Cards Sign Beltran

[Mike_Mun]

This guy is great. I predict 200 wins for the Cardinals next year. That Mo, so smart. And you do realize you lost Pujols because you bid against yourself for Holliday, right? The same Holliday who will most likely age worse than Pujols. But hey, just pretend they'll keep on keeping on.

 

Right. Winning the WS in 2011 was a completely unrelated event. Good to learn from a team that paid $227M for Soriano and Zambrano. #-o

 

The Cards have only 5 years left with Holliday. My guess is 3-4 of those will be productive. That's pretty much what the Angels should get with AP as they are exactly the same age. But, with a ten year contract. You get that doncha?

 

Sorry, just not sure how much needs to be explained to a guy who elect his governors for terms of ten to life.

 

Yes, The Cardinals still have a good but old team, but you need to stop acting as though the loss of best player of this generation isnt going to phase them. If it were 2005, having Beltran, Holliday, and Berkman through the heart of the order would be outworldly, but I really dont like the chances of the killer B's stayng healthy for the majority of the season and at this point, those guys are key to the team and you can't just dig into AAA and replace them with some version of Jake LaHoffpauir.

 

I don't think it's lost on any Cardinal fan that the loss of Pujols is huge. They began the mourning process last year when Albert came out of the gates sluggish. He hit into 3 DP's the first game and led the league the rest of the year in that stat. He finally began to heat up in June and finished strong. The point being you could sign him for ten years (no, Holliday's signing didn't preclude offering Pujols a 210 M contract) and suffer thru the last 6 years of that contract or try to replace Pujols(-). It's not like there were good options regarding Albert. Warriors really do fade away. Pujols could have signed with the Cards and still been the 2d best paid player of all time. He chose more money but still is only the 2d best paid.

 

Pujols and the team did what made the best business sense for each. Frankly, I think Pujols will regret it more than the Cardinals do...a few years from now.

 

Re: Berkman and Beltran. Anything's possible. Berkman has an extensive conditioning program during the offseason. Worked pretty well for him last year. Beltran will get plenty of rest after Craig returns. It's a dog fight between the Cards, Brewers and Reds. Who stays healthy likely to dictate.

 

The Cardinals are not an old team but they do have old players. They are much more balanced than say the Phillies who actually are old. They have a plan in place to replace obsolescence. Whether it works or not is anybody's guess.

 

Cubs not relevant in 2012. Gonna have to hurry if they want to be in 2013. The rotation, even adding Wood, is a disgrace for a team with that payroll.

[TruffleShuffle]

And they don't play baseball.

[Little Slide Rooter]

And what is the plan in place? Hope that Allan Craig and David Freese are better than they are? Aren't they already hurt half the time as is? Hope Holliday and Wainright don't age? Yeah, you have some nice pieces in the farm but they're far from the point that they can bank on a future sans a rebuild in the next 2-4 years. yeah, we know the Cubs will suck in 2012 and probably 2013 but that doesn't have anything to do with the Cardinals sucking past 2013.

[Mike_Mun]

Freese got a broken hand from a out of control pitch. His only 2011 injury. The ankle injury has healed and was not an issue in 2011. Craig banged his knee into a wall in right field. I suppose a Cub fan could hope that happens every year. But, I think it's unlikely. Most Cardinal fans know just how good these two guys are and have been counting on their success in the majors. It was no surprise they had the success they did in 2011.

 

Wainwright just turned 30. I don't think anybody's worried about his getting old any time soon. He has Carp's work ethic and could be around for 6-8 years. Holliday is 31 and has been and should continue to give us our money's worth for the remainder of his excellent 5 year contract.

 

Cardinal fans think their farm will continue to provide them with players for the foreseeable future. Some, like M Carpenter 3B, Lynn RHP, Sanchez RHP, Chambers CF, are ready right now. Many of those players like: Miller RHP, Swagerty RHP, Jackson SS, Gast LHP, Cox 3b/2B and Adams 1B are just a year away. Rosenthal RHP, Carlos Martinez RHP, Wong 2B, Taveras OF are 2 years. Jenkins RHP, and a huge corps of players a little more time. The Cardinals use FA market judiciously. It's also a great time to have a rich farm as they tend to being overvalued in the trade market.

 

If the Cubs are going to be relevant beyond 2013, it won't likely be due to the Cards weakness but because the Cubs do a good job of rebuilding. That's not been their strong suit. Maybe Theo will have an impact. Only time will tell.

 

For all of Theo's success, he left Boston with some gargantuan FA contracts...some of which aren't performing well.

Edited December 25, 2011 by No Kidding Around

[Conky]

Freese got a broken hand from a out of control pitch. His only 2011 injury. The ankle injury has healed and was not an issue in 2011. Craig banged his knee into a wall in right field. I suppose a Cub fan could hope that happens every year. But, I think it's unlikely. Most Cardinal fans know just how good these two guys are and have been counting on their success in the majors. It was no surprise they had the success they did in 2011.

 

Wainwright just turned 30. I don't think anybody's worried about his getting old any time soon. He has Carp's work ethic and could be around for 6-8 years. Holliday is 31 and has been and should continue to give us our money's worth for the remainder of his excellent 5 year contract.

 

Cardinal fans think their farm will continue to provide them with players for the foreseeable future. Some, like M Carpenter 3B, Lynn RHP, Sanchez RHP, Chambers CF, are ready right now. Many of those players like: Miller RHP, Swagerty RHP, Jackson SS, Gast LHP and Adams 1B are just a year away. Rosenthal RHP, Carlos Martinez RHP, Taveras OF are 2 years. Jenkins RHP, and a huge corps of players a little more time. The Cardinals use FA market judiciously. It's also a great time to have a rich farm as they tend to being overvalued in the trade market.

 

If the Cubs are going to be relevant beyond 2013, it won't likely be due to the Cards weakness but because the Cubs do a good job of rebuilding. That's not been their strong suit. Maybe Theo will have an impact. Only time will tell.

 

*Yawns*

 

Did you used to post Cardinals related videos on Youtube?

 

;)

[Little Slide Rooter]

 

Cubs fans think their farm will continue to provide them with players for the foreseeable future. Some, like Choi, 1B Mitre RHP, Cruz RHP, Patterson CF, are ready right now. Many of those players like: Guzman RHP Hill RHP, Pie CF Dopirek 3b/2B and Cedeno SS are just a year away. Brownlie, RHP, Rich Hill RHP, Harvey, OF are 2 years. Pawalek RHP, and a huge corps of players a little more time. The Cubs use FA market judiciously. It's also a great time to have a rich farm as they tend to being overvalued in the trade market.

.

 

Yeah, I knew that sounded familiar. The fact is, unless you're the Yankees all teams are going to go through those down years. We all have those prospects we hope to depend on to make that phase as short as possible, but it's simply not realistic to assume that all of those prospects are going to pan out and give you an instant transition. A few could become stars. A few more could become everyday players, more still could become role players and then there's those who will simply fall flat.

[Derwood]

Don't worry, Mark Hamilton and Adam Ottovino will slot right in for the Cards

[JimSorgi]

This guy is great. I predict 200 wins for the Cardinals next year. That Mo, so smart. And you do realize you lost Pujols because you bid against yourself for Holliday, right? The same Holliday who will most likely age worse than Pujols. But hey, just pretend they'll keep on keeping on.

 

Right. Winning the WS in 2011 was a completely unrelated event. Good to learn from a team that paid $227M for Soriano and Zambrano. #-o

 

The Cards have only 5 years left with Holliday. My guess is 3-4 of those will be productive. That's pretty much what the Angels should get with AP as they are exactly the same age. But, with a ten year contract. You get that doncha?

 

Sorry, just not sure how much needs to be explained to a guy who elects his governors for terms of ten to life.

You haven't said anything intelligent in all your weird rambling, so maybe you should stop talking down to everyone. It's really embarrassing for you.

[Little Slide Rooter]

This must be the guy who started the Pujols on the decline thread last year.

[illiniguy]

Albert Pujols now sucks, prolly not as good as Matt Holliday. Unreal. Were we like this when Greg Maddux walked away the first time?

[EhDubya]

Pujols isn't going to be a St Louis icon.

 

Yeah, what's he ever done there? He'll definitely enter the Hall wearing an Angels hat.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Albert Pujols now sucks, prolly not as good as Matt Holliday. Unreal. Were we like this when Greg Maddux walked away the first time?

 

Yeah but we still had 5 years of Mike Harkey 3-4 were likely to be productive. That's pretty much the same the Braves should have gotten from GM as they were exactly the same age.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Pujols isn't going to be a St Louis icon.

 

Yeah, what's he ever done there? He'll definitely enter the Hall wearing an Angels hat.

 

Albert Pujols definitely isn't going to be a St. Louis in the same sense that Michael Jordan isn't a Chicago icon.

 

Ok, I think I've give this troll enough of a Christmas dinner.

[bcl412]

Why is GIDP being used as evidence for anything?

[Mike_Mun]

Hey, I don't blame you guys for the personal attacks. I'd be frustrated too, if I were you. You certainly can't win any arguments on your knowledge of the facts as this thread proves.

 

You can't explain why the Cardinals have such a solid program and the Cubs don't. You counted on the farm system and it tanked. You counted on the FA acquisitions and watched them pay 137 M for 8 years of Soriano and didn't even get a year out of that in which the deal might have looked palatable.... Different amount but same story for Zambrano. You made a fine deal for Milton Bradley. Then traded him for Silva? Fukudome...

 

Sure, put all the Cardinal success on Pujols. He singlehandedly carried the Cardinals to 3 WS, winning 2. Didn't have a thing to do with solid financials, albeit less resources than the Cubs. Nothing to do with excellent rotations, consistent bullpens and players like Holliday, Furcal, Berkman, Freese, Molina, Eckstein etc.

 

Pujols can wear whatever hat Cooperstown decides. That's hardly a given. What he did in his first 11 years is what got him to the HOF. If his career began in March, his stats wouldn't support the Hall. He's an Angel now so who really cares which hat he wears. From what I read, he's PNG in St Louis, particularly after signing the 10 year personal service contract. What happens 20 years from now is too far away to speculate.

 

Nobody said Holliday is now better than Pujols. Someone needs reading comprehension skills badly. But, a 5 year contract for $85M with a 32 year old Holliday is better than a ten year contract for $254M with a 32 year old Pujols. Do the math.

 

Cubs fans think their farm will continue to provide them with players for the foreseeable future. Some, like Choi, 1B Mitre RHP, Cruz RHP, Patterson CF, are ready right now. Many of those players like: Guzman RHP Hill RHP, Pie CF Dopirek 3b/2B and Cedeno SS are just a year away. Brownlie, RHP, Rich Hill RHP, Harvey, OF are 2 years. Pawalek RHP, and a huge corps of players a little more time. The Cubs use FA market judiciously. It's also a great time to have a rich farm as they tend to being overvalued in the trade market.

 

No kidding. That's why the Cards trashed their system under Manno and brought in Luhnow. 24 players drafted from '05 to '08 reached the majors. The Reds who had to go to San Diego for a starter are supplying the Cubs with their sixth starter to round out your rotation. Then you have a 28 page thread getting excited about a 140 pound Torreyes throw in.

 

Heck yes, I'd be frustrated too.

[bcl412]

What are you arguing? It seems to be that the Cardinals have been a better franchise than the Cubs. No [expletive].

[SouthSideRyan]

You know what would frustrate me? Having to entertain myself on Christmas Day trolling a Cubs message board.

 

That and worshiping Pujols for 11 years, then realizing he [expletive] hates me and the city of St. Louis.

[Little Slide Rooter]

What are you arguing? It seems to be that the Cardinals have been a better franchise than the Cubs. No [expletive].

 

Asking a troll why he's continuing a pointless arguement just to annoy people is like asking my dog why he has to stop to piss on every [expletive] bush we pass when I'm walking him in below freezing weather.

[Mike_Mun]

That and worshiping Pujols for 11 years, then realizing he [expletive] hates me and the city of St. Louis.

 

Pujols was a thrill to watch. St Louis got his best years. Of that there is no doubt. The outcome wasn't gonna be good no matter what. It may be better that he took the money and ran then saddling the team with a nine or ten year contract...entering his decline.

 

It's a good thing for you guys that Hendry wasn't still here. That's his kinda buy.

[Little Slide Rooter]

The interesting thing about this particular troll is that he's been around for aost exactly 2 years popping up sporadically at most and all of the the sudden he emerges from beneath his bridge with a vengeance because we dared to question the signing of Carlos Beltran.

[NonProfitCow]

The interesting thing about this particular troll is that he's been around for aost exactly 2 years popping up sporadically at most and all of the the sudden he emerges from beneath his bridge with a vengeance because we dared to question the signing of Carlos Beltran.

I wonder what magdal thinks about all this.

[Cronos006]

No one in this thread is trolling. It's a thread about a rival, yes, so a certain amount of snark from both sides is expected, but it seems like the discussion has been pretty reasonable, with good arguments from both sides about how much of a difference the signings in replacement of Pujols can make.

 

The impact of Pujols leaving his former team is seen as more significant around here than it is elsewhere. That much is clear.

[XZero771679666304]

 

The impact of Pujols leaving his former team is seen as more significant around here than it is elsewhere. That much is clear.

 

 

And it's seen as less significant on Cards boards than it is elsewhere. Somewhere in between what NSBBers think and what GRBers think lies the truth, I think.

 

NKA is clearly trolling, btw.

[XZero771679666304]

The interesting thing about this particular troll is that he's been around for aost exactly 2 years popping up sporadically at most and all of the the sudden he emerges from beneath his bridge with a vengeance because we dared to question the signing of Carlos Beltran.

\

 

No one is questioning the Beltran signing. It was a really solid move. It's because people dared to insinuate that the the meat of the Cards order is on the older/fragile side and they aren't prepared to re-load it from within. That and they won't be able to absorb attrition as well with Pujols gone.

[NonProfitCow]

No one in this thread is trolling. It's a thread about a rival, yes, so a certain amount of snark from both sides is expected, but it seems like the discussion has been pretty reasonable, with good arguments from both sides about how much of a difference the signings in replacement of Pujols can make.

 

The impact of Pujols leaving his former team is seen as more significant around here than it is elsewhere. That much is clear.

No Kidding Around may not be intentionally trolling, but he's clearly a Cards Talk level idiot.