Dear Cubs - don't let the Maddux option vest

[biittner77]

How bad would Maddux have to pitch to get pulled from the rotation? He'd have to be at least worse than Estes and I'm not sure that's even possible. If that happened I'd hope Maddux would retire rather than embarass himself.

 

In any event, Maddux will be fine. They've been trying to bury him for 5 years now and every late summer he seems to come through. He may not be worth the money he's making but the Cubs have bargains everywhere else in the rotation with the exception of Wood.

[badgercub]

While I agree Maddux is overpaid, The Cubs are still in the race. Prior and Wood are both on the DL and we have seen what Koronka can do. If you want to limit Maddux innings and skp some of his starts, who in the heck are you going to have pitch? Wood and Prior are still big "ifs" there is no guarantee they will stay healthy. Financially you may want to rid yourself of Maddux but from a baseball perspective, at least while you are still in the race, you have no other options.

[CubinNY]

How bad would Maddux have to pitch to get pulled from the rotation? He'd have to be at least worse than Estes and I'm not sure that's even possible. If that happened I'd hope Maddux would retire rather than embarass himself.

 

In any event, Maddux will be fine. They've been trying to bury him for 5 years now and every late summer he seems to come through. He may not be worth the money he's making but the Cubs have bargains everywhere else in the rotation with the exception of Wood.

 

I agree completely. Good post

[goonys evil twin]

How bad would Maddux have to pitch to get pulled from the rotation? He'd have to be at least worse than Estes and I'm not sure that's even possible. If that happened I'd hope Maddux would retire rather than embarass himself.

 

In any event, Maddux will be fine. They've been trying to bury him for 5 years now and every late summer he seems to come through. He may not be worth the money he's making but the Cubs have bargains everywhere else in the rotation with the exception of Wood.

 

I agree completely. Good post

 

At what point do you stop just saying "he'll be fine"? I don't know who has been trying to bury him for 5 years now. In the past he'd have a bad game or two, but not like he has over the past year and a half. Down the stretch last year he had an ERA over 4. He didn't "come through" then. I am guessing he's got a great month in him still this year, maybe two. But you don't pay $9 million for a month or two of great work. You pay for the season.

 

Regardless, you can't pull him from the rotation. The only way he doesn't get the option picked up is if he continues to suck so bad he keeps getting pulled in the 4th inning, or he gets injured. And obviously neither of those is a good thing. So maybe he'll retire, or they can trade him in the offseason. Or, they'll just have to find a way to work around that wasted $9 million salary next year.

[CubinNY]

goony (and others)

 

I don't understand the complaining about the $9 mill to Maddux. As Serena noted, the Cubs must have thought he would reach that milestone or they wouldn't have offered him the money. If this assumption is true, then they must not be concerned about it. Why should we be? I would like to think that Hendry planned for the future when he signed Maddux. He had to know that he would be significantly overpaid in the last year of his deal. If the assumption is false then Hendry has to be fired, no question. If Maddux salary seriously hampers the Cubs efforts to get better that is tantimount Hendry comitting malpractice.

[Knightlife_in_Lubbock]

How bad would Maddux have to pitch to get pulled from the rotation? He'd have to be at least worse than Estes and I'm not sure that's even possible. If that happened I'd hope Maddux would retire rather than embarass himself.

 

In any event, Maddux will be fine. They've been trying to bury him for 5 years now and every late summer he seems to come through. He may not be worth the money he's making but the Cubs have bargains everywhere else in the rotation with the exception of Wood.

 

I agree completely. Good post

 

At what point do you stop just saying "he'll be fine"? I don't know who has been trying to bury him for 5 years now. In the past he'd have a bad game or two, but not like he has over the past year and a half. Down the stretch last year he had an ERA over 4. He didn't "come through" then. I am guessing he's got a great month in him still this year, maybe two. But you don't pay $9 million for a month or two of great work. You pay for the season.

 

Regardless, you can't pull him from the rotation. The only way he doesn't get the option picked up is if he continues to suck so bad he keeps getting pulled in the 4th inning, or he gets injured. And obviously neither of those is a good thing. So maybe he'll retire, or they can trade him in the offseason. Or, they'll just have to find a way to work around that wasted $9 million salary next year.

 

 

Again if your picking on one then the other has to be mentioned as well:

 

Kerry had a 4+ era for the 2nd half as well (Maddux was 3.48 post-all star). He didn't come through either. The Cubs are paying Wood for 2 or 3 good months at the same (next year more) level as Maddux. Wood's $12 mill next year might be a wasted $12 million as well.

[Mark_R]

goony (and others)

 

I don't understand the complaining about the $9 mill to Maddux. As Serena noted, the Cubs must have thought he would reach that milestone or they wouldn't have offered him the money. If this assumption is true, then they must not be concerned about it. Why should we be? I would like to think that Hendry planned for the future when he signed Maddux. He had to know that he would be significantly overpaid in the last year of his deal. If the assumption is false then Hendry has to be fired, no question. If Maddux salary seriously hampers the Cubs efforts to get better that is tantimount Hendry comitting malpractice.

 

The option works both ways though. If a player isn't performing up to what he should be, and there are better alternatives to him down the stretch (and if there aren't, pitch Maddux and let us be upset about the money again next season), why should he be entitled to have to the option vest? The pitcher to attain the option has to hold up his end of the bargain (pitch well) as well.

[goonys evil twin]

goony (and others)

 

I don't understand the complaining about the $9 mill to Maddux. As Serena noted, the Cubs must have thought he would reach that milestone or they wouldn't have offered him the money. If this assumption is true, then they must not be concerned about it. Why should we be? I would like to think that Hendry planned for the future when he signed Maddux. He had to know that he would be significantly overpaid in the last year of his deal. If the assumption is false then Hendry has to be fired, no question. If Maddux salary seriously hampers the Cubs efforts to get better that is tantimount Hendry comitting malpractice.

 

This makes the assumption that every GM knows exactly what he's going to get out of each and every free agent signing. Don't you think it's possible Hendry expected more? Why am I concerned about it even if they apparantly were not? Well, payrolls are pretty important things in baseball. Anybody not performing up to his salary hurts the team's chances. You need guys who out outperforming their salaries (non arbitration players producing solid numbers). When you have a guy making $9 million, he takes away a significant payroll percentage from a position where improvements are needed.

 

I don't think people assumed that Maddux would have several disaster starts over his first season and a half back with the team. He has, on multiple occasions, virtually removed any chance the team had of winning. I highly doubt Jim thought he was getting a pitcher who would give up as many runs as innings pitched as often as Greg has so far. And it will most likely only get worse as he keeps aging and falling from perfection.

[Mark_R]

How bad would Maddux have to pitch to get pulled from the rotation? He'd have to be at least worse than Estes and I'm not sure that's even possible. If that happened I'd hope Maddux would retire rather than embarass himself.

 

In any event, Maddux will be fine. They've been trying to bury him for 5 years now and every late summer he seems to come through. He may not be worth the money he's making but the Cubs have bargains everywhere else in the rotation with the exception of Wood.

 

I agree completely. Good post

 

At what point do you stop just saying "he'll be fine"? I don't know who has been trying to bury him for 5 years now. In the past he'd have a bad game or two, but not like he has over the past year and a half. Down the stretch last year he had an ERA over 4. He didn't "come through" then. I am guessing he's got a great month in him still this year, maybe two. But you don't pay $9 million for a month or two of great work. You pay for the season.

 

Regardless, you can't pull him from the rotation. The only way he doesn't get the option picked up is if he continues to suck so bad he keeps getting pulled in the 4th inning, or he gets injured. And obviously neither of those is a good thing. So maybe he'll retire, or they can trade him in the offseason. Or, they'll just have to find a way to work around that wasted $9 million salary next year.

 

 

Again if your picking on one then the other has to be mentioned as well:

 

Kerry had a 4+ era for the 2nd half as well (Maddux was 3.48 post-all star). He didn't come through either. The Cubs are paying Wood for 2 or 3 good months at the same (next year more) level as Maddux. Wood's $12 mill next year might be a wasted $12 million as well.

 

I doubt people have been happy with the way Kerry has played during his current deal. Too much missed time.

[khufure]

Oh yes, Maddux and his 15 wins a season are overrated and undesireable. Get real people, $9m is nothing to this team. Maddux is important and well worth the $.

 

The last 2 years the story is consistently the same; almost always the comments come in the first half. "When everyone gets back from injuries we should sit maddux so his option doesn't vest". Every year someone gets injured -- never Maddux. When was the last time we actually had all 5 starters? Can anyone actually recall that? Every year Maddux solidifies the rotation and gets it done, especially in the second half.

 

I don't know about other people, but I like the idea of moving Rusch back into the bullpen. I want my bullpen to be full of guys that could start. And I definately like my team having class acts like Maddux.

[goonys evil twin]

Again if your picking on one then the other has to be mentioned as well:

 

Kerry had a 4+ era for the 2nd half as well (Maddux was 3.48 post-all star). He didn't come through either. The Cubs are paying Wood for 2 or 3 good months at the same (next year more) level as Maddux. Wood's $12 mill next year might be a wasted $12 million as well.

 

No doubt. Kerry has not performed up to his salary level either. He needs to provide more to justify his spot.

 

The difference is that 29/30/31 is around the time when a lot of pitchers reach their peak. Kerry still has room for improvement. The Cubs are paying him for what he has done so far, plus what he can do in the future. The Cubs are paying Maddux for what he did in the past.

[TruffleShuffle]

While I agree Maddux is overpaid, The Cubs are still in the race. Prior and Wood are both on the DL and we have seen what Koronka can do. If you want to limit Maddux innings and skp some of his starts, who in the heck are you going to have pitch? Wood and Prior are still big "ifs" there is no guarantee they will stay healthy. Financially you may want to rid yourself of Maddux but from a baseball perspective, at least while you are still in the race, you have no other options.

 

Part of my original premise was that the Cubs should definitely do this if they're 5 or more games out of a playoff spot come mid-August. I don't want Maddux having his option vest while pitching meaningless games for us at the end of the year, because not only does it not accomplish anything this year, it sabotages our chances of winning next year. If the Cubs are right in the race for a playoff spot, then it's a tougher call and I probably just bite the bullet and pay him next year. But if we don't make the playoffs and then next year are struggling because of a weak bullpen and an offense full of guys not getting on base, I guarantee you a lot of people will be grumbling about paying an average pitcher $9M.

[goonys evil twin]

But if we don't make the playoffs and then next year are struggling because of a weak bullpen and an offense full of guys not getting on base, I guarantee you a lot of people will be grumbling about paying an average pitcher $9M.

 

The other question though is even if that $9 million was available, would the Cubs spend it on guys who will get on base?

[SouthSideRyan]

Bump. Not interested in paying $9M in 2006 for Greg Maddux to pitch like Jeff Suppan.

 

I'll be sure to bump after every good Maddux outing. Don't be ridiculous.

 

Why is it ridiculous to suggest Maddux isn't pitching like a $9 million pitcher and he is unlikely to pitch like a $9 million next year? Why is it wrong to not want to see that much of the payroll tied into a pitcher who just isn't all that great anymore?

 

It's ridiculous to bump after a bad start and use that bad start as evidence that he shouldn't be back.

 

It would be ridiculous if that was the only bad start. But it hasn't been. He's had plenty of bad starts the past year and a half. And overall he's been nowhere near a $9 million pitcher.

 

And all that had already been said a full month ago. I don't see the need to restart the same argument that had been done to death a month before.

 

And the argument really seems pointless to me, because I don't see this team not being in the hunt for a playoff spot come September.

[TruffleShuffle]

But if we don't make the playoffs and then next year are struggling because of a weak bullpen and an offense full of guys not getting on base, I guarantee you a lot of people will be grumbling about paying an average pitcher $9M.

 

The other question though is even if that $9 million was available, would the Cubs spend it on guys who will get on base?

 

Probably not, but I can dream, can't I? :D

[CubfaninCA]

Maddux has made a crapload of money in his career and I'm not going to cry if the Cubs short him a few innings. He's not worth $9 mil. Maybe $4 million. This is a business... Not some charitable organization for the wealthy.

It would be classless for the Cubs to sabotage Maddux, and I think there's about a zero percent chance they will. It would be one thing if the Cubs legitimately have five starting pitchers better than Maddux (since the team is in a pennant race they need to use their five best starters, regardless of who they are). As long as Maddux is one of the five best, however, the Cubs need to pitch him regardless of the option. First, from a competitive standpoint, using the pitchers who give them the best chance to win this year is more important than avoiding the option next year. Second, intentionally sabotaging a player to avoid an option would likely make playing for the Cubs seem very unattractive to potential free agents. Who'd want to play for a team that will give you a vesting option, only to sabotage it if they later decide they want to avoid the option? The bottom line is that the Cubs gave him the option, now they need to live with it.

 

I don't see anything classless about keeping a guy w/ a 4.68 ERA in the NL under 190 innings. That's just smart. I highly doubt Maddux would feel slighted either.

[Geech]

He might feel slighted, but if Wood and Prior are effective when they come off the DL, it might be what's best for the team in the short run as well as the long run.

[nolanwood]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

300 + wins

a few K's shy of 3000

 

There's not another pitcher in baseball, at the moment, that has a shot at those numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there's only 9 pitchers to have ever reached that mark.

 

I'll take Greg as our 4th man any day of the week. He knows the game better than anybody else.

 

Greg has won 15 or more games every single year he's played since he came up in 1987 (excluding the 5 games he started in his short stint in 1986). I'll take a 15 game winner as our 4th man in the rotation! Not to mention his 14 gold gloves.....and pitching expertise he provides to our young pitching staff.

[frostwyrm]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

300 + wins

a few K's shy of 3000

 

There's not another pitcher in baseball, at the moment, that has a shot at those numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there's only 9 pitchers to have ever reached that mark.

 

I'll take Greg as our 4th man any day of the week. He knows the game better than anybody else.

 

Greg has won 15 or more games every single year he's played since he came up in 1987 (excluding the 5 games he started in his short stint in 1986). I'll take a 15 game winner as our 4th man in the rotation! Not to mention his 14 gold gloves.....and pitching expertise he provides to our young pitching staff.

 

I'm not trying to put you down, but you won't find many people here who pay attention to pitchers' W-L records, especially not ones that date back to the 1980's.

[TripJ]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

300 + wins

a few K's shy of 3000

 

There's not another pitcher in baseball, at the moment, that has a shot at those numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there's only 9 pitchers to have ever reached that mark.

 

I'll take Greg as our 4th man any day of the week. He knows the game better than anybody else.

 

Greg has won 15 or more games every single year he's played since he came up in 1987 (excluding the 5 games he started in his short stint in 1986). I'll take a 15 game winner as our 4th man in the rotation! Not to mention his 14 gold gloves.....and pitching expertise he provides to our young pitching staff.

 

I'm not trying to put you down, but you won't find many people here who pay attention to pitchers' W-L records, especially not ones that date back to the 1980's.

 

You're right about folks here not valuing W/L, but nolanwood DOES make a good point about the relative value in the contracts the Cubs are paying Prior and Z. If those numbers were redistributed, I don't think anyone would have a problem.

[brinoch]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

300 + wins

a few K's shy of 3000

 

There's not another pitcher in baseball, at the moment, that has a shot at those numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there's only 9 pitchers to have ever reached that mark.

 

I'll take Greg as our 4th man any day of the week. He knows the game better than anybody else.

 

Greg has won 15 or more games every single year he's played since he came up in 1987 (excluding the 5 games he started in his short stint in 1986). I'll take a 15 game winner as our 4th man in the rotation! Not to mention his 14 gold gloves.....and pitching expertise he provides to our young pitching staff.

 

I'm not trying to put you down, but you won't find many people here who pay attention to pitchers' W-L records, especially not ones that date back to the 1980's.

 

You're right about folks here not valuing W/L, but nolanwood DOES make a good point about the relative value in the contracts the Cubs are paying Prior and Z. If those numbers were redistributed, I don't think anyone would have a problem.

 

W/L record for a pitcher is an arbitrary, team statistic. A pitcher cannot control what his offense does.

[goonys evil twin]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

Why pretend?

 

You absolutely must have guys producing above their salary level in order to win. You can't just say that Zambrano and Prior aren't getting paid what they deserve therefore we can just throw money around to vets to make up the difference.

[nolanwood]

I understand where you guys are coming from - and being a lifelong Cubs fan, I'm fully aware of the value of the W-L record....

 

But, there is absolutely NO reason to discredit that stat or say it is arbitrary - Maddux earned those Wins too. Are you saying he had 300 "coincidences" in his pitching career?

[nolanwood]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

Why pretend?

 

You absolutely must have guys producing above their salary level in order to win. You can't just say that Zambrano and Prior aren't getting paid what they deserve therefore we can just throw money around to vets to make up the difference.

 

money is money.....it all goes to the same place - towards a winning team :)

[nolanwood]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

300 + wins

a few K's shy of 3000

 

There's not another pitcher in baseball, at the moment, that has a shot at those numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there's only 9 pitchers to have ever reached that mark.

 

I'll take Greg as our 4th man any day of the week. He knows the game better than anybody else.

 

Greg has won 15 or more games every single year he's played since he came up in 1987 (excluding the 5 games he started in his short stint in 1986). I'll take a 15 game winner as our 4th man in the rotation! Not to mention his 14 gold gloves.....and pitching expertise he provides to our young pitching staff.

 

I'm not trying to put you down, but you won't find many people here who pay attention to pitchers' W-L records, especially not ones that date back to the 1980's.

 

You're right about folks here not valuing W/L, but nolanwood DOES make a good point about the relative value in the contracts the Cubs are paying Prior and Z. If those numbers were redistributed, I don't think anyone would have a problem.

 

W/L record for a pitcher is an arbitrary, team statistic. A pitcher cannot control what his offense does.

 

You're absolutely right!! He controlled what the other teams offense does - which is half the battle.