Sammy Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[ManCrushOnNomar]

Maybe it's the meatball in me, but I really don't care if these guys did roids before it was uncouth. The whole "that was the game back then" argument is honestly a good one. Of course, I also think Pete Rose should be in the Hall.

 

This is what I was trying to point out earlier when Rose came out; what does the latter have to do with the former? If we're going to argue "everyone was doing it" and "it was kinda banned but not enforced" and all that stuff (which I agree with), what does that have to do with Rose? Rose was consciously breaking rules at the time that had basically been baseball's original sin for decades. It's not like it's something he can plead ignorance on, or point to a pervasive culture at the time that he got swept up in.

 

That said, I have no problem with Rose in the HoF; the thing that should stand (and seemingly bugs him even more than being left out of the Hall) is his lifetime ban from MLB (no coaching, managing, announcing, etc.). The Hall is a separate entity and should put him in if people vote him in.

You're right in that they're two totally different cases, but I don't see why either is a huge deal. I guess I should have separated the two thoughts and really only focused on the roiders. I just don't think the Hall is some sacred thing that only the pure of heart are allowed to grace.

[SABR Gamer]

Local old school NY sports guy Russ Salzberg gave his thumbs up to Clemens and Bonds with a no to Sosa since the other two "put up HOF numbers before doing steroids".

If we're assuming Clemons' first year on the juice was 1997 and Bonds' was 2000, then I'm not sure i agree with his premise in Clemons' case. That would have been a pretty Albert Belle-like peak and flame out.

 

But regardless, there's a major flaw in his reasoning - There's no proof whatsoever that Sosa was on roids from 1998 to 2001. There's also no proof whatsoever that Bonds wasn't on roids prior to 2000. It's all guess work.

 

@ the Clemens stuf....what in the world?

 

He won an MVP, 3 Cy Youngs, had 2590 Ks, 100 CG, 38 Shut outs, through age 33. Six 8-win seasons, eight 6-win seasons, plus another 5 win and 4+ win season (from 84-96). Pretty much a no doubt HOFer.

 

ETA: How does someone flame out when their last season over the sample you are looking at had a 7.6 WAR (1996).

[jersey cubs fan]

Local old school NY sports guy Russ Salzberg gave his thumbs up to Clemens and Bonds with a no to Sosa since the other two "put up HOF numbers before doing steroids".

If we're assuming Clemons' first year on the juice was 1997 and Bonds' was 2000, then I'm not sure i agree with his premise in Clemons' case. That would have been a pretty Albert Belle-like peak and flame out.

 

But regardless, there's a major flaw in his reasoning - There's no proof whatsoever that Sosa was on roids from 1998 to 2001. There's also no proof whatsoever that Bonds wasn't on roids prior to 2000. It's all guess work.

 

@ the Clemens stuf....what in the world?

 

He won an MVP, 3 Cy Youngs, had 2590 Ks, 100 CG, 38 Shut outs, through age 33. Six 8-win seasons, eight 6-win seasons, plus another 5 win and 4+ win season (from 84-96). Pretty much a no doubt HOFer.

 

ETA: How does someone flame out when their last season over the sample you are looking at had a 7.6 WAR (1996).

 

Yeah, but how many rings?

[Old Style]

I used to love Sammy. He was so much fun to watch. But he cheated to put up the numbers that have him in this discussion. I don't hate the guy, but I don't see how deserves to be in the HOF.

[Derwood]

Buster Olney is pretty hit or miss with me, but he nailed it when he said that the writers' votes should "reflect an era, not cast judgement on it"

[SpongeWorthy]

Rose strikes me as a kind of guy that would end up completely destitute and unhinged if he actually got in the Hall and lost the mythology of being banned from the game. It was a good career move to gamble.

[neely crenshaw]

Here's the problem. They did not cheat.Doing steroids at that time was not against baseball rules. It was against the law IN THE U.S. but anyone who travels knows that you can walk into a corner drug store in mexico, the bahamas, the dominican and buy any number of steroids just like an aspirin. Did great players of the 60's and 70's take amphetamines to help performance? you bet.

 

If they change the rules 20 years from now and say you can't lift weights an work out year round because the old guys couldn't do that, are all the guys that did that "cheaters"? These guys did something(allegedly :D)that was legal at the time to make themselves better in order to make millions,

how is that cheating if it wasn't against the rules?

[KingCubsFan]

Here's the problem. They did not cheat.Doing steroids at that time was not against baseball rules. It was against the law IN THE U.S. but anyone who travels knows that you can walk into a corner drug store in mexico, the bahamas, the dominican and buy any number of steroids just like an aspirin. Did great players of the 60's and 70's take amphetamines to help performance? you bet.

 

If they change the rules 20 years from now and say you can't lift weights an work out year round because the old guys couldn't do that, are all the guys that did that "cheaters"? These guys did something(allegedly :D)that was legal at the time to make themselves better in order to make millions,

how is that cheating if it wasn't against the rules?

They committed multiple federal crimes in order to boost their performance. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong for idiot baseball writers to judge them for it in determining who gets into their sacred little club, but it's not anywhere close to lifting weights or breaking a small rule of the sport.

[Guest]

Here's the problem. They did not cheat.Doing steroids at that time was not against baseball rules. It was against the law IN THE U.S. but anyone who travels knows that you can walk into a corner drug store in mexico, the bahamas, the dominican and buy any number of steroids just like an aspirin. Did great players of the 60's and 70's take amphetamines to help performance? you bet.

 

If they change the rules 20 years from now and say you can't lift weights an work out year round because the old guys couldn't do that, are all the guys that did that "cheaters"? These guys did something(allegedly :D)that was legal at the time to make themselves better in order to make millions,

how is that cheating if it wasn't against the rules?

They committed multiple federal crimes in order to boost their performance. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong for idiot baseball writers to judge them for it in determining who gets into their sacred little club, but it's not anywhere close to lifting weights or breaking a small rule of the sport.

While I agree with you that neely's analogy is highly flawed, I have to dive down a bit deeper on your logic. Would you kick Aaron and Mays out of the hall if they admitted to amphetamine use? That's also a crime of the same magnitude.

[KingCubsFan]

Here's the problem. They did not cheat.Doing steroids at that time was not against baseball rules. It was against the law IN THE U.S. but anyone who travels knows that you can walk into a corner drug store in mexico, the bahamas, the dominican and buy any number of steroids just like an aspirin. Did great players of the 60's and 70's take amphetamines to help performance? you bet.

 

If they change the rules 20 years from now and say you can't lift weights an work out year round because the old guys couldn't do that, are all the guys that did that "cheaters"? These guys did something(allegedly :D)that was legal at the time to make themselves better in order to make millions,

how is that cheating if it wasn't against the rules?

They committed multiple federal crimes in order to boost their performance. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong for idiot baseball writers to judge them for it in determining who gets into their sacred little club, but it's not anywhere close to lifting weights or breaking a small rule of the sport.

While I agree with you that neely's analogy is highly flawed, I have to dive down a bit deeper on your logic. Would you kick Aaron and Mays out of the hall if they admitted to amphetamine use? That's also a crime of the same magnitude.

They're already in, so I'm not sure what kicking them out would have to do with this situation. That situation would really only apply if the drug usage had been well-known at the time they became eligible, and the writers voted them in anyways. Then I think it would be a bit hypocritical for the writers to turn around today and say nobody should get in who maybe took steroids.

[Guest]

It was pretty widely rumored at the time that a large portion of the players were taking stimulants.

[neely crenshaw]

Here's the problem. They did not cheat.Doing steroids at that time was not against baseball rules. It was against the law IN THE U.S. but anyone who travels knows that you can walk into a corner drug store in mexico, the bahamas, the dominican and buy any number of steroids just like an aspirin. Did great players of the 60's and 70's take amphetamines to help performance? you bet.

 

If they change the rules 20 years from now and say you can't lift weights an work out year round because the old guys couldn't do that, are all the guys that did that "cheaters"? These guys did something(allegedly :D)that was legal at the time to make themselves better in order to make millions,

how is that cheating if it wasn't against the rules?

They committed multiple federal crimes in order to boost their performance. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong for idiot baseball writers to judge them for it in determining who gets into their sacred little club, but it's not anywhere close to lifting weights or breaking a small rule of the sport.

in sosa's case if he took them at home and did not bring anything into the states, he broke no federal laws. Since he hasn't even been "proven" to have even taken them, don't see how he can be said he broke federal laws. how many have done jail time for this federal law breaking? right, so you are guessing that they broke the law.(which I agree would be a very good guess) But baseball isn't about who may have broken a law. They did not cheat baseball rules. Also since it was not against the rules of baseball, a player could easily get a prescription for steroids from a dr, and that would be 100% legal. As I remember there are some doctors that got into trouble for doing just that. They may have broken federal laws but in that case the players didn't.

I would bet that way over half the players where taking them a the high point. Not all steroids have the visual effects that are seen on sosa, clemens and bonds. Many improve strength, while keeping the person lean.Did Palmeiro show the signs of sosa or bonds? other than his performance would you have guessed it?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Fay Vincent outlawed steroid use in 1991.

[neely crenshaw]

also you propose that they broke the law but mcgwire was held over the fire because of taking andro...which was seen in his locker and not banned at the time. Andro at that time was readily available at any GNC store and was not illegal anywhere. Although I know that Mcgwire and sosa took much more than just Andro, from what I remember is that because each played "dumb" at there interviews, there isn't any real proof that came out. There could be some that came out later...

[KingCubsFan]

It was pretty widely rumored at the time that a large portion of the players were taking stimulants.

There's a difference between "wide rumors" and a story so big that it resulted in congressional investigation/testimony. Steroids in baseball were a HUGE issue in the country.

[SouthSideRyan]

It was pretty widely rumored at the time that a large portion of the players were taking stimulants.

There's a difference between "wide rumors" and a story so big that it resulted in congressional investigation/testimony. Steroids in baseball were a HUGE issue in the country.

 

Those differences seem to have a lot more to do with the media and Congress than the "scandal" itself.

[neely crenshaw]

Fay Vincent outlawed steroid use in 1991.

 

 

No he did not. Read his memorandum to the league. http://www.steroidsinbaseball.net/commish/vincent.html

He mentions steroids and says there is no place for them BUT he bans use of "illegal" drugs. Steroids are not illegal in most places. Steroids with a prescription are 100% legal.

Since things like Andro were available at GNC, they certainly did not fall into the illegal drug category. Bonds took high tech supplements not yet banned as "steroids" because of his involvement with conte. so they were not yet illegal nor banned.

The game is basically played in the US but if you live elsewhere this things aren't illegal. Heck many like dhea and andro were right out of US stores yet they were later banned as steroids.

 

if you look at the names of players suspended for PED's the names Bonds, Sosa, Clemens and Mcgwire do not appear and no one was suspended before 2005 when congress made baseball toughen the ban with among other things random testing for them.

 

Alos if josh hamilton continues at his pace for a few more years, is he HOF worthy or did his earlier breaking of Federal laws(since he has been PROVEN to have used illegal drugs) keep him out?

don't think it makes sense for baseball to start mandating morality when some of the biggest stars of all time had huge "moral" character flaws that are more celebrated than loathed (ruth,cobb,mantle..etc)

 

also i think a bigger question than the scandal would be why with all the problems in our country did congress get involved other than to see themselves on TV?

[Old Style]

Are you comparing PED's to recreational drugs?

[Sammy Sofa]

He's discussing the use of illegal substances.

[CubmanPi]

Career OPS+/bWAR for some players named in Mitchell Report:

 

Jose Guillen: 99/3.4

Fernando Vina: 89/10.7

Marvin Benard: 97/7.3

Randy Velarde: 101/22.8

Mark Carreon: 108/4.0

Jack Cust: 120/7.7

Lenny Dykstra: 120/41.0

David Segui: 110/7.8

Mo Vaughn: 132/24.5

RonDL White: 108/25.5

Miguel Tejada: 109/42.3

Brian roberts: 102/26.3

 

There are way more players who used than we will ever know about, and the spectrum of players covers from the super-stars to the minor leagues. For every Bonds/Sosa/Clemens/McGwire/etc, there will be 50+ of the above. There's no argument that justifies keeping 182/158.1 out of the HOF.

[KingCubsFan]

Fay Vincent outlawed steroid use in 1991.

 

 

No he did not. Read his memorandum to the league. http://www.steroidsinbaseball.net/commish/vincent.html

He mentions steroids and says there is no place for them BUT he bans use of "illegal" drugs. Steroids are not illegal in most places. Steroids with a prescription are 100% legal.

Since things like Andro were available at GNC, they certainly did not fall into the illegal drug category. Bonds took high tech supplements not yet banned as "steroids" because of his involvement with conte. so they were not yet illegal nor banned.

The game is basically played in the US but if you live elsewhere this things aren't illegal. Heck many like dhea and andro were right out of US stores yet they were later banned as steroids.

 

if you look at the names of players suspended for PED's the names Bonds, Sosa, Clemens and Mcgwire do not appear and no one was suspended before 2005 when congress made baseball toughen the ban with among other things random testing for them.

 

Alos if josh hamilton continues at his pace for a few more years, is he HOF worthy or did his earlier breaking of Federal laws(since he has been PROVEN to have used illegal drugs) keep him out?

don't think it makes sense for baseball to start mandating morality when some of the biggest stars of all time had huge "moral" character flaws that are more celebrated than loathed (ruth,cobb,mantle..etc)

 

also i think a bigger question than the scandal would be why with all the problems in our country did congress get involved other than to see themselves on TV?

You've made a lot of bad comparisons in this thread. Josh Hamilton wasn't smoking crack to further his baseball career and improve his stats.

[Sammy Sofa]

Then bringing up the illegality of certain PEDs is moot.

[Guest]

haha @ lasorda talking about morals

[23sharks]

Career OPS+/bWAR for some players named in Mitchell Report:

 

Jose Guillen: 99/3.4

Fernando Vina: 89/10.7

Marvin Benard: 97/7.3

Randy Velarde: 101/22.8

Mark Carreon: 108/4.0

Jack Cust: 120/7.7

Lenny Dykstra: 120/41.0

David Segui: 110/7.8

Mo Vaughn: 132/24.5

RonDL White: 108/25.5

Miguel Tejada: 109/42.3

Brian roberts: 102/26.3

 

There are way more players who used than we will ever know about, and the spectrum of players covers from the super-stars to the minor leagues. For every Bonds/Sosa/Clemens/McGwire/etc, there will be 50+ of the above. There's no argument that justifies keeping 182/158.1 out of the HOF.

 

 

I think that's the problem.....how do you REALLY know who did them and who didn't? To me, Bonds and Clemens were HOF's before I think they actually started using....Just using doesn't turn an average player into a great one, but it can help turn an already great player like Bonds into a freak.

I heard someone mention that you just let them all in, the great ones, and just note that they played in the steroid era.....Maybe that's the best solution....Or you get stuck trying to guess who was juicing and who wasn't....

[neely crenshaw]

Fay Vincent outlawed steroid use in 1991.

 

 

No he did not. Read his memorandum to the league. http://www.steroidsinbaseball.net/commish/vincent.html

He mentions steroids and says there is no place for them BUT he bans use of "illegal" drugs. Steroids are not illegal in most places. Steroids with a prescription are 100% legal.

Since things like Andro were available at GNC, they certainly did not fall into the illegal drug category. Bonds took high tech supplements not yet banned as "steroids" because of his involvement with conte. so they were not yet illegal nor banned.

The game is basically played in the US but if you live elsewhere this things aren't illegal. Heck many like dhea and andro were right out of US stores yet they were later banned as steroids.

 

if you look at the names of players suspended for PED's the names Bonds, Sosa, Clemens and Mcgwire do not appear and no one was suspended before 2005 when congress made baseball toughen the ban with among other things random testing for them.

 

Alos if josh hamilton continues at his pace for a few more years, is he HOF worthy or did his earlier breaking of Federal laws(since he has been PROVEN to have used illegal drugs) keep him out?

don't think it makes sense for baseball to start mandating morality when some of the biggest stars of all time had huge "moral" character flaws that are more celebrated than loathed (ruth,cobb,mantle..etc)

 

also i think a bigger question than the scandal would be why with all the problems in our country did congress get involved other than to see themselves on TV?

You've made a lot of bad comparisons in this thread. Josh Hamilton wasn't smoking crack to further his baseball career and improve his stats.

no but the point was that although they didn't break baseball rules, they broke "federal laws" , which I would guess smoking crack, possessing crack, traveling with crack would fall under.

The real point is that baseball did not care that they did this. It was not against the rules of baseball per se, and they didn't cheat.

is it wrong, is it bad for them, is it a bad example, is it an advantage, absolutely! but to say they can't be in because they broke rules that didn't exist, or broke laws, or had bad character is silly. it's just never been part of the deliberation.