Mike_Mun

Pujols was a thrill to watch. St Louis got his best years. Of that there is no doubt. The outcome wasn't gonna be good no matter what. It may be better that he took the money and ran then saddling the team with a nine or ten year contract...entering his decline. It's a good thing for you guys that Hendry wasn't still here. That's his kinda buy.

Hey, I don't blame you guys for the personal attacks. I'd be frustrated too, if I were you. You certainly can't win any arguments on your knowledge of the facts as this thread proves. You can't explain why the Cardinals have such a solid program and the Cubs don't. You counted on the farm system and it tanked. You counted on the FA acquisitions and watched them pay 137 M for 8 years of Soriano and didn't even get a year out of that in which the deal might have looked palatable.... Different amount but same story for Zambrano. You made a fine deal for Milton Bradley. Then traded him for Silva? Fukudome... Sure, put all the Cardinal success on Pujols. He singlehandedly carried the Cardinals to 3 WS, winning 2. Didn't have a thing to do with solid financials, albeit less resources than the Cubs. Nothing to do with excellent rotations, consistent bullpens and players like Holliday, Furcal, Berkman, Freese, Molina, Eckstein etc. Pujols can wear whatever hat Cooperstown decides. That's hardly a given. What he did in his first 11 years is what got him to the HOF. If his career began in March, his stats wouldn't support the Hall. He's an Angel now so who really cares which hat he wears. From what I read, he's PNG in St Louis, particularly after signing the 10 year personal service contract. What happens 20 years from now is too far away to speculate. Nobody said Holliday is now better than Pujols. Someone needs reading comprehension skills badly. But, a 5 year contract for $85M with a 32 year old Holliday is better than a ten year contract for $254M with a 32 year old Pujols. Do the math. No kidding. That's why the Cards trashed their system under Manno and brought in Luhnow. 24 players drafted from '05 to '08 reached the majors. The Reds who had to go to San Diego for a starter are supplying the Cubs with their sixth starter to round out your rotation. Then you have a 28 page thread getting excited about a 140 pound Torreyes throw in. Heck yes, I'd be frustrated too.

Freese got a broken hand from a out of control pitch. His only 2011 injury. The ankle injury has healed and was not an issue in 2011. Craig banged his knee into a wall in right field. I suppose a Cub fan could hope that happens every year. But, I think it's unlikely. Most Cardinal fans know just how good these two guys are and have been counting on their success in the majors. It was no surprise they had the success they did in 2011. Wainwright just turned 30. I don't think anybody's worried about his getting old any time soon. He has Carp's work ethic and could be around for 6-8 years. Holliday is 31 and has been and should continue to give us our money's worth for the remainder of his excellent 5 year contract. Cardinal fans think their farm will continue to provide them with players for the foreseeable future. Some, like M Carpenter 3B, Lynn RHP, Sanchez RHP, Chambers CF, are ready right now. Many of those players like: Miller RHP, Swagerty RHP, Jackson SS, Gast LHP, Cox 3b/2B and Adams 1B are just a year away. Rosenthal RHP, Carlos Martinez RHP, Wong 2B, Taveras OF are 2 years. Jenkins RHP, and a huge corps of players a little more time. The Cardinals use FA market judiciously. It's also a great time to have a rich farm as they tend to being overvalued in the trade market. If the Cubs are going to be relevant beyond 2013, it won't likely be due to the Cards weakness but because the Cubs do a good job of rebuilding. That's not been their strong suit. Maybe Theo will have an impact. Only time will tell. For all of Theo's success, he left Boston with some gargantuan FA contracts...some of which aren't performing well.

Right. Winning the WS in 2011 was a completely unrelated event. Good to learn from a team that paid $227M for Soriano and Zambrano. #-o The Cards have only 5 years left with Holliday. My guess is 3-4 of those will be productive. That's pretty much what the Angels should get with AP as they are exactly the same age. But, with a ten year contract. You get that doncha? Sorry, just not sure how much needs to be explained to a guy who elect his governors for terms of ten to life. Yes, The Cardinals still have a good but old team, but you need to stop acting as though the loss of best player of this generation isnt going to phase them. If it were 2005, having Beltran, Holliday, and Berkman through the heart of the order would be outworldly, but I really dont like the chances of the killer B's stayng healthy for the majority of the season and at this point, those guys are key to the team and you can't just dig into AAA and replace them with some version of Jake LaHoffpauir. I don't think it's lost on any Cardinal fan that the loss of Pujols is huge. They began the mourning process last year when Albert came out of the gates sluggish. He hit into 3 DP's the first game and led the league the rest of the year in that stat. He finally began to heat up in June and finished strong. The point being you could sign him for ten years (no, Holliday's signing didn't preclude offering Pujols a 210 M contract) and suffer thru the last 6 years of that contract or try to replace Pujols(-). It's not like there were good options regarding Albert. Warriors really do fade away. Pujols could have signed with the Cards and still been the 2d best paid player of all time. He chose more money but still is only the 2d best paid. Pujols and the team did what made the best business sense for each. Frankly, I think Pujols will regret it more than the Cardinals do...a few years from now. Re: Berkman and Beltran. Anything's possible. Berkman has an extensive conditioning program during the offseason. Worked pretty well for him last year. Beltran will get plenty of rest after Craig returns. It's a dog fight between the Cards, Brewers and Reds. Who stays healthy likely to dictate. The Cardinals are not an old team but they do have old players. They are much more balanced than say the Phillies who actually are old. They have a plan in place to replace obsolescence. Whether it works or not is anybody's guess. Cubs not relevant in 2012. Gonna have to hurry if they want to be in 2013. The rotation, even adding Wood, is a disgrace for a team with that payroll.

Right. Winning the WS in 2011 was a completely unrelated event. Good to learn from a team that paid $227M for Soriano and Zambrano. #-o The Cards have only 5 years left with Holliday. My guess is 3-4 of those will be productive. That's pretty much what the Angels should get with AP as they are exactly the same age. But, with a ten year contract. You get that doncha? Sorry, just not sure how much needs to be explained to a guy who elects his governors for terms of ten to life.

The Cardinals play baseball don't they? I am definitely a Cardinals fan. When/if the Cubs play baseball, I'll be a Cubs fan too. Why don't you show me where I "fooled you" into thinking I was pretending to be a Cubs fan? I haven't been on this forum long enough to be one.

I think every Cardinal fan knew exactly how spoiled they were. They also knew it wasn't going to last forever. You're right. There's a lot less margin for error. With a bigger budget and a new FO team in place, the Cubs have a window opening. It's about time to lose a few contracts and bring some quality pitching on board. Cubdom focus shouldn't be on the demise of the Cardinals, but the rise of the Cubs.

It's all true. That's what they were saying about Edmonds, McGwire, Renteria and Walker.... Going to hell without 'em. They don't have a Pujols now making small amounts of money while being one of the best players ever, tell me you get why that is important to their success the past 10 years. Yeah, I think all Cardinal fans get that Albert was a force in the middle of that order. That's why the FO went out and got Holliday so he could protect Pujols' at bat. They also get that he was a real bargain. But, they were also smart enough to figure out that Pujols wasn't going to be young Pujols forever. Old Pujols wasn't going to be the beast that young Pujols was and he was going to cost a ton more money and for a lot longer than they might want to sign him. That's why Pujols isn't going to be a St Louis icon. Pujols has been in decline for 3 years. Last year he led the league in gidp's and his OPS was the lowest in his 11 years. In fact Beltran's OPS was higher last year. So, I wouldn't put all my eggs in the basket that says "Albert doesn't live there any more." It was bound to happen...kinda like some day the Cubs will get out from under Soriano's contract.... :banghead: Only different. Losing Albert wasn't a happy ocassion, but it's probably a good business decision. Tell me you get that.

It's all true. That's what they were saying about Edmonds, McGwire, Renteria and Walker.... Going to hell without 'em.

He's right tho. Sosa is only early 30s. Woods gonna bounce back from TJS. In the minors they have Prior, Zambrano, Guzman, Cruz. Plus hitting prospect Corey Patterson who BA has as the number three guy in all of baseball. And Bobby Hill who has a great OBP. This window isn't closing anytime soon.... That might work if we can keep Bartman out of the stands. Still, Prior's gonna have shoulder problems and Zambrano... he might be a head case. Oh, that damned billy goat. Where's the pixie dust when you need it?

Beltran will be 35 in April and Furcal is 34. So? Beltran is coming off of a .910 OPS and they don't even need him to play everyday. They'll still have Jay and Craig in the outfield if Beltran is on the bench. Both were productive players hitting over .300 last year. Both Beltran and Furcal are on 2 year contracts so the Cards aren't planning a huge future for either. 28 with an extensive injury history, one season's worth of MLB PA spread out over 3 and 116 OPS+ (boosted by an absurd BABIP). He's a nice player, but if his BABIP drops you're looking at a league average hitter who can't stay healthy. And the NLCS/WS MVP doesn't mean [expletive]. I expect him to drop off to a 90-100 OPS+ guy this season if teams realize that he can't pull the ball with much power and pound him inside. Yep. He injured an ankle and required extensive surgery. He played all of last year on that ankle without a problem. He was out for seven weeks when his hand was broken by an inside pitch. He still managed to hit close to .300 as he's done all his professional career. If you don't think he has any power inside, you're in for a rude awakening. One of the nice problems the Cards have is Matt Carpenter and his .400 OBP in Memphis is looking for an opening. Zach Cox in AA is waiting behind him. Holliday is awesome. Wainwright is a bit of an unknown after TJS and only under contract for 2 more years. Molina is a catcher about to 30 which is 65 in MLB years and only under contract for 1 year. Craig has a half season's worth of MLB PA and is coming off of knee surgery. Garcia is good and signed to nice contract. I think Craig is legit, but would classify Jay and Freese as roleplayers. TJ surgery is about as guaranteed an outcome as they get in baseball. Pitchers often return with a livelier fastball because the tendon is stronger than the ligament it replaces. You really aren't counting on Wainwright to struggle are you? Molina just came off his best hitting year ever. He could slow down in his fielding every year for the next four and still be an above average catcher. Young Cruz coming up behind him had a nice ML debut last year and may eventually take some playing time from him. I agree that Jay may never be more than a roleplayer but all he's done is hit .300 since he's been in the majors. I think you're dead wrong about Freese. Carpenter? He's a work horse like Halladay. His physical conditioning left him stronger not weaker as the year wore on. You can will him wearing down all you want but he's been just like the energizer bunny. When he does wear out they'll just bring Miller up. That's not necessarily going to be a good thing for the NL Central. Cleto? I'll take that bet. He was floundering in the Seattle system but worked his way thru A, AA and AAA to a walk on in the majors last year. His stuff was high 90's in the 7th inning last year. He's got nasty movement and 3 solid pitches. His control was significantly better last year and if he makes even a modicum improvement from last year you'll eat your words on that prediction. They don't need him but there's enough pixie dust... Actually the position player situation isn't that bad. Ryan Jackson is an excellent fielding SS who'll play in Memphis this year. His bat has been solid the last 2 years with a solid OPS+ (34 doubles in Springfield). He hit .342 in AFL. Taveras and Wong are obvious, but Cox is a solid hitter who worked hard on his fielding last year. This year will tell a lot on what his future looks like. Matt Carpenter is a very good fielding 3rd baseman. Not only the .400 OBP but sprays the ball to all fields with an .880 OPS last year. There aren't any Pujols sitting around in their farm but the arms are scary good and you can figure they'll make some trades if they need bolstering.

Curious as to what their future plans hold though. They may have a better farm system than we do but they might not be too far away from looking worse than we do now. What does this even mean? I'm not sure he could tell you. I think what he's saying is that while the Cards have a decent farm system, they're not particularly well set up for the long term. And there is some truth to that, I think. Basically their current team has a lot of 35 an older guys and the younger guys seem more like role players than anything else with the possible exception of Garcia. I really dont see Freese, Craig, and Jay as guys that are going to take the team into the future. They have a good farm system but it's far from the type you look at and say who cares how old our current roster there are a lot of guys that will be gone by the time we hope to compete again. Then again, like the Twins, you can never count them out long term no matter how many top players they lose so who knows. Who's 35 besides Berkman and Carpenter? Even Beltran's only 34. Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28? Holliday is 31. Wainwright is 30. Molina is 29. Allen Craig is 27. Garcia is 25. Carpenter is 36 but likely lasts well with his remaining 2 year contract. Waiting in the wings to replace Carp is Shelby Miller regarded as one of the top 2 or 3 prospects in BA. Carlos Martinez a year behind Shelby...considered to have better stuff than Miller. A handful of very talented arms like Jenkins, Rosenthal, Cleto etc coming up right behind. Taveras, Adams, Wong and Cox all position players due to the majors in one to three years. If there's any saving grace it's that the architect of this farm revival, Luhnow, just got hired as the GM of the 'Stros.

Kinda like the hiring of Sveum.

Albert loves Matheny. The two are going to Santo Domingo later. Albert has said he considers Matheny his "mentor in Christ". I think, however, that the Benjamins will have more to do with Albert re-signing in St Louis than who is managing. Suffice it to say Matheny doesn't hurt...especially since the Cards will have a couple extra million to throw at Pujols. Eckstein's suggestion that Albert would sign if Oquendo were manager is from out in left field. So, does this make Francona more or less likely to become a Cub?

Nope. Feel free to languish in your paranoia NKA free.

I'm saying that I am a very big fan of baseball who visits numerous message boards and ocassionally contributes in areas that interest me. I can discuss the prospect system of every team in the majors with some detail...not just the Cardinals. I do find, however, that on this forum there is a propensity to obsess about the Cardinals, so I offered comment both pro and con. If you actually read my LaRussa post it hardly concentrated on the prospects...but mentioned them as it relates to LaRussa and his successor. Since the post about LaRussa, I've found myself embroiled in your controversies. I've visited and read this forum countless times throughout the year. Given the angst over their season, I saw no reason to add to it. The prospect system is merely adequate. But you needn't worry. If all NSBB has to offer is insults, I'll gladly move along.

Not so much an insult as an objective observation. All right, I'll bite. To what end? You showed up early in the 2010 season to defend Adam Ottavino, disappeared for about a year and a half and returned only when the cards were in the world series to make a bunch of transparently partisan remarks in the post season thread. Not to mention your contribution to this thread. It's ok to be a cards fan here. Just don't jerk people around pretending to be a Cubs fan. Its obnoxious. On the contrary I mentioned that I'd seen Ottavino pitch in the minors once. The next two threads were about Cubs leadership or lack thereof. I talked about the Cardinals during the WS like a fan of baseball. I'm just as happy about the Cardinals winning the WS as I am about the Cubs doing so, it just hasn't paid much dividends in Wrigley lately. I never tried to pretend anything.

The thread was about LaRussa. I wasn't the one off topic.

Not so much an insult as an objective observation. All right, I'll bite. To what end?

BA had Martinez at #18 in MLB in their mid season update. Consensus seems to be that he has better raw stuff and upside than Miller but there are concerns about his frame and he's not as polished. I didn't read that other guy's post, but saying that Martinez is on Miller's level as a prospect isn't really a stretch. What I said was that they had 3 potential number 1's with Miller, Martinez and Jenkins and a potential #2 in Rosenthal. SSR decided the best defense was to take offense. When I pointed that it was Sickles point of view, he had a hissy fit. Everybody, except perhaps SSR, knows that prospects are not guarantees. But the Cardinals farm system is pretty loaded right now. I suggested that LaRussa may have decided that someone else would be better suited to nursemaid those prospects as they matriculate thru the system the next few years...especially after being worn out by Rasmus. It's just an opinion, but makes sense to me. Not expecting much in a grown up discussion from SSR who's best insult is that someone is a Cards fan.

This guy here. And I don't think he's a Cards fan posing as anything. Get it? So not at the same level as Miller then. Got it. ETA: Weirdo. Don't take your anger out on me Bubby. If you have an issue with what I said you haven't articulated it yet. Sickles is the guy who's fired up about their farm. I'm pretty sure I described his comments correctly. If you don't like it, take it up with him. It's not a prerequisite to hate the Cardinals in order to like the Cubs. You've just made it an art form.

This guy here. And I don't think he's a Cards fan posing as anything. Get it?

LaRussa retiring can only be a good thing for Cubdom. He was a manager Chicago loved to hate, but he was always prepared and exacted superb effort from his players. One of the game's great icons is departing the scene and leaving St Louis with a few questions at a vulnerable moment. Reportedly, LaRussa made his mind up in August. While he may have suspected that Albert was leaving, I doubt the leaving (or not), per se, played a focal part in his decision-making. LaRussa was tired of the second guessing by St Louis' scribes and the fan base. He was tired of the "faction" which has always chosen to look past his successes and hate him, anyway. His thoughts regarding Pujols may well be less directed at where Pujols plays than how he does. Albert is aging and while it's still somewhat graceful, parts of this year shows that it will become less so in the years to come. Pujols bounced into the most DP's of any player in either league. (The Cardinals at one time led the NL with all three of the top spots in that ignominious category, Pujols, Molina and Holliday). As it pertains to Pujols, the Cards are in something of a can't win series of options: The two leading candidates are 1) he goes 2) he stays and gets another year older and as Tennessee Ernie Ford used to croon (DeWitt) deeper in debt. I don't think LaRussa felt either scenario was going to be fun for him to preside over. Of course the Cardinals farm system has become one of the best in the majors. They have 3 potential #1's percolating in the system with Miller, Martinez and Jenkins...and a not very far behind #2 in Rosenthal. Figuring that Wainwright and Garcia will be there for quite a while, the rotation is in great shape. Their bullpen will be well stocked as well....Sanchez, Lynn, Cleto, Swagerty, Gast, etc Some of the position players pushing up the system are no slouches as well. Adams (1B), Jackson (SS), Wong (2B), Carpenter and Cox (3B) Taveras (OF), Cruz ©, Tommy Pham (CF). Perhaps LaRussa thought this was a good time to bow out and let someone else nursemaid all this young talent. No doubt Coby Rasmus took a lot if not all the reserve LaRussa had in dealing with problem children. If you ask me, LaRussa did what was best for St Louis by leaving when he did. He figures that Duncan, the power behind the throne, would stick around for another year or two and help the new guy get settled. For me, that is the guy whose departure will have the greater impact. Then again, if he stays two one of his star pupils will become a potential candidate for the job. Don't laugh but Carpenter is a student of the game and a coach to the others. Anyway, LaRussa is gone and Cubdom should rejoice...for the time being.

I don't see that they were exceptionally lucky as much as they were a well crafted team that overcame significant adversity. They lost their best pitcher in spring training. They lost their closer, who was an all star 2 years ago, in the first week....or he lost it. Holliday, Pujols, Freese and half of their bullpen were out significant periods with maladies. They survived with friggin' Theriot as their SS more than half the season. Mozeliak did a helluva job bolstering that club for the late run. If you want to hate them, be my guest, but I tip my hat to them... :hello: Just maybe Theo can do something here to help us contend in a year or two. I wonder if Theo will chase Sabathia if he breaks away from the Yankees or Wilson from Texas. The Cubs could use some serious pitching.

Perhaps you've never heard of Zambrano. :hello: he didn't say he was the only d-bag, he said "ONE of the biggest" As d'bags go, they are not in the same league. Carpenter makes his opponents and their fans livid. His teammates and organization love him.