White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

[UMFan83]

4/73

 

[Bertz]

Good for maximizing our return on a Willson trade, and good as a bellwether for the free agent market. Bad obviously for the hope of us doing a cool "trade Willson for awesome stuff and still come out the other end better at catcher" scenario.

[Guancous]

Willson Contreras will earn $4.5 million in 2020.

[sneakypower]

Good for maximizing our return on a Willson trade, and good as a bellwether for the free agent market. Bad obviously for the hope of us doing a cool "trade Willson for awesome stuff and still come out the other end better at catcher" scenario.

Willson is awesome stuff

[Tryptamine]

4/73 for a 31 year old catcher seems like quite a lot even if Grandal is very good. That's going to be a disaster in a year or two.

[squally1313]

This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.

[UMFan83]

I believe this is the largest FA contract the White Sox have ever given out.

[Derwood]

Gets him off the Brewers, so that's good enough for me

[Tryptamine]

This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.

 

I don't know why. I'm really not sure there's any production drop off from Contreras to Caratini/Chirinos.

[Andy]

I believe this is the largest FA contract the White Sox have ever given out.

Correct, eclipses Abreu in total money by $5M.

[Tryptamine]

It will be interesting to see if any teams actually trade good pieces for James McCann and his completely unsustainable .359babip last year. I can't imagine they'd use him as a backup.

[Irrelevant Dude]

This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.

 

I don't know why. I'm really not sure there's any production drop off from Contreras to Caratini/Chirinos.

 

OTOH trading Contreras to sign Chirinos is pretty pointless. Chirinos probably isn't a worthwhile upgrade on defense and his 2020 salary will probably be higher than Contreras'

How can you say it is pointless without knowing the return for Contreras? Looking at the catcher position in a vacuum, sure, the Cubs are better with Contreras in 2020 than with any other available catcher. But what are they gaining elsewhere?

[squally1313]

This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.

 

I don't know why. I'm really not sure there's any production drop off from Contreras to Caratini/Chirinos.

 

OTOH trading Contreras to sign Chirinos is pretty pointless. Chirinos probably isn't a worthwhile upgrade on defense and his 2020 salary will probably be higher than Contreras'

 

I mean, if you ignore what you would be receiving in return for Contreras, sure.

 

Regardless of that, I'm still betting on Contreras vs a combination along those lines. Neither of those two really strike me as a dynamic starter, and I'm not aware of some big platoon splits that would lead into getting the best out of both of them.

[squally1313]

How can you say it is pointless without knowing the return for Contreras?

 

The whole idea behind trading Contreras is built on the team being able to improve their defense and pitching around a better defensive catcher, usually a really cheap group of FAs. In the case of Chirinos he's going to cost more than $6.75 million he made last year already more than 2020 Contreras, isn't a slam dunk better framer or defender than Contreras, isn't as good a hitter, and is way older. Just seems like a sloppy way to replace Contreras

 

That is not the whole idea, or really anywhere close to the whole idea.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How can you say it is pointless without knowing the return for Contreras?

 

The whole idea behind trading Contreras is built on the team being able to improve their defense and pitching around a better defensive catcher, usually a really cheap group of FAs. In the case of Chirinos he's going to cost more than $6.75 million he made last year already more than 2020 Contreras, isn't a slam dunk better framer or defender than Contreras, isn't as good a hitter, and is way older. Just seems like a sloppy way to replace Contreras

 

That is not the whole idea, or really anywhere close to the whole idea.

 

I mean that's a significant part of it. Obviously you need something significant in return for Contreras to make the whole idea worthwhile, but the fulcrum is that it's easier to replace Contreras's production with players who cost less to acquire than Contreras's return would. And the reason that's possible comes down to defense and potentially knock-on effects of better defense/defense-related aspects.

[squally1313]

 

The whole idea behind trading Contreras is built on the team being able to improve their defense and pitching around a better defensive catcher, usually a really cheap group of FAs. In the case of Chirinos he's going to cost more than $6.75 million he made last year already more than 2020 Contreras, isn't a slam dunk better framer or defender than Contreras, isn't as good a hitter, and is way older. Just seems like a sloppy way to replace Contreras

 

That is not the whole idea, or really anywhere close to the whole idea.

 

I mean that's a significant part of it. Obviously you need something significant in return for Contreras to make the whole idea worthwhile, but the fulcrum is that it's easier to replace Contreras's production with players who cost less to acquire than Contreras's return would. And the reason that's possible comes down to defense and potentially knock-on effects of better defense/defense-related aspects.

 

But there's nothing to suggest Caratini is a good defensive catcher, right? He was a negative value defensively until 2019, and even then it's not overly impressive. I get that he's already on the roster, but any sort of platoon with Caratini getting 80+ starts isn't one centered around defense.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

That is not the whole idea, or really anywhere close to the whole idea.

 

I mean that's a significant part of it. Obviously you need something significant in return for Contreras to make the whole idea worthwhile, but the fulcrum is that it's easier to replace Contreras's production with players who cost less to acquire than Contreras's return would. And the reason that's possible comes down to defense and potentially knock-on effects of better defense/defense-related aspects.

 

But there's nothing to suggest Caratini is a good defensive catcher, right? He was a negative value defensively until 2019, and even then it's not overly impressive. I get that he's already on the roster, but any sort of platoon with Caratini getting 80+ starts isn't one centered around defense.

 

Depending on which framing metric you want to trust, Caratini was between 5 and 15 runs better than Contreras as a framer last year.

 

Statcorner: Caratini +9, Contreras +4

Fangraphs: Caratini +2, Contreras -9

Baseball Prospectus: Caratini +5, Contreras -10

 

EDIT: The BP number includes throwing and blocking, on framing alone it's Caratini +3, Contreras -9

[squally1313]

 

I mean that's a significant part of it. Obviously you need something significant in return for Contreras to make the whole idea worthwhile, but the fulcrum is that it's easier to replace Contreras's production with players who cost less to acquire than Contreras's return would. And the reason that's possible comes down to defense and potentially knock-on effects of better defense/defense-related aspects.

 

But there's nothing to suggest Caratini is a good defensive catcher, right? He was a negative value defensively until 2019, and even then it's not overly impressive. I get that he's already on the roster, but any sort of platoon with Caratini getting 80+ starts isn't one centered around defense.

 

Depending on which framing metric you want to trust, Caratini was between 5 and 15 runs better than Contreras as a framer last year.

 

Statcorner: Caratini +9, Contreras +4

Fangraphs: Caratini +2, Contreras -9

Baseball Prospectus: Caratini +5, Contreras -10

 

EDIT: The BP number includes throwing and blocking, on framing alone it's Caratini +3, Contreras -9

 

I wasn't saying they were equal, I know Contreras is bad, but I don't think that gap really comes that close to making up the offensive gap. I definitely see the argument, I'm just betting on Contreras as an upper .800s OPS guy, and someone who can be taught to cut down on the throwing errors, taught to be more focused behind the plate, etc.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

But there's nothing to suggest Caratini is a good defensive catcher, right? He was a negative value defensively until 2019, and even then it's not overly impressive. I get that he's already on the roster, but any sort of platoon with Caratini getting 80+ starts isn't one centered around defense.

 

Depending on which framing metric you want to trust, Caratini was between 5 and 15 runs better than Contreras as a framer last year.

 

Statcorner: Caratini +9, Contreras +4

Fangraphs: Caratini +2, Contreras -9

Baseball Prospectus: Caratini +5, Contreras -10

 

EDIT: The BP number includes throwing and blocking, on framing alone it's Caratini +3, Contreras -9

 

I wasn't saying they were equal, I know Contreras is bad, but I don't think that gap really comes that close to making up the offensive gap. I definitely see the argument, I'm just betting on Contreras as an upper .800s OPS guy, and someone who can be taught to cut down on the throwing errors, taught to be more focused behind the plate, etc.

 

I don't say this as someone who actively dislikes Contreras or truly wants him gone, but I think if you're looking for opportunities to have an outsized impact on the direction of the team, his combination of trade value, potential defensive gains, and the market options to help hedge against Caratini's flaws are the best bet.

[Cubswin11]

Pretty ideal outcome for us here. Grandal goes to a non Brewers/Reds team and to an AL team that won’t affect us, also goes to a team we wouldn’t be dealing Willy to so it leaves all the options still on the table there. Plus the VBs and Reds need to add a catcher still so they could steal a guy from a team in the market for a catcher and help up the need/level of interest in Willy for those teams.

[Backtobanks]

This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.

 

 

Any talk of the Cubs trading Contreras and paying Grandal what he wanted was only in the minds of some posters. With limited funds and many holes to fill, adding to a position of power wasn't going to happen.

[Bull]

 

I don't know why. I'm really not sure there's any production drop off from Contreras to Caratini/Chirinos.

 

OTOH trading Contreras to sign Chirinos is pretty pointless. Chirinos probably isn't a worthwhile upgrade on defense and his 2020 salary will probably be higher than Contreras'

 

I mean, if you ignore what you would be receiving in return for Contreras, sure.

 

Regardless of that, I'm still betting on Contreras vs a combination along those lines. Neither of those two really strike me as a dynamic starter, and I'm not aware of some big platoon splits that would lead into getting the best out of both of them.

 

What you could get for contreras minus what you could get for caratini.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

To call a FA C the Cubs might show interest in post-Contreras: Russell Martin...Might be had at $4 million (Dodgers paid him $3.6) and he fits the defense first veteran C thing. Also hits that sweet spot of getting a pretty high profile player to play a low profile role on a good team

 

Martin feels like a good fallback option since he's still a solid defender and his bat is at least playable against LHP. I'd rather explore other options at this point, personally I'd be most interested in Castro of the FAs.

[squally1313]

This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.

 

 

Any talk of the Cubs trading Contreras and paying Grandal what he wanted was only in the minds of some posters. With limited funds and many holes to fill, adding to a position of power wasn't going to happen.

 

I'm with you on the limited funds thing, but diverging on the second point because the catcher position without Contreras is definitely not a position of power.

[Cubswin11]

Castro, Chirinos and Martin are all about the same to me, I can find something to like about any of them. I’d probably go with whoever comes cheaper and doesn’t take more than 2 years guaranteed.