Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have a Manager Like This

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

On ESPNInsider, Jerry Crasnik writes about how Bobby Cox goes about making out a line-up.

 

Reading it is rather refreshing. If always felt that Cox and Shurholz (sp?) were the best manager-GM tandem in the league. They've done an excellent job winning at the ML level and they've done so while producing a farm system that has produced grade A major league players.

 

A few refreshing comments from Cox in the article.

 

I get tickled when I hear a manager say, "I have to drop this guy to seventh." My attitude is, just do it. I know it bothers a lot of guys, because everybody has a little pride. But if a player is hurting you in a certain spot, you bring him in and tell him. I always talk to a guy first before I drop him down in the order.

 

But my favorite:

 

I don't believe in doing things to take pressure off young players. We brought up Johnson from Triple-A and I hit him third right away. The kid has always hit, and he walks. He has a great eye. He went 1-for-30 and even some of our people wanted to send him back. But he hit about seven balls good and he walked about seven times during that stretch. I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

[burnt out cubbie fan]

*swoon*

[1wizard]

I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

You sure that last line wasn't from the Dusty archive.

[OleMissCub]

*swoon*

 

ditto

[gus_dog]

I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

You sure that last line wasn't from the Dusty archive.

 

Only if he was discussing a washed up veteran/utility player.

[JC]

 

But my favorite:

 

I don't believe in doing things to take pressure off young players. We brought up Johnson from Triple-A and I hit him third right away. The kid has always hit, and he walks. He has a great eye. He went 1-for-30 and even some of our people wanted to send him back. But he hit about seven balls good and he walked about seven times during that stretch. I wouldn't take him out of there for anything.

 

 

God, am I tired of Baker...

[USSoccer]

He's like the exact opposite of Dusty. If only...

[frostwyrm]

What I really like about Cox and Shuerholz is that they seem to have a unified plan. They work as a team. For example, when Shuerholz calls up a prized prospect you see Cox actually let the kid start evey day. Then there's Baker and Hendry, who seem to have separate agendas sometimes. Hendry will call up a prized prospect and then Baker lets him rot in a lefty-only platoon. Or trading for Hairston, then finding out Dusty doesn't even want Hairston. Or talking up Dubois as a potential rookie of the year when Baker had already planned to give the starting LF job to Hollandsworth. It makes me wonder if Baker and Hendry even communicate.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I like Hendry as a GM. I've stated so many times. But if I could get Schurholz and Cox, that's the best tandem around.

 

I heard an interview by Schurholz on XM with Cal and Billy Ripken. Very informative. He knows what he's doing and sticks to the plan. Like the Cubs, Schurholz values tools in prospects but he made it clear that there needs to be strong people in the player development areas. I wonder if that might be where we are lacking.

 

Also, during Cox's regime look at the number of good position players who were brought up and given significant time as rookies: Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Rafeal Furcal, Marcus Giles, and now Adam LaRoche, Kelly Johnson, Kelly Mann, Wilson Betemit, and Jeff Francoer.

 

There are other quality guys that are no longer on the Braves that they did the same thing with like Klesko.

[USSoccer]

I like Hendry as a GM. I've stated so many times. But if I could get Schurholz and Cox, that's the best tandem around.

 

I heard an interview by Schurholz on XM with Cal and Billy Ripken. Very informative. He knows what he's doing and sticks to the plan. Like the Cubs, Schurholz values tools in prospects but he made it clear that there needs to be strong people in the player development areas. I wonder if that might be where we are lacking.

 

Also, during Cox's regime look at the number of good position players who were brought up and given significant time as rookies: Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Rafeal Furcal, Marcus Giles, and now Adam LaRoche, Kelly Johnson, Kelly Mann, Wilson Betemit, and Jeff Francoer.

 

There are other quality guys that are no longer on the Braves that they did the same thing with like Klesko.

 

Jermaine Dye as well.

[UK1679666180]

Cox has had the luxury of being a former GM in a system very similar in Toronto that Schuerholz was under out in KC.

 

They have very similar beliefs on how to build a club, ironically it runs parallel to how I believe an organization should be structured.

[USSoccer]

What I don't get is why Hendry hired a manager with the opposite beliefs about player development that he does. If Hendry knows the importance of young players, as he must having directed the farm system, then why would he entrust this system to Baker? Why would he allow Baker to have "his guys" who aren't really producing blocking productive young players?

 

 

Something doesn't add up.

[hawkeyecub]

They have very similar beliefs on how to build a club, ironically it runs parallel to how I believe an organization should be structured.

 

In what regards?

[Fred Hornkohl]

I like Hendry as a GM. I've stated so many times. But if I could get Schurholz and Cox, that's the best tandem around.

 

That's no understatement.

 

          1991 thru 2004                            World Series
team                        W       L     pct    PA     W     L

Atlanta Braves           1341     859   0.610    13     1     4
San Francisco Giants     1179    1024   0.535     4     0     1
Houston Astros           1166    1037   0.529     5     0     0
St. Louis Cardinals      1163    1037   0.529     5     0     1
Los Angeles Dodgers      1153    1049   0.524     3     0     0
Arizona Diamondbacks      575     559   0.507     3     1     0
Cincinnati Reds          1092    1111   0.496     0     0     0
New York Mets            1064    1133   0.484     2     0     1
Chicago Cubs             1059    1141   0.481     2     0     0
Washington Nationals     1059    1142   0.481     0     0     0
Philadelphia Phillies    1058    1155   0.478     1     0     1
San Diego Padres         1055    1150   0.478     2     0     1
Colorado Rockies          882     999   0.469     1     0     0
Florida Marlins           880     997   0.469     2     2     0
Pittsburgh Pirates       1029    1170   0.468     2     0     0
Milwaukee Brewers        1000    1200   0.455     0     0     0

[UK1679666180]

They have very similar beliefs on how to build a club, ironically it runs parallel to how I believe an organization should be structured.

 

In what regards?

 

10 year plan, build thru minor league pitching have scouts, instructors, and everyone in-between all on the same page. Draft high ceiling players and put faith into their ability to develop a player from within. Unlike many teams that draft college players, be willing to put faith in their ability to develop a HS player with a high ceiling and risk a potential bust.

 

Baseball starts and ends with scouts and instructors as far as the ability to find the right players and maximize those abilities, in regards to building a system from the btm up.

 

Everything starts at the btm, which is why I'd like to see the Cubs allocate more resources towards scouting and hiring top notch instructors along the way.

 

I watched the Cubs have a long-term plan and watched it turn into a short-term goal. They were on the right track (even during the '02 season), now I'm not sure which direction they are heading. Are they looking long-term or "waiting till next year"? Hendry has been wise as far as getting important players in their prime, which has been valuable but expensive as far as salaries.

 

My impression is that the Cubs have sacrificed scouting and signing expenses of draft picks and international FAs for current payroll, which I don't agree with.

[dalgreen]

What I don't get is why Hendry hired a manager with the opposite beliefs about player development that he does. If Hendry knows the importance of young players, as he must having directed the farm system, then why would he entrust this system to Baker? Why would he allow Baker to have "his guys" who aren't really producing blocking productive young players?

 

 

Something doesn't add up.

 

I think the two are similiar in a lot of ways than what people want to believe. If Hendry really had intentions of Dubois playing everyday vs. just platooning he wouldn't have signed Hollandsworth and Burnitz. If he really wanted Cedeno to be on the team, he wouldn't have signed Macias and Perez. Now you can say that Hendry, unlike Baker, is more willing to correct initial mistakes, but I don't think they are total opposites when it comes to player development.

[ltb]

If he really wanted Cedeno to be on the team, he wouldn't have signed Macias and Perez.

 

wrong.

 

cedeno is on the big league club because he was hitting .370 in iowa. based on what he did last year, he wouldn't have merited being called up to chicago. neifi and macias had to be signed a *little* before this year started.

[frostwyrm]

What I don't get is why Hendry hired a manager with the opposite beliefs about player development that he does. If Hendry knows the importance of young players, as he must having directed the farm system, then why would he entrust this system to Baker? Why would he allow Baker to have "his guys" who aren't really producing blocking productive young players?

 

 

Something doesn't add up.

 

I think the two are similiar in a lot of ways than what people want to believe. If Hendry really had intentions of Dubois playing everyday vs. just platooning he wouldn't have signed Hollandsworth and Burnitz. If he really wanted Cedeno to be on the team, he wouldn't have signed Macias and Perez. Now you can say that Hendry, unlike Baker, is more willing to correct initial mistakes, but I don't think they are total opposites when it comes to player development.

 

I really doubt Hendry envisioned Dubois starting only vs. lefties, as Dusty did. Hendry touted Dubois as a potential Rookie of the Year, which would be an impossible goal for a rookie who doesn't face righties.

[dalgreen]

If he really wanted Cedeno to be on the team, he wouldn't have signed Macias and Perez.

 

wrong.

 

cedeno is on the big league club because he was hitting .370 in iowa. based on what he did last year, he wouldn't have merited being called up to chicago. neifi and macias had to be signed a *little* before this year started.

 

I understand that. My point was if he thought (and I know Cedeno had a not so stellar season last year) Cedeno could help this club, he perhaps wouldn't made it easier for him to make this team. If you look at the number of middle infielders we had prior to Nomar's injury, Cedeno wouldn't have been a bad selection as a 25th man, instead of shelling nearly $2 million out to Perez and Macias.

[ltb]

If he really wanted Cedeno to be on the team, he wouldn't have signed Macias and Perez.

 

wrong.

 

cedeno is on the big league club because he was hitting .370 in iowa. based on what he did last year, he wouldn't have merited being called up to chicago. neifi and macias had to be signed a *little* before this year started.

 

I understand that. My point was if he thought (and I know Cedeno had a not so stellar season last year) Cedeno could help this club, he perhaps wouldn't made it easier for him to make this team. If you look at the number of middle infielders we had prior to Nomar's injury, Cedeno wouldn't have been a bad selection as a 25th man, instead of shelling nearly $2 million out to Perez and Macias.

 

yeah, i definitely agree. but then again, i'd take a 24-man roster over a 25-man roster with macias while dusty is managing.

[dalgreen]

What I don't get is why Hendry hired a manager with the opposite beliefs about player development that he does. If Hendry knows the importance of young players, as he must having directed the farm system, then why would he entrust this system to Baker? Why would he allow Baker to have "his guys" who aren't really producing blocking productive young players?

 

 

Something doesn't add up.

 

I think the two are similiar in a lot of ways than what people want to believe. If Hendry really had intentions of Dubois playing everyday vs. just platooning he wouldn't have signed Hollandsworth and Burnitz. If he really wanted Cedeno to be on the team, he wouldn't have signed Macias and Perez. Now you can say that Hendry, unlike Baker, is more willing to correct initial mistakes, but I don't think they are total opposites when it comes to player development.

 

I really doubt Hendry envisioned Dubois starting only vs. lefties, as Dusty did. Hendry touted Dubois as a potential Rookie of the Year, which would be an impossible goal for a rookie who doesn't face righties.

 

First, let me know if you're on the Hendry can do no wrong and Baker can do no right train, so at least then I'll know what I'm dealing with. My claim is based on 1) Hendry and Baker promising Hollandsworth more playing time... that's why Holla signed. There was a huge thread on that dumb decision back in December. 2)What in the world is the purpose of signing Burnitz then? If they already promised Hollandsworth more playing time, than he could've easily not signed Burnitz and had Holla in right and Dubois in left. Why the need for two left hitting corner outfielders if you really want a right handed everyday corner outfielder?

[hawkeyecub]

Nevermind UK, for some reason (probably that I had just waken up) I read your initial post as "runs opposite to how I believe an organization should be structured." I was wondering what you disagreed with as far as the Braves organization went.

 

I've read your opinions on organizational structure before and feel much the same way.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

They have very similar beliefs on how to build a club, ironically it runs parallel to how I believe an organization should be structured.

 

In what regards?

 

10 year plan, build thru minor league pitching have scouts, instructors, and everyone in-between all on the same page. Draft high ceiling players and put faith into their ability to develop a player from within. Unlike many teams that draft college players, be willing to put faith in their ability to develop a HS player with a high ceiling and risk a potential bust.

 

Baseball starts and ends with scouts and instructors as far as the ability to find the right players and maximize those abilities, in regards to building a system from the btm up.

 

Everything starts at the btm, which is why I'd like to see the Cubs allocate more resources towards scouting and hiring top notch instructors along the way.

 

I watched the Cubs have a long-term plan and watched it turn into a short-term goal. They were on the right track (even during the '02 season), now I'm not sure which direction they are heading. Are they looking long-term or "waiting till next year"? Hendry has been wise as far as getting important players in their prime, which has been valuable but expensive as far as salaries.

 

My impression is that the Cubs have sacrificed scouting and signing expenses of draft picks and international FAs for current payroll, which I don't agree with.

I agree. It is a shame that they have decreased the amount of funds they put into international signings recently. That is really a good way to help build a farm system.

[XZero771679666304]

 

First, let me know if you're on the Hendry can do no wrong and Baker can do no right train, so at least then I'll know what I'm dealing with. My claim is based on 1) Hendry and Baker promising Hollandsworth more playing time... that's why Holla signed. There was a huge thread on that dumb decision back in December. 2)What in the world is the purpose of signing Burnitz then? If they already promised Hollandsworth more playing time, than he could've easily not signed Burnitz and had Holla in right and Dubois in left. Why the need for two left hitting corner outfielders if you really want a right handed everyday corner outfielder?

 

Can you imagine if it was Holla in right and Dubois in left and Dubois tanked? Ugh. Holla is a guy who has never put up corner OF numbers even in a full season, and Dubois is unproven at the big leuague level. A proven corner OF had to be signed. If Hendry promised Holla more PT when he signed, that was definitely a bad move. I can't speculate as to what exactly they were thinking more playing time meant, because Todd didn't get alot last year. But somehow I doubt they meant a being a full time starter. Hendry might have not, and Dusty probably did. Who knows. Hendry deserves blame for the pretenses under which he was signed. I think Hendry intended for Dubois to play alot more, but that is a mess of his own making if he promised Holla more PT, especially knowing Dusty's extreme loyalty to vets.

 

But you'd need a guy like Holla on the bench. He is the lefty power bat off the bench that a good team needs. His signing was a good one, but promising him more PT was a mistake. And Perez was signed to be a bench player. I'm sure Jim, like most other people, thought Nomar was healthy, especially after he tore it up in ST. Certainly no one envisioned Neifi being in the position he is now. The mess with Cedeno is in no was Hendry's fault. There was no way to know Cedeno would be ripping up AAA, and that Nomar would be injured and Neifi would be the everyday SS, even after he took a statistical nosedive.

 

While Hendry has made some bad moves, I sincerely believe he thought Cedeno would get more PT, and Baker was cryptic enough in their discussion about it that Jim believed he would comply. If I am right, that was a foolish assumption, but the move makes no sense otherwise. They could have just kept Wilson if they know Neifi would keep playing all the time.

 

You can't really say that if Hendry wanted the kids to play he wouldn't have signed Holla, Neifi and Macias. Holla and Neifi at least are good bench guys. A team needs those. You can't build a team with none of the role players that Dusty likes because you need those guys. You need some good veterans on your bench, but with Dusty you can't have that and see your kids play. I also believe that Dusty was an impulse big name signing, meant to sent a message that the Cubs wanted to win. I think that MacPhail and Hendry were so caught up in that they failed to really look at the details. This was another front office mistake, IMO.

 

However looking at this season, you have to assign more blame to Baker than Hendry. Like I said in another thread, Dusty has made the absolute worst out of a questionable situation.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

In the Schurholtz interview that I alluded to in another post, I was very impressed with what he said. Contrary to the Billy Beane school of thought, Shurholtz said he preferred to draft high school players over college players because he wouldn't have to reteach them.

 

He also emphasized that the player development side was equally important to the scouting side of things. He said the scouts must provide players with adequate tools and then it is up to his development people to hone and sharpen those tools.

 

I was very impressed and his record shows the fruits of his labor.

 

I think Hendry is a fine GM. We lack the right manager and in some regards I wonder if we have the right personel in player development.