Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[K-Town]

why dont you make an argument for steve trachsel next ktown? his era is 0.00.

 

this thread is such a complete joke.

 

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that.

 

cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins.

 

Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink:

[treebird]

why dont you make an argument for steve trachsel next ktown? his era is 0.00.

 

this thread is such a complete joke.

 

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that.

 

cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins.

 

Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink:

 

isnt it ironic that i have a bigger ignore list now WINK

[indifferent]

Honestly, what is wrong with have the CY runner up and the MVP runner up on your team? No other team can say that. I know no one remembers the runner up, but these two guys are the reason we're in the position we are.

[K-Town]

why dont you make an argument for steve trachsel next ktown? his era is 0.00.

 

this thread is such a complete joke.

 

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that.

 

cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins.

 

Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink:

 

isnt it ironic that i have a bigger ignore list now WINK

 

Look, I'm not sure why you all take offense to a Cardinal fan arguing in favor or Chris Carpenter. You all seen to take it so personally, using words like "dense", "joke", etc. Relax a little. The truth of the matter is that Cubs' fans aren't going to find a way to give Carpenter the benefit of the doubt (you hate us, just admit it, and I don't blame you), and Cardinal fans aren't going to find a way to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. By most acounts, it's pretty much a dead heat right now. Pretending it's a "no-brainer" is just ignoring the obvious.

[K-Town]

Honestly, what is wrong with have the CY runner up and the MVP runner up on your team? No other team can say that. I know no one remembers the runner up, but these two guys are the reason we're in the position we are.

 

There's nothing wrong with it. What's wrong with making a case, based on history (it's not like I'm just making stuff up randomly), for a player on my favorite team to win the Cy Young Award?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

why dont you make an argument for steve trachsel next ktown? his era is 0.00.

 

this thread is such a complete joke.

 

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that.

 

cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins.

 

Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink:

 

I think you may be stepping over the line toward trolling here. The wink doesn't change that.

 

Why not start this debate at some other boards? Try http://www.orangewhoopass.com and see what they think. How about SOSH and see what they think? My guess is that those who value statistical analysis go with Clemens. Our argument has nothing to do with bias, yours however... :-k

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

why dont you make an argument for steve trachsel next ktown? his era is 0.00.

 

this thread is such a complete joke.

 

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that.

 

cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins.

 

Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink:

 

isnt it ironic that i have a bigger ignore list now WINK

 

Look, I'm not sure why you all take offense to a Cardinal fan arguing in favor or Chris Carpenter. You all seen to take it so personally, using words like "dense", "joke", etc. Relax a little. The truth of the matter is that Cubs' fans aren't going to find a way to give Carpenter the benefit of the doubt (you hate us, just admit it, and I don't blame you), and Cardinal fans aren't going to find a way to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. By most acounts, it's pretty much a dead heat right now. Pretending it's a "no-brainer" is just ignoring the obvious.

 

What's interesting is that most of us, and I can accurately speak for myself here, hate the Astros just as much. Now, maybe my bias gets in the way when I say Lee should be the MVP, but there's no bias at work here. At least not on this side of the argument.

[imb]

Sure, the Voters are going to give the award to Carpenter. They've proven that they look at wins as a determining factor before, and the fact is, Carpenter has more wins than Clemens, despite not pitching as well.

 

You can come up with whatever weird arguments you want, (Carpenter not pitching in tight games, Carpenter pitching more innings etc...), but the fact is, Clemens has been a better pitcher this season. I don't see how anyone that isn't wearing incredibly bright red sunglasses couldn't see this.

 

Now, does Clemens being the better pitcher mean he deserves to win the Cy Young? Yes. Does it mean that the voters will vote for him? No, look at previous years, it doesn't happen that way, but it should.

[K-Town]

why dont you make an argument for steve trachsel next ktown? his era is 0.00.

 

this thread is such a complete joke.

 

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that.

 

cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins.

 

Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink:

 

I think you may be stepping over the line toward trolling here. The wink doesn't change that.

 

Why not start this debate at some other boards? Try http://www.orangewhoopass.com and see what they think. How about SOSH and see what they think? My guess is that those who value statistical analysis go with Clemens. Our argument has nothing to do with bias, yours however... :-k

 

You're probably right, the comment was uncalled for. It wasn't meant in an offensive way, but this is probably the wrong forum for it. Apologies.

 

Where does it say that the Cy Young is all about certain stats? Heck, Cy Young himself isn't, statistically, the best pitcher of all time..... probably not even the best of his era.

[K-Town]

Sure, the Voters are going to give the award to Carpenter. They've proven that they look at wins as a determining factor before, and the fact is, Carpenter has more wins than Clemens, despite not pitching as well.

 

You can come up with whatever weird arguments you want, (Carpenter not pitching in tight games, Carpenter pitching more innings etc...), but the fact is, Clemens has been a better pitcher this season. I don't see how anyone that isn't wearing incredibly bright red sunglasses couldn't see this.

 

Now, does Clemens being the better pitcher mean he deserves to win the Cy Young? Yes. Does it mean that the voters will vote for him? No, look at previous years, it doesn't happen that way, but it should.

 

Why should it? Cy Young wasn't the "best pitcher" of his time.

 

Like I said, it's silly to ignore Carpenter's extra 30 innings that he'll pitch this year, but not ignore his horrible 3.1 innings back in April.

[K-Town]

I'm curious, why do Cubs' fans hate the Astros as much as they do the Cardinals? What's the history behind that?

[imb]

There's a difference between ignoring 30 innings that haven't happened, and 3.1 innings that did.

[K-Town]

There's a difference between ignoring 30 innings that haven't happened, and 3.1 innings that did.

 

No more different than ignoring 8 or 10 wins that "didn't happen, but might have, if he had the run support".

[imb]

No it isn't, not at all actually. You're still focusing your agument on wins, which are useless as a tool to look at pitcher performance. I wouldn't expect you to agree with this, as you've proven your statistical ignorance for the last 20 pages.

 

Clemens has been a superior pitcher this season. This isn't taking anything away from Carpenter, who has had one of the better pitching seasons of the last 10 years. It's much like Pujols losing the MVP to Bonds the last few seasons, Pujols had incredible years, it was just too bad they had to coincide with Bonds seasons.

[CuseCubFan69]

Put Clemens on the Cards and put Carpenter on the Astros and I think we would see a difference in the win totals.

[imb]

Just to point it out further, according to WSAB (win shares above bench)

 

WSAB is a refined approach to Win Shares, in which each player's total Win Shares are compared to the Win Shares an average bench player would have received, given that player's time at bat, on the mound or in the field (listed as Expected Win Shares). This is an important adjustment to Win Shares, as we discovered during the 2003-2004 offseason. The bench player approach is explained in this article. It is essentially 75% of Expected Win Shares for all players except Starting Pitchers, for whom it is 60% of Expected Win Shares.

 

Clemens-18

Willis-13

Oswalt-13

Carpenter-11

Zambrano-11

Smoltz-11

[gus_dog]

Put Clemens on the Cards and put Carpenter on the Astros and I think we would see a difference in the win totals.

 

Yes, and if that were the case, K-Town would be arguing for Clemens because of his being a Cardinal, uh, no, I meant to say because of his win total.

 

Although, both would likely be true.

 

I make this observation based solely on the previous pages within this thread, and it is, of course, JMHO.

Edited August 31, 2005 by gus_dog

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm curious, why do Cubs' fans hate the Astros as much as they do the Cardinals? What's the history behind that?

 

I live closer to Houston than I do St. Louis so I deal with more Astro fans than I do Cardinal fans. They're also just as much a rival divisionally as the Cardinals are. Add to that the bad blood between the two teams last season combined with Berkman "The Faker", Craig "Mr. Lean into Pitches" Biggio, a stupid ballpark with a flagpole in fair terrirtory and a hill in CF, and a bunch of arrogant Texas bastages and I think you have the ingredients for full-blown hatred.

[K-Town]

Put Clemens on the Cards and put Carpenter on the Astros and I think we would see a difference in the win totals.

 

Yes, and if that were the case, K-Town would be arguing for Clemens because of his being a Cardinal, uh, no, I meant to say because of his win total.

 

Although, both would likely be true.

 

I make this observation based solely on the previous pages within this thread, and it is, of course, JMHO.

 

Absolutely, and why shouldn't I? I wouldn't be much of a Cardinal fan if I didn't want my guy to win, would I?

 

 

Based on the Cy Young precedence that's been set, Carpenter deserves the Cy Young Award this year.

 

Like I said, I'm not sure why you all take it so personally........(some of you are downright testy about it), or why it's worth 20+ pages of effort from fans of a team who don't even have a horse in the race. I don't get it, unless it boils down the your hatred for the Cardinals, which is perfectly acceptable as long as you're willing to own that perspective, just as I own my Cardinal bias.

[K-Town]

Put Clemens on the Cards and put Carpenter on the Astros and I think we would see a difference in the win totals.

 

Here we go with the "what if" game again.........

 

You have no idea. If Clemens had the run support, he may be more aggressive, make more mistakes, and be able to go deeper into games. If Carpenter had less run support, he may be less aggressive, and not make as many mistakes. It's not as black & white as you want to pretend. Carpenter certainly has the ability to shut the opponent down better than Clemens does (as evident by the fact that he's pitched 4 of the top 5 games in the NL this year). He just hasn't needed to do that very often.

Edited August 31, 2005 by K-Town

[K-Town]

No it isn't, not at all actually. You're still focusing your agument on wins, which are useless as a tool to look at pitcher performance. I wouldn't expect you to agree with this, as you've proven your statistical ignorance for the last 20 pages.

 

I'm not "ignorant". I understand your statistics perfectly. I just don't care, actually, because that's not what the Cy Young Award represents, in my opinion. I've said that repeatedly.

[imb]

No it isn't, not at all actually. You're still focusing your agument on wins, which are useless as a tool to look at pitcher performance. I wouldn't expect you to agree with this, as you've proven your statistical ignorance for the last 20 pages.

 

I'm not "ignorant". I understand your statistics perfectly. I just don't care, actually.

 

Not caring about pertinent statistics is pretty much the definition of ignorance, actually.

 

I would have no problem saying that Carpenter deserved the Cy Young, if he actually did. I've been saying all year that I thought Pujols would deserve the MVP by the time the season ended, so you shouldnt act like I have some anti-Cardinal bias that is factoring into my decision.

 

Nice Ninja Edit. If you want the Cy Young award to go to the "Pitcher who wins a bunch of games on a team that you root for", then it is a worthless award, and you should probably be circle jerking with fellow Cardinal fans somewhere else.

[AC036198]

I'm curious, why do Cubs' fans hate the Astros as much as they do the Cardinals? What's the history behind that?

Oswalt plunking Barrett and the fact they're as good a rival as the Cards. When Tribune did a comparision b/t the Cubs and Red Sox showing the parelles b/t the 2, public enemy # 1 was Roy Oswalt, not LaRussa or Morris, or any other Cardinal.

[1908]

Like I said, I'm not sure why you all take it so personally........(some of you are downright testy about it), or why it's worth 20+ pages of effort from fans of a team who don't even have a horse in the race. I don't get it, unless it boils down the your hatred for the Cardinals, which is perfectly acceptable as long as you're willing to own that perspective, just as I own my Cardinal bias.

Why is it worth 20+ pages of effort for you to argue with a bunch of Cubs fans if you believe we're so biased? I think many here are "testy" because you seem to be ignoring an avalanche of statistical evidence. I know you've freely admitted your fan bias on many occasions. I suspect many are just surprised -- and frustrated -- by it's extent.

[SouthSideRyan]

Hmmmmm to convince K-Town, I have to think like K-Town!

 

I think it's obvious to everyone that it's much more difficult to pitch in clutch situations than in easy situations. Since Carpenter has had such run support all year he's been able to relax while pitching and not have to deal with high pressure situations.

 

Clemens on the other hand has nearly every game be a near shutout for his offense and therefore needs to step it up in the CLUTCH!!

 

Additionally, Carpenter hasn't been in a race for a playoff spot in 2 months. Clemens's starts MATTER more becuase his team is fighting for a playoff spot the whole year. I once again revert to my trained monkey factor in that a trained monkey could have made some of Carpenter's starts this year and they could still be in the playoffs easily. A trained monkey making Clemens's starts would sink the Astros for good.

 

Clemens > Carpenter