Source: Castro Agrees to 7/60M Extension (Option Year: 16M)

[Bryants Disco Ball]

Marlon Byrd was pretty much respected by fans and media even though he was pretty bad at times. Maybe it's because he hustled on every play, etc? In most cases, the board would say that it was because the player was white. When he's black, people just don't notice when a player isn't being trashed for not being that good.

 

When Byrd did something bad on the field, nobody in the media blasted him. When he was recently suspended 50 games for roids, nobody in the Chicago media trashed him.

 

We're not saying they're automatically racist against all non-white players; the idea is that many are too quick to jump to cliche, racial tropes as soon as they decide they don't like a non-white player, often for things said or mistakes that white players can seemingly get away with.

 

I will have to give this more thought because I always respect your opinion. But there is just something about these statements that I just can't agree with at this point.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd say that when the majority of people feel that way about a player, they aren't as hard on them. Fans or media. Starlin gained a reputation for lacking focus at times, and yes, he probably has been unfairly bashed more than he should. But it's not because he's hispanic that he gained that reputation. It's because he did a few things on the field that put it in the spotlight.

 

Ryan Theriot is kind of the gold standard of the double standard. That guy managed to screw up pretty much every possible way you can on the field, acted like a raging douche, didn't have half the talent of Starlin Castro, yet you STILL have Cubs fans who bemoan that he's gone and would rather have him over Castro.

[Bryants Disco Ball]

I'd say that when the majority of people feel that way about a player, they aren't as hard on them. Fans or media. Starlin gained a reputation for lacking focus at times, and yes, he probably has been unfairly bashed more than he should. But it's not because he's hispanic that he gained that reputation. It's because he did a few things on the field that put it in the spotlight.

 

Ryan Theriot is kind of the gold standard of the double standard. That guy managed to screw up pretty much every possible way you can on the field, acted like a raging douche, didn't have half the talent of Starlin Castro, yet you STILL have Cubs fans who bemoan that he's gone and would rather have him over Castro.

 

But I would think those are the meatheads you guys always talk about. Nothing about those Cubs fans really matters. I don't think that means they are racist. I just think it means they are idiots.

 

The Cubs fans who actually have knowledge knows that he blows. Just like we know that Koyie Hill blew and Joe Borowski wasn't all that as a closer. Just like we also would say that Milton Bradley was terrible.

[Sammy Sofa]

Hill and (especially) Borowski had their fans because of stupid [expletive] like sawing off fingers and inexplicably being perceived as an excellent defensive catcher (again, this comes into play when it was just automatically assumed time and time again that Hill was better defensively and called a better game than Soto) or being really, really sweaty.

 

The crux of this is stereotypes when it comes to criticisms. Hispanic and black players are typically "lazy, can't focus, don't have their head in the game, don't try, aren't leaders, whiners, crybabies," etc..

Edited August 13, 2012 by Sammy Sofa

[Bryants Disco Ball]

Also, I would add that I'm not talking about fans and whether they are racists. More focusing on the media.

 

I do not believe at this point that the Chicago media has targeted minorities and are racist against them. If we had a crazy white man who also was a star like Carlos Zambrano, they'd write and talk about him because it would be an interesting and good story.

 

Maybe the real story is that we haven't had enough superstar white dudes who also were crazy off the field or did crazy things during games.

[Bryants Disco Ball]

The crux of this is stereotypes when it comes to criticisms. Hispanic and black players are typically "lazy, can't focus, don't have their head in the game, don't try, aren't leaders, whiners, crybabies," etc..

 

I do admit those exist. That's fair.

[Gilby]

Yeah I agree with TT that it might be more xenophobia than racism. Latin players, at least on the Cubs, tend to have the "lazy" and "mentally out of it" descriptions thrown around more.

 

But seriously, I get that Starlin has made more mistakes than Rizzo, but when Starlin forgot the outs in SF when he wouldn't have turned the DP anyway and didn't cost the Cubs anything, it was a HUGE deal. Rizzo forgot the outs and costed the Cubs an out, and literally nothing was made of it.

 

Soriano didn't run out of the box that time he hit a hard liner to third that the fielder dropped, but still threw to first. He would've been out by 50 ft had he run, but the media turned it into this huge thing. A few games later a Cubs player (I forget who) hit a little dribbler in front of the plate and was tagged out without leaving the box. Nothing was made of it.

 

Castro and Soriano are clearly held to different standards by the media and a lot of fans.

[Sammy Sofa]

Also, I would add that I'm not talking about fans and whether they are racists. More focusing on the media.

 

I do not believe at this point that the Chicago media has targeted minorities and are racist against them. If we had a crazy white man who also was a star like Carlos Zambrano, they'd write and talk about him because it would be an interesting and good story.

 

Like how they savaged Rod Beck?

 

It sounds like you're perceiving this as some kind of racially-motivated quest to attack minority players; it's not. The basis is that racism and racial prejudices are so deeply ingrained with so many in this country that they jump to certain criticisms based out of those prejudices without even thinking twice about it. It's not an active idea like "oh man, I hate that dirty brown Starlin Castro, I'm gonna go get him!" It's something buried deep inside so that when they see him forget how many outs there then the "natural" response is to think, "oh, he's lazy, he can't focus!" and make a big deal out of it and then not give it a second thought when someone like Rizzo does it.

[KingCubsFan]

[expletive], even that is revisionist history; you had guys slamming him as "selfish" before 2002.

 

yeah, sammy was hated by many back in the 99/00/01 timeframe when "he only hit HR when it didn't matter" was the main complaint.

I think that had more to do with the fact that he was the best player on horrible teams, and people generally equate a team's success with their best player (see Lebron, Cutler).

[Andy]

Soriano didn't run out of the box that time he hit a hard liner to third that the fielder dropped, but still threw to first. He would've been out by 50 ft had he run, but the media turned it into this huge thing. A few games later a Cubs player (I forget who) hit a little dribbler in front of the plate and was tagged out without leaving the box. Nothing was made of it.

That was Reed Johnson.

[Sammy Sofa]

Soriano didn't run out of the box that time he hit a hard liner to third that the fielder dropped, but still threw to first. He would've been out by 50 ft had he run, but the media turned it into this huge thing. A few games later a Cubs player (I forget who) hit a little dribbler in front of the plate and was tagged out without leaving the box. Nothing was made of it.

That was Reed Johnson.

 

Exactly.

 

To really oversimplify something I think is pretty complex, I think there is this undercurrent of anger and frustration and resentment towards Latino or black players who seem to be effortlessly talented, to the point that the almost automatic reaction is to prop up or root extra hard for white players who have to work that much harder just to stick around. Those talented non-white players often can't win for trying; if they're outgoing and gregarious or even just have strong opinions they're seen as being arrogant and cocky. If they're quiet and keep to themselves then they're selfish and bad leaders and clubhouse cancers.

[CUBZ99]

Yeah I agree with TT that it might be more xenophobia than racism. Latin players, at least on the Cubs, tend to have the "lazy" and "mentally out of it" descriptions thrown around more.

 

But seriously, I get that Starlin has made more mistakes than Rizzo, but when Starlin forgot the outs in SF when he wouldn't have turned the DP anyway and didn't cost the Cubs anything, it was a HUGE deal. Rizzo forgot the outs and costed the Cubs an out, and literally nothing was made of it.

 

Soriano didn't run out of the box that time he hit a hard liner to third that the fielder dropped, but still threw to first. He would've been out by 50 ft had he run, but the media turned it into this huge thing. A few games later a Cubs player (I forget who) hit a little dribbler in front of the plate and was tagged out without leaving the box. Nothing was made of it.

 

Castro and Soriano are clearly held to different standards by the media and a lot of fans.

 

Different standard than what? In regard to the Rizzo mistake, he has only been with the team for 40 games. I challenge you to go back to Castro's first year and find an instance within 40 days where the media ganged up on him and ripped him for making a mental error. Although they are near the same age, the book on Starlin Castro is much bigger than Rizzo, so to compare their treatment by the media is misguided. I'm pretty sure that 2 years from now, if Rizzo started to stuggle and the the manager started calling out Rizzo for his work ethic, and he was frequently making stupid mistakes and even caught on national television looking at the outfield/scoreboard while the pitcher was delivering the ball the media would be all over him. Hopefully we don't get to find out.

 

As far as Soriano goes, he is held to a different standard based on his salary and his leadership status more than anything else. Why shouldn't the fans/club/media expect more from a guy that is making almost 45 times more than the league minimum player? Fortunately/unfortunately for Soriano he had several years of being revered before most realized how bad his contract was and he couldn't produce in line with his salary.

 

Are some fans and media members racist? No doubt, but it is trumped up more here than anywhere. Does anybody remember the treatment by the media that Rich Hill got because he was deemed too aloof and lazy etc? Randy Wells partied too hard and didn't have a good work ethic, according to himself and the media. The fans and media were relentless against Mark Prior, who probably experienced the worst treatment of any player in recent history.

[Sammy Sofa]

Actually, the Prior stuff just played to these type of base prejudices, since the underlying current to pretty much all of the criticism/jokes was that he was weak and unmanly, so just substitute one prejudice for another. Toss on the anti-illectualism because of his degree and the perception of him being "arrogant" because of it and you've got a nice, roiling meatball stew going.

 

The Wells stuff I honestly don't remember at all.

 

And you're right about the expectations with someone like Soriano, but again, I'd argue a lot of that is fueled by inherent frustration and resentment over "one of them" getting that kind of money. He's obviously a flawed player, but the unwritten goal with him has seemingly been to pounce on anything and everything he does "wrong" since he got here.

 

I mean, really, should be surprised that what fans often want, and what sports journalists often cater do, are just our dumber, more base instincts? And there's little more base than playing on our fears/resentment of "the other."

Edited August 13, 2012 by Sammy Sofa

[SouthSideRyan]

Is it weird that, this morning, when blasting Castro's defense and baseball intelligence (he said something to the effect of "the cubs will tell you that he has physically improved as a defender, but his head still leaves a great deal to be desired"), Stone accidentally referred to Castro as Soriano?

 

Like anyone's talking to Steve Stone. Not just Cubs FO, I mean anyone.

[SouthSideRyan]

Kaplan recalls. “It was like, ‘We finally got rid of him.’”

 

What a [expletive]

[jersey cubs fan]

See, that's the thing. When a black player doesn't get trashed by fans or media and he is brought up as an example, there will always be an excuse. Maybe he didn't get bashed because for the most part, people felt he gave a good effort and played ball the right way most times.

 

My god that is so stupid. So the only way you can justify claiming there are racial overtones to how some are playing is by confirming that all minority players are criticized and no white players are? Seriously, that is just so dumb. That's not "the thing", that's just dumb.

[SouthSideRyan]

[expletive], even that is revisionist history; you had guys slamming him as "selfish" before 2002.

 

yeah, sammy was hated by many back in the 99/00/01 timeframe when "he only hit HR when it didn't matter" was the main complaint.

 

Not to mention the seething hatred people had for him from '92-'97.

[Guest]

Is it weird that, this morning, when blasting Castro's defense and baseball intelligence (he said something to the effect of "the cubs will tell you that he has physically improved as a defender, but his head still leaves a great deal to be desired"), Stone accidentally referred to Castro as Soriano?

 

Like anyone's talking to Steve Stone. Not just Cubs FO, I mean anyone.

 

I agree.

 

But I worded that strangely. I think he meant the second part as his own opinion...as in a "despite what the cubs say" type of way

[javy knows my name]

Actually, the Prior stuff just played to these type of base prejudices, since the underlying current to pretty much all of the criticism/jokes was that he was weak and unmanly, so just substitute one prejudice for another. Toss on the anti-illectualism because of his degree and the perception of him being "arrogant" because of it and you've got a nice, roiling meatball stew going.

 

Oh my, how I laughed.

 

Mojo is killing it from all angles in this thread. Also David Kaplan is a racist.

[davell]

Don't call him that, he'll ban you from his Twitter.

[Bryants Disco Ball]

See, that's the thing. When a black player doesn't get trashed by fans or media and he is brought up as an example, there will always be an excuse. Maybe he didn't get bashed because for the most part, people felt he gave a good effort and played ball the right way most times.

 

My god that is so stupid. So the only way you can justify claiming there are racial overtones to how some are playing is by confirming that all minority players are criticized and no white players are? Seriously, that is just so dumb. That's not "the thing", that's just dumb.

 

What I'm saying is that there are hundreds of minority players who have played for the Cubs that have not been discriminated against by the media. Meaning I don't believe they are racist like some do. And every time a minority fits that description, somebody will have an excuse as to why he wasn't picked on. The bottom line is that there are reasons guys like zambrano have been focused on by the media. And it's not because they are hispanic

[Sammy Sofa]

Zambrano compounded things by being nuts. Zambrano and guys like Milton Bradley don't excuse the [expletive] treatment that guys like Jacque Jones, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Soriano, Castro, Alou et al have received.

[KingCubsFan]

I think the language barrier factor gets overlooked as well.

[Bryants Disco Ball]

Zambrano compounded things by being nuts. Zambrano and guys like Milton Bradley don't excuse the [expletive] treatment that guys like Jacque Jones, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Soriano, Castro, Alou et al have received.

 

I don't know, man. I just think it often comes with the territory of being one of the standout players on your team. I could be wrong, but I do not remember the media being real rough on guys like Alou and Lee.

[davell]

Lee? What'd I miss on him?