the NL central 3 years from now...

[jersey cubs fan]

Hey, it's that thing where people pretend you can still acquire elite amateur talent without being bad again.

Hey it's that thing where wannabe masochists pretend MLB is the nba.

[XZero771679666304]

There's been a bunch of whining, but I've yet to see someone present an alternate scenario (a realistic one) where the Cubs compete in 2012 and still add a bunch of young premium talent.

[davell]

By the way, those bringing up the Cards system as how teams can/should do things: Their system will be average again next year. Miller, Rosenthal, and Taveras all likely graduate. Taveras is a guy they got lucky with, much as we did with Castro. Rosenthal was a late round find and in the new CBA, Miller wouldn't have lasted to them anyway. They spent big money on Martinez as a July 2 signing and hes really about the only one of their top guys that came conventionally. Odds are extremely against them coming up with another wave as this one. There is obviously a bunch of luck involved in building a top notch system and our FO is taking as much luck out of it as they can.

[Backtobanks]

There's been a bunch of whining, but I've yet to see someone present an alternate scenario (a realistic one) where the Cubs compete in 2012 and still add a bunch of young premium talent.

 

It's a little late for 2012, so I assume you mean 2013. There has been lots of discussion about trading for young players who can start in 2013 (Chisenhall, Delgado, young A's pitchers, etc.) plus go after Upton for CF and add someone like McCarthy to the rotation along with finding some bullpen help. This would make the team decent in 2013 while adding ML youth. It would cost some money, but hopefully we would have a few more young core players going into 2014.

[Guest]

No one on this board need be required to come up with a better plan, that's what Theo and co were hired to do. It should go without saying that the future is not guaranteed, but for some reason it needs to be said. For the Cubs to come up short so often in acquiring great young talent to be able to compete at the major league level is way north of frustrating.

 

If they are pinching dollars to pay for the renovations, that's one thing, but if they are simply trying to maximize profit, that's another. I really haven't liked much out of Theo's mouth with regard to the major league club in awhile. I guess time will tell.

[brinoch]

What about the constant distortion that everything Theo has done has been of his making. The plan was always to turn Shark into a starter. Any GM (including Hendry) would have made the deal trading Cashner for Rizzo because the Padres had already committed themselves to Alonso. The cupboard wasn't as bare as some of you are making it out to be.

 

?

 

Seriously, go away. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying... Theo, et al, get no credit for acquiring Rizzo? Because anyone would have done that? Man, you LOVE Hendry, don't you?

[Backtobanks]

What about the constant distortion that everything Theo has done has been of his making. The plan was always to turn Shark into a starter. Any GM (including Hendry) would have made the deal trading Cashner for Rizzo because the Padres had already committed themselves to Alonso. The cupboard wasn't as bare as some of you are making it out to be.

 

?

 

Seriously, go away. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying... Theo, et al, get no credit for acquiring Rizzo? Because anyone would have done that? Man, you LOVE Hendry, don't you?

 

After the Padres acquired Alonso and committed to him, there was no doubt that Rizzo would be traded to somebody. The Cubs needed a power-hitting 1B and thought they had enough young pitching to give up Cashner, so it wasn't a shock that the Cubs would try to make a deal. No where did I say that Theo gets "no credit" for acquiring Rizzo, but the discussion was really about the fact that the FO came in with a bare cupboard. My point was that the cupboard wasn't as bare as some posters claimed and included a pitching prospect (Cashner) good enough to acquire a cornerstone player (Rizzo).

[Little Slide Rooter]

By the way, those bringing up the Cards system as how teams can/should do things: Their system will be average again next year. Miller, Rosenthal, and Taveras all likely graduate. Taveras is a guy they got lucky with, much as we did with Castro. Rosenthal was a late round find and in the new CBA, Miller wouldn't have lasted to them anyway. They spent big money on Martinez as a July 2 signing and hes really about the only one of their top guys that came conventionally. Odds are extremely against them coming up with another wave as this one. There is obviously a bunch of luck involved in building a top notch system and our FO is taking as much luck out of it as they can.

 

But if the topic at hand is the NL Central 3 years from now, that puts them in a pretty good position despite their aging leaders and pitchers. Not to mention, they have their share of young, big league contributers.

[davell]

I've mentioned previously the Cards WILL be good then. The Reds are likely to be taking a step back. Where we'll be better off than the Cards is in financial flexibility and hopefully with as much or more young talent at that point as well. As for the Rizzo crap and where our cupboard was.........Hendry would have signed Pujols or Fielder and used Cashner as a main piece to get Cahill or Gio or something like that, in all likelihood. Rizzo? The odds of Hendry going after him were slim and none. And Shark? Yeah, he would have been given a chance at starting. And in the second half of spring training, when he got knocked around a bit? Back tk the bullpen. We've been round and round on what was in the cupboard. It was bottom 5 in the league, period. Giving Hensry any credit for what was left is just sad.

[Iloveoldstyle]

i guess i was talking about the possibility of the cardinals pitching catching an injury bug...that would cause their downfall pretty quick

 

i do wish the cubs had a system in the shape the cardinals have theirs in right now...

[Backtobanks]

I've mentioned previously the Cards WILL be good then. The Reds are likely to be taking a step back. Where we'll be better off than the Cards is in financial flexibility and hopefully with as much or more young talent at that point as well. As for the Rizzo crap and where our cupboard was.........Hendry would have signed Pujols or Fielder and used Cashner as a main piece to get Cahill or Gio or something like that, in all likelihood. Rizzo? The odds of Hendry going after him were slim and none. And Shark? Yeah, he would have been given a chance at starting. And in the second half of spring training, when he got knocked around a bit? Back tk the bullpen. We've been round and round on what was in the cupboard. It was bottom 5 in the league, period. Giving Hensry any credit for what was left is just sad.

 

Apparently you have amazing insight as to what would have happened with Hendry as GM. With tightwad Ricketts as owner, Hendry wouldn't be allowed to go after Fielder or Pujols. As for the cupboard being bare, I guess your definition of "the cupboard" is the minor leagues. If there's anything in the cupboard now it's because of the players that Hendry left so that Theo could trade them for prospects. Apparently those players had some value or else Theo wouldn't be able to acquire decent prospects for them. We're now committed to punting on 2 seasons for sure (and possibly more) to continue on the road of building on "dual fronts". Unfortunately, nobody explained that the "dual fronts" were Rookie League and Low-A Ball. Again, Hendry signed Shark with the intention of him being a starter. As for the cupboard being in the bottom 5, now the ML team is going for 2 years of bottom of the league.

[SouthSideRyan]

I've mentioned previously the Cards WILL be good then. The Reds are likely to be taking a step back. Where we'll be better off than the Cards is in financial flexibility and hopefully with as much or more young talent at that point as well. As for the Rizzo crap and where our cupboard was.........Hendry would have signed Pujols or Fielder and used Cashner as a main piece to get Cahill or Gio or something like that, in all likelihood. Rizzo? The odds of Hendry going after him were slim and none. And Shark? Yeah, he would have been given a chance at starting. And in the second half of spring training, when he got knocked around a bit? Back tk the bullpen. We've been round and round on what was in the cupboard. It was bottom 5 in the league, period. Giving Hensry any credit for what was left is just sad.

 

How will the Cardinals be good in a few years if they don't have our financial heft and are going to have a bad farm system since they'll be good the next couple years?

[Guest]

What about the constant distortion that everything Theo has done has been of his making. The plan was always to turn Shark into a starter. Any GM (including Hendry) would have made the deal trading Cashner for Rizzo because the Padres had already committed themselves to Alonso. The cupboard wasn't as bare as some of you are making it out to be.

 

?

 

Seriously, go away. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying... Theo, et al, get no credit for acquiring Rizzo? Because anyone would have done that? Man, you LOVE Hendry, don't you?

 

After the Padres acquired Alonso and committed to him, there was no doubt that Rizzo would be traded to somebody. The Cubs needed a power-hitting 1B and thought they had enough young pitching to give up Cashner, so it wasn't a shock that the Cubs would try to make a deal. No where did I say that Theo gets "no credit" for acquiring Rizzo, but the discussion was really about the fact that the FO came in with a bare cupboard. My point was that the cupboard wasn't as bare as some posters claimed and included a pitching prospect (Cashner) good enough to acquire a cornerstone player (Rizzo).

 

Sure seems like you're not giving Epstein credit since you're saying any GM including Hendry could have done that trade.

[Little Slide Rooter]

With Hendry in charge, it's hard not to imagine the farm system not sucking. Our top 5 likely looks something like Baez, Maples, Vogelbach, McNutt, Szczur. Hard to tell what the 2012 draft would have looked like. I highly doubt we have Soler, Villanueva, or Paniaqua. We certainly don't have Vizcaino or Laux.

 

As for the big league team, there's a good chance we have 1 of Pujols/Fielder as well as Aramis. Maybe Wilson or Darvish. Unsure about Zambrano. Perhaps Cespedes. Colvin's probably in RF. Edwin Jackson's another possibility judging by what he ended up signing for. God knows who our manager is.

 

Big league team:

 

1. Cespedes

2. Castro

3. Fielder

4. Aramis

5. Soriano

6. Colvin

7. Soto

8. Barney

Rotation: Garza, Wilson/Darvish, Dempster, Shark, Zambrano/Cashner/Jackson/?

Pen: Marmol, Marshall, Cashner?, Russell, Dolis

 

I don't think that too many people would complain about that team.

 

But yeah, the farm would suck. This being said, Hendry would only deserve so much credit for this team. Any GM with a big market team, substantial payroll available, an open checkbook, and the desire to emerge from the sewer could put that team together. As for what Theo's doing, if all goes as planned, he deserves all the credit in the world. If it doesn't work out, either he gets an extension anyway because we still have a solid farm system and low payroll, or he moves on and gets another fat contract and whomever takes his place has a ton of payroll and some nice prospects and young players to work with.

 

However, there has to be plenty of space in between whatever Frankenstein's monster Hendry would have created, and likely continued to duct tape ill-suited appendages onto and the The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades/Patience/Livin on a Prayer/Give Me Your Tired, Your Poor mega-mix we've got going in now.

[Backtobanks]

What about the constant distortion that everything Theo has done has been of his making. The plan was always to turn Shark into a starter. Any GM (including Hendry) would have made the deal trading Cashner for Rizzo because the Padres had already committed themselves to Alonso. The cupboard wasn't as bare as some of you are making it out to be.

 

?

 

Seriously, go away. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying... Theo, et al, get no credit for acquiring Rizzo? Because anyone would have done that? Man, you LOVE Hendry, don't you?

 

After the Padres acquired Alonso and committed to him, there was no doubt that Rizzo would be traded to somebody. The Cubs needed a power-hitting 1B and thought they had enough young pitching to give up Cashner, so it wasn't a shock that the Cubs would try to make a deal. No where did I say that Theo gets "no credit" for acquiring Rizzo, but the discussion was really about the fact that the FO came in with a bare cupboard. My point was that the cupboard wasn't as bare as some posters claimed and included a pitching prospect (Cashner) good enough to acquire a cornerstone player (Rizzo).

 

Sure seems like you're not giving Epstein credit since you're saying any GM including Hendry could have done that trade.

 

I'm sure every GM in the ML that needed a power-hitting, top prospect 1B would have been discussing a Rizzo trade given that the Padres had committed to Alonso. Theo gets credit for making the deal. Hendry should get credit for giving Theo the player (Cashner) to complete the deal.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

There's been a bunch of whining, but I've yet to see someone present an alternate scenario (a realistic one) where the Cubs compete in 2012 and still add a bunch of young premium talent.

 

Re-sign Ramirez

Sign a couple of useful veteran relief pitchers to get the bullpen to average

Put the best players on the roster from day one (see ya, Clevenger, Mather, Volstad).

 

That'll get you to.500 right there, and you can still do the Rizzo trade and the Marshall trade and sign Soler and draft Almora.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The whole concept of the thread is silly.

 

March 2010 Baseball Prospectus Organizational Rankings (2009 record):

 

8. Cubs (83-78)

9. Reds (78-84)

21. Pirates (62-99)

25. Brewers (80-82)

28. Astros (74-88)

30. Cardinals (91-71)

 

Any resemblance between the information we have now and the actual status of the teams after the 2015 season is almost a coincidence.

[USSoccer]

There's been a bunch of whining, but I've yet to see someone present an alternate scenario (a realistic one) where the Cubs compete in 2012 and still add a bunch of young premium talent.

 

Re-sign Ramirez

Sign a couple of useful veteran relief pitchers to get the bullpen to average

Put the best players on the roster from day one (see ya, Clevenger, Mather, Volstad).

 

That'll get you to.500 right there, and you can still do the Rizzo trade and the Marshall trade and sign Soler and draft Almora.

 

......

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Not my first choice, but I wanted to keep things simple. For even better results, trade Brett Jackson and Trey McNutt for Chase Headley, as we reportedly refused to do.

[davell]

There's been a bunch of whining, but I've yet to see someone present an alternate scenario (a realistic one) where the Cubs compete in 2012 and still add a bunch of young premium talent.

 

Re-sign Ramirez

Sign a couple of useful veteran relief pitchers to get the bullpen to average

Put the best players on the roster from day one (see ya, Clevenger, Mather, Volstad).

 

That'll get you to.500 right there, and you can still do the Rizzo trade and the Marshall trade and sign Soler and draft Almora.

Who are these veteran relievers? And again, if those things happened, congrats you've won half your games, don't have Pierce Johnson, Arodys Vizcaino, Christian Villanueva, went from picking 2nd in this draft and IFA budget to probably in the 15-18 range, missed the playoffs, and have two seasons of Aramis Ramirez to show for it moving forward.

[SouthSideRyan]

There's been a bunch of whining, but I've yet to see someone present an alternate scenario (a realistic one) where the Cubs compete in 2012 and still add a bunch of young premium talent.

 

Re-sign Ramirez

Sign a couple of useful veteran relief pitchers to get the bullpen to average

Put the best players on the roster from day one (see ya, Clevenger, Mather, Volstad).

 

That'll get you to.500 right there, and you can still do the Rizzo trade and the Marshall trade and sign Soler and draft Almora.

Who are these veteran relievers? And again, if those things happened, congrats you've won half your games, don't have Pierce Johnson, Arodys Vizcaino, Christian Villanueva, went bfrom picking 2nd in this draft and IFA budget to probably in the 15-18 range, missed the playoffs, and have two seasons of Aramis Ramirez to show for it moving forward.

 

So we're back to have a better than 50 percent chance out be as bad as possible for high draft picks

[davell]

A scenario was given. What exactly did THAT accomplish? You missed the playoffs, have two more years of Aramis, don't have the minor leaguers I mentioned and worsened your draft status and IFA budget very considerably. If you think Aramis has that kind of trade value, more power to you.

[SouthSideRyan]

So why should we try this year when we can just lose 96 games and get another high draft pick

[davell]

So why should we try this year when we can just lose 96 games and get another high draft pick

If I were you, I think I'd start preparing for another 90+ loss season early.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

A scenario was given. What exactly did THAT accomplish? You missed the playoffs, have two more years of Aramis, don't have the minor leaguers I mentioned and worsened your draft status and IFA budget very considerably. If you think Aramis has that kind of trade value, more power to you.

 

The request was for a simple, realistic scenario that put the team in contention last year. Not for a scenario that guaranteed we'd be better off than we were.