IlliniAmy

Better defense, and provides more value offensively over the average SS/3B than Pujols does over the average 1B. From the Hardball Times: I think A-Rod's defensive abilities are all about perception and what the media has tried to sell us.

I thought some of you might appreciate this picture that I posted on another forum. FYI (for those who don't already know): I'm a Cardinal fan, but my husband is a Cub fan. The boy in the photo is our son. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/IlliniAmy/PrestonMad.jpg

You're too cute, gus_dog. 8)

1. The Astros are playing these games under a "must-win" situation. 2. The Cardinals are playing these games under a "must-we-play-these" situation. 3. Although Carpenter is making me nervous, it's true that he's not going to show the Astros his best stuff shortly before the Cards might play them in the post-season. 4. Anyone who thinks Tony La Russa, a man who wouldn't back off a checkers match with his 3-year old daughter, would "lay down" for another MLB team loses credibility. 5. The Cardinals can't afford any more injuries. Even Larry Walker admitted to being hesitant to dive for a ball right now. 6. The 2004 Cardinals were 2-5 the last 7 games of the regular season....and went on to the World Series. 7. The 2000 Yankees were 0-7 the last 7 games of the regular season....and went on to win the World Series. 8. Although as a Cardinal fan, it sucks to watch my favorite team get swept at home, I refuse to panic.

How many starters did the Cardinals use in 2002?

My hubby (Cub fan) said he would go camping in Alaska if it's a White Sox/Cardinal World Series. (I'll be happy to pack his bags) :D

Buehrle's consective streak was "at least 6 innings pitched", not necessarily quality starts.

That's an easy one...yes. However, I think that a certain other pitcher, who is also producing one of the most dominating pitching performances of modern times, who just doesn't happen to have the career clout, also deserves the Cy Young.

I take wins out of the equation, no problem. It's still not clear to me.

1. If the Cubs had the same winning percentage against every team that they played as they do against the Cardinals, they'd not only be in first place, they'd have the best record in all of baseball. 2. Anyone else find it ironic that now that the Cubs have finally figured out how to win a series at Busch Stadium (II), the Cardinals are going to implode the place?

Thank you. That's been my point all along. I realize I haven't contributed to this thread at all, but after 41 pages, this is the conclusion? :wink: 8) I like your style. I'm just defending against the "Carpenter doesn't deserve it" theories. Either candidate could justifiably win it....which means either candidate "should" win it.

Thank you. That's been my point all along.

Once again, A SURPLUS OF RUN SUPPORT IN NO WAY DIMINISHES CARPENTER'S VALUE!

Um, no. You can't win if you don't score. You can pitch 50 straight scoreless innings, but it means nothing if you're team can't score. You cannot win without scoring at least one run. (Negatives are impossible in baseball, even if Ditka is on the mound) I think her point with the "game of chicken" is that if Clemens can hold the other team for another inning or two, then he puts his team in a better position to win in the late innings. In other words, if Clemens holds the other team scoreless into the 9th, then Houston might be able to "play for a run", by bunting a guy over or something, and win the game with one run. As it stands, Houston's bullpen gives up a couple of runs, and Houston is forced to play for a big inning late in the game, sometimes. It's nitpicking a little, but it's not completely irrelevant. No, it's nitpicking alot, and the fact that such scenarios are even brought into the argument illustrates how tenuous the argument is. I'm done too. Have a nice day, everyone. :D nitpicking? With that empty accusation, it's no wonder you're done. Have a nice afternoon.

But that logic is flawed, in eight of Clemens starts he got ZERO runs of suport. I dont care how many shutout innings you throw simple rule, if your team doesnt score you CANT win. Yes you can....if you force the other team to go to their bullpen first, you've got a better chance of winning. It's like a game of chicken and Carpenter is much better at it than Clemens (this year). By the way, your comment works in the reverse. The other team can't beat you if you don't allow them to score any runs. :wink:

Here's what I believe. I believe that if Carpenter is pitching for the Astros, with the same run support as Clemens, Carpenter has more than 11 wins. You wanna know why? Because Carpenter will maintain the shutout deeper into the game, giving his team a chance to win and/or go into extra innings. There are far fewer chances for the bullpen to blow the game like they have for Clemens. He needs to go out and earn those wins. Whew....just a week ago I was thinking it was a pretty even pick for the Cy Young, but I find myself working so hard to prove Carpenter a worthy candidate, that I think he's got a slight edge for winning it too.

Sort of like how Carp finished the game vs the Astro's Saturday? (which by the way, was the most pitches he'd thrown in a game all year, I do believe -- should be the best example for your argument) How tired does this sound? Orlando Palmeiro, by the way is batting .302 so far this year (or at least, he was as of Saturday).

So let me get this straight... you'd rather put a dead tired starter on the mound in the 9th inning with the game on the line, than a dominating closer that is fresh, and is paid to slam the door? Wow. Going the distance is fine. But you put the pitcher out there that is going to help your team win the most. A dead tired guy, and a fresh guy that is extremely dominant shouldn't even be an argument. (Why do I keep getting sucked in....it's like going by a car accident...I keep looking when I should look at the road and drive away) dead tired? 92 pitches is dead tired? 101 pitches is dead tired? Good grief. You need to put a call into Dusty Baker...he left Prior in for over 130.

K-Town, take your own advice....it's not worth it. A couple of these guys are wearing glasses so darkly Cubbie blue that the butter on their morning toasts must look like green mold. My husband is a Cub fan and while on some issues, he can pester the hell out of me (usually just to be ornery), even he can see the value in having a pitcher throw complete games and preserve the bullpen vs being yanked after the 6th inning (7th if the team's lucky) all season long. I'd rather debate him on Cardinal/Cub issues than people who are so frustrated and jealous that they can't see the value of a pitcher simply because he's wearing a Cardinal uniform. FWIW, I think Prior's awesome and you were correct, I'd love to have him on my team. I think it sucks for Derrek Lee that his chances for the MVP are swirling down the toilet with Cubs' playoff chances. I've even gained (some) respect for Carlos Zambrano this year, who I think may finally be getting his "demons" in check. As a Cardinal fan, that's pretty scary, because he already has the great stuff; now that his mental issues seem to be ironing themselves out as well, we could be in for a heap of trouble. I think Greg Maddux is one of the classiest competitors to don a MLB uniform. I guarantee you if Mark Prior had Chris Carpenter's 2005 stats, I'd love to see him win the Cy Young over Roger Clemens. I'm glad that people with more complex mind sets get to decide who "should" win the Cy Young Award, otherwise, as I previously suggested, the name of the award should be changed to "Congratulations, you had the best ERA in the N.L. this year".

It's not the "Award for having the best ERA". It's the Cy Young Award for the Best Pitcher. It's not Carpenter's fault that he's had great run support, any more than it's Clemens' fault that he's had a lack of it. For those of you who think it should be Clemens in a landslide, and don't think Wins should factor into it, fine. However, that means that Clemens' award last year was a sham. Furthermore, even if wins aren't considered, Carpenter is still a legitimate candidate. He's pitched 7 complete games, with 4 shutouts. He and Roger have thrown a similar number of pitches, but Chris has efficiently spread those pitches out over more innings.

I want to clarify something. Dunc's 4 games aren't that out of line if the punishment was based on the fact that Duncan started running towards the Pirates dugout after the whole brawl looked like it was over. My bone of contention with gus_dog is that he seems to think that 4 games is light and that the punishment is simply based on "something that must have precipitated" the punch. gus_dog doesn't even seem to suggest what that something must be, but is merely assuming that because Duncan got punched, something must have happened to warrant it. Do you also assume that if a girl gets raped, something must have happened to warrant it?

I thought he admitted that he purposely threw behind a batter? Check out the stats on the number of Cardinals players hit vs the number of batters hit by Cardinal pitchers. There is quite a discrepancy. If you want to claim that Duncan shouldn't have been talking to Rick White during batting practice, then maybe MLB needs to make each batting practice "closed" to the opposing team. Players and personnel from each team are out there informally chatting all of the time. Even if you want to say that it breaks an unwritten rule for Dunc to directly ask White about the pitch, do you really think his actions of doing so warrant 4 games? If you do, you're not the unbiased Cub fan I thought you were, gus_dog. Bottom line: If Gerald Perry doesn't throw that punch, this is not in the news and there are no suspensions.

I thought he admitted that he purposely threw behind a batter? Check out the stats on the number of Cardinals players hit vs the number of batters hit by Cardinal pitchers. There is quite a discrepancy. If you want to claim that Duncan shouldn't have been talking to Rick White during batting practice, then maybe MLB needs to make each batting practice "closed" to the opposing team. Players and personnel from each team are out there informally chatting all of the time. Even if you want to say that it breaks an unwritten rule for Dunc to directly ask White about the pitch, do you really think his actions of doing so warrant 4 games? If you do, you're not the unbiased Cub fan I thought you were, gus_dog. Bottom line: If Gerald Perry doesn't throw that punch, this is not in the news and there are no suspensions.

well, planet, at the time you stated this, I would have agreed with you. Who knew? The Cardinals are currently on pace to break the team record (192 in 1974) for double plays turned in a season (over 200). Yeah big shock Eckstein and Grudz both became better players once they donned the Red. The impact of the Secret Weapon, Jose Oquendo. Next great Cardinal Manager!!! Bite your tongue. 8) I'm holding out for Mike Matheny to take that slot. :wink:

Didn't you see Duncan viciously strike Perry's fist with his face? That's grounds for a suspension in my book. Ahhh....snoodmonger's wittiness...it's a welcome sight! :D