Cubs after Anibal Sanchez? (Signs with Tiger 5/$80mil)

[SouthSideRyan]

No one wants to hear excuses, especially on the 3 deals that were reported, then fell thru. Including me. Even if in each case one "could" be made. The "what if" card sucks. But I know this: There would be a hell of a lot less bitching and moaning about things on here if we HAD acquired Delgado and traded Garza to Texas for Olt, likely Perez or Buckel, and likely more. Those 2 deals could easily have changed our outlook on this offseason. It IS frustrating, not only to us, but the FO as well.

 

But those things didn't happen. Everything doesn't work out just as planned for anybody, it's not an excuse.

[jersey cubs fan]

It's unethical to lie, which in this case means either telling the Cubs you have a deal or telling them you will have a deal if they offer a certain amount.

 

That appears to be what happened here.

 

Doesn't seem obvious to me that is what happened.

[Guest]

The dumpster diving skill seems to have left them. In that first year in Boston, Epstein and Co. famously picked up for scraps or nothing David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Bronson Arroyo and Javy Lopez, and I'm probably missing a few. With the same effort this year (and even more opportunity because of the sorry state of the roster), we got Shawn Camp and Arodys Vizcaino.

 

At the time they did that dumpster diving, wasn't it still somewhat of a new and uncharted territory they were exploring at the time? And now hasn't nearly every other GM had the opportunity to evaluate players differently because of the success they generated from that process, thereby watering down that pool of players?

 

I'm not necessarily saying that Theo's secret of success can't still be successful, but when you aren't the only ones bidding on the dumpster players anymore, those guys are getting a lot more attention now than they were then, and thereby costing more and hampering their true value in dollars needed to spend to sign them.

[jersey cubs fan]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Frankly I find the piety to be laudable.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The dumpster diving skill seems to have left them. In that first year in Boston, Epstein and Co. famously picked up for scraps or nothing David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Bronson Arroyo and Javy Lopez, and I'm probably missing a few. With the same effort this year (and even more opportunity because of the sorry state of the roster), we got Shawn Camp and Arodys Vizcaino.

 

At the time they did that dumpster diving, wasn't it still somewhat of a new and uncharted territory they were exploring at the time? And now hasn't nearly every other GM had the opportunity to evaluate players differently because of the success they generated from that process, thereby watering down that pool of players?

 

I'm not necessarily saying that Theo's secret of success can't still be successful, but when you aren't the only ones bidding on the dumpster players anymore, those guys are getting a lot more attention now than they were then, and thereby costing more and hampering their true value in dollars needed to spend to sign them.

 

That's very probably the case. But that's the whole problem with being excited about having proven executives. The market inefficiencies that they built their success on are probably already gone, and there's no guarantee they can find new ones.

 

"The ways that our front office used to get good at their last job are no longer available to them" is not a comfort to me.

 

Which brings me to another setback: Their entire initial plan was built around something that the CBA took away before they could even get started on.

[bukie]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Frankly I find the piety to be laudable.

Repetitive tripe is annoying even when you think you're better than everyone else, guys.

[XZero771679666304]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Very, very few of them are still funny. Most are moving into the SCS realm of being an exasperating, totally predictable and entirely unfunny waste of bandwidth.

 

If they were at least funny, they'd be tolerable. But this isn't the case, and everyone here is acutely aware of how things are going, so it's just annoying.

[Tracer Bullet]

Setbacks? You're saying there are things that have happened in the last 18 months that have significantly negatively impacted the plan for this organization? And you're saying a ton of these things have happened?

 

If so, I disagree.

 

I'm saying a significant number of things have happened in the last 18 months that negatively impact the organization's chances of winning the World Series in the future. I'm not sure whether it being part of their plan or not is relevant.

 

Pretty much that entire wave of "near-ready useful parts" that we were supposed to have turned out to either suck or got shipped elsewhere for little or nothing.

 

The most valuable trade chip in the organization was overplayed and lost probably half his value, maybe more, in Matt Garza.

 

The 2011 draft class bats had a great showing, but a lot of the lower minors pitching got hurt or had setbacks.

 

We proved we were capable of major scouting fails with the Concepcion debacle. We got destroyed every which way on the Ian Stewart trade both in foresight (Ian Stewart is awful) and hindsight (Colvin and LeMahieu aren't bad).

 

In 1.5 offseasons, we've added precisely one significant long-term piece above A-ball.

 

The dumpster diving skill seems to have left them. In that first year in Boston, Epstein and Co. famously picked up for scraps or nothing David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Bronson Arroyo and Javy Lopez, and I'm probably missing a few. With the same effort this year (and even more opportunity because of the sorry state of the roster), we got Shawn Camp and Arodys Vizcaino.

 

There's simply no way they can be completely happy with the way the last 18 months have gone. Sure, they piled up a lot of prospects. It's pretty much impossible not to when you throw the kind of resources they have at it. But a lot has gone wrong.

 

Can you clarify what you mean when you say Garza was overplayed?

 

The Colvin for Stewart deal still makes sense at the time from a positional scarcity perspective. I don't believe anyone thought Stewart had to be around in 2014 on for the deal to be a good one. He sucked last year but we were trying to compete last year so that is not a significant loss. LH corner OFs that hit RHP aren't something you cling to.

 

They added Rizzo, signed Johnson and Maholm and swapped them for useful parts. The Cubs weren't in a position where Theo needed to add one or two ML pieces that others had cast off, so I'm not sure they've tried (other than the Maholm and Johnson examples) to make a determination that they've lost something.

 

Your characterization is simply overly dramatic.

[Guest]

"The ways that our front office used to get good at their last job are no longer available to them" is not a comfort to me.

 

I don't think that's what we are seeing here. Players will go where the money is. However, when the money isn't much different between offers, most are going to go where there is a better chance to contend. A few will remain loyal to the team they play for or go where they would rather live and play.

 

This particular deal reeks of squeezing as much as possible out of Detroit and using a team that clearly has big dollars available to spend as their leverage against them.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Can you clarify what you mean when you say Garza was overplayed?

 

Same as all along: The right time to trade him was in the spring of 2012. Holding on and hoping to get more value out of 48 starts to trade than 64 was a sucker's game from day one, and they got burned on the risk they were taking.

 

The Colvin for Stewart deal still makes sense at the time from a positional scarcity perspective.

 

It didn't make sense from a "only employing professional baseball players who are good at baseball" perspective.

 

He sucked last year but we were trying to compete last year so that is not a significant loss.

 

Major League playing time always has value. Significant value. Maybe even more value than money. Wasting half a season of it on a guy who is bad is always a wasted asset.

 

They added Rizzo, signed Johnson and Maholm and swapped them for useful parts. The Cubs weren't in a position where Theo needed to add one or two ML pieces that others had cast off, so I'm not sure they've tried (other than the Maholm and Johnson examples) to make a determination that they've lost something.

 

I'm simply going to have to disagree with the idea that they haven't tried.

 

Your characterization is simply overly dramatic.

 

I would call yours overly apologetic.

[Bull]

When I'm selling insurance, I tell the customer "This is going to end up costing us money, you won't find another deal like it. But you have to say yes before we get off the phone today." Jed and Theo need to do that.

 

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

 

I would never, ever buy insurance from this everybody fellow.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

"The ways that our front office used to get good at their last job are no longer available to them" is not a comfort to me.

 

I don't think that's what we are seeing here. Players will go where the money is. However, when the money isn't much different between offers, most are going to go where there is a better chance to contend. A few will remain loyal to the team they play for or go where they would rather live and play.

 

This particular deal reeks of squeezing as much as possible out of Detroit and using a team that clearly has big dollars available to spend as their leverage against them.

 

That wasn't about the Sanchez deal. It was in reference to the tangent of why Epstein's first year of cheap pickups in Boston was so awesome and his first year of cheap pickups in Chicago was so lackluster.

[ScrubMD]

When I'm selling insurance, I tell the customer "This is going to end up costing us money, you won't find another deal like it. But you have to say yes before we get off the phone today." Jed and Theo need to do that.

 

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

 

I'm quite sure it's not the same thing. When you're paying Soriano a billion dollars more than anyone else is offering, you can definitely say "I need an immediate answer" and you will obviously get one bc people like money. But you can't make a perfectly reasonable offer to a guy that would prefer to sign with a team that was just in the WS and say the same thing. You'd lose credibility and not get the deal done anyway.

 

The Soriano contract was signed before Theo and Jed came along.

 

What does that have to do with anything? It was a prime example of what he was talking about. The Cubs offered Soriano so much that he couldn't pass it up. That sort of strategy is the only way to ensure you get an immediate agreement.

 

That Theo/Jed didn't sign him is irrelevant to what he was saying.

 

The way I read it was "they did it with Soriano, why not Sanchez?" Of course, I only skimmed it. I'm a busy man.

[XZero771679666304]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Frankly I find the piety to be laudable.

Repetitive tripe is annoying even when you think you're better than everyone else, guys.

 

Clearly, anyone who isn't responding to what is transpiring with acerbic, sarcastic cynicism (as the enlightened do) is an Theo worshiping sucker, Bukie. Any pretense of optimism is a sure sign of indoctrination.

[Bull]

It's unethical to lie, which in this case means either telling the Cubs you have a deal or telling them you will have a deal if they offer a certain amount.

 

That appears to be what happened here.

 

Doesn't seem obvious to me that is what happened.

 

He did lie, just not to the Cubs. I don't think Theo ever thought he had a deal. The agent leaked that they did to get the Tigers to go all in. It worked.

[Guest]

That wasn't about the Sanchez deal. It was in reference to the tangent of why Epstein's first year of cheap pickups in Boston was so awesome and his first year of cheap pickups in Chicago was so lackluster.

 

Two completely different climates in regards to the team's chances of contending, money available to spend and a player pool that no one else was evaluating as potential key pieces to a regime change.

[Rob]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Yeah, I don't see much unethical about it. Outright lies are unethical, sure. But everybody knows how these negotiations work.

 

As to the jokes, they were chuckle worthy at first. But now they just work up Mojo and goony.

[treebird]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Frankly I find the piety to be laudable.

Repetitive tripe is annoying even when you think you're better than everyone else, guys.

 

Clearly, anyone who isn't responding to what is transpiring with acerbic, sarcastic cynicism (as the enlightened do) is an Theo worshiping sucker, Bukie. Any pretense of optimism is a sure sign of indoctrination.

 

NOT FUNNY PLZ LEAVE THREAD

 

 

(Joxe)

[XZero771679666304]

 

Your characterization is simply overly dramatic.

 

Of course it is. Kyle is our resident drama queen. It's his role.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

That wasn't about the Sanchez deal. It was in reference to the tangent of why Epstein's first year of cheap pickups in Boston was so awesome and his first year of cheap pickups in Chicago was so lackluster.

 

Two completely different climates in regards to the team's chances of contending, money available to spend and a player pool that no one else was evaluating as potential key pieces to a regime change.

 

The climate the Cubs were in should have been more conducive to finding cheap players, money doesn't matter in this context, and the third part is exactly what we were agreeing on: A major part of Epstein's success in Boston is no longer available to him (the cheap pool of really good, overlooked players).

[jersey cubs fan]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Frankly I find the piety to be laudable.

Repetitive tripe is annoying even when you think you're better than everyone else, guys.

 

Clearly, anyone who isn't responding to what is transpiring with acerbic, sarcastic cynicism (as the enlightened do) is an Theo worshiping sucker, Bukie. Any pretense of optimism is a sure sign of indoctrination.

 

You can respond to the disappointment in whatever way you prefer. So can others. What shouldn't happen is the holier than thou BS whining about other people's reaction to the disappointment.

[XZero771679666304]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

 

Frankly I find the piety to be laudable.

Repetitive tripe is annoying even when you think you're better than everyone else, guys.

 

Clearly, anyone who isn't responding to what is transpiring with acerbic, sarcastic cynicism (as the enlightened do) is an Theo worshiping sucker, Bukie. Any pretense of optimism is a sure sign of indoctrination.

 

NOT FUNNY PLZ LEAVE THREAD

 

 

(Joxe)

 

If that sort of post was all I had to offer, I would.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

Your characterization is simply overly dramatic.

 

Of course it is. Kyle is our resident drama queen. It's his role.

 

We're having a baseball discussion here. Keep the 7th-grade-female levels of obsession with other people's popularity and personalities elsewhere.

[davell]

Kyle: Just curious, in your mind, what needs to be done at this point, to aplease you heading into 2013?

[XZero771679666304]

What shouldn't happen is the holier than thou BS whining about other people's reaction to the disappointment.

 

That knife cuts both ways. It'd be nice to remain optimistic without be characterized as "pious", too.

 

No one here is happy when crap like this happens.