Cards Sign Beltran

[Mike_Mun]

I think I'm going to be very curious how long they stick with the idea of giving Beltran looks in CF when Craig gets back. I'm not sure I buy Beltran playing Cf.

 

All that said, good move on their part, and keeps their short term window, with Berkman/Carpenter, open a bit.

 

Curious as to what their future plans hold though. They may have a better farm system than we do but they might not be too far away from looking worse than we do now.

What does this even mean?

 

I'm not sure he could tell you. I think what he's saying is that while the Cards have a decent farm system, they're not particularly well set up for the long term.

 

And there is some truth to that, I think.

 

Basically their current team has a lot of 35 an older guys and the younger guys seem more like role players than anything else with the possible exception of Garcia. I really dont see Freese, Craig, and Jay as guys that are going to take the team into the future. They have a good farm system but it's far from the type you look at and say who cares how old our current roster there are a lot of guys that will be gone by the time we hope to compete again. Then again, like the Twins, you can never count them out long term no matter how many top players they lose so who knows.

 

Who's 35 besides Berkman and Carpenter? Even Beltran's only 34.

 

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28? Holliday is 31. Wainwright is 30. Molina is 29. Allen Craig is 27. Garcia is 25.

 

Carpenter is 36 but likely lasts well with his remaining 2 year contract. Waiting in the wings to replace Carp is Shelby Miller regarded as one of the top 2 or 3 prospects in BA.

Carlos Martinez a year behind Shelby...considered to have better stuff than Miller. A handful of very talented arms like Jenkins, Rosenthal, Cleto etc coming up right behind. Taveras, Adams, Wong and Cox all position players due to the majors in one to three years.

 

If there's any saving grace it's that the architect of this farm revival, Luhnow, just got hired as the GM of the 'Stros.

[Clem Fandango]

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28?

 

Really? As if that's supposed to help sway anyone's opinion?

[NonProfitCow]

Who's 35 besides Berkman and Carpenter? Even Beltran's only 34.

Beltran will be 35 in April and Furcal is 34.

 

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28?

28 with an extensive injury history, one season's worth of MLB PA spread out over 3 and 116 OPS+ (boosted by an absurd BABIP). He's a nice player, but if his BABIP drops you're looking at a league average hitter who can't stay healthy. And the NLCS/WS MVP doesn't mean [expletive]. I expect him to drop off to a 90-100 OPS+ guy this season if teams realize that he can't pull the ball with much power and pound him inside.

Holliday is 31. Wainwright is 30. Molina is 29. Allen Craig is 27. Garcia is 25.

Holliday is awesome. Wainwright is a bit of an unknown after TJS and only under contract for 2 more years. Molina is a catcher about to 30 which is 65 in MLB years and only under contract for 1 year. Craig has a half season's worth of MLB PA and is coming off of knee surgery. Garcia is good and signed to nice contract. I think Craig is legit, but would classify Jay and Freese as roleplayers.

 

Carpenter is 36 but likely lasts well with his remaining 2 year contract. Waiting in the wings to replace Carp is Shelby Miller regarded as one of the top 2 or 3 prospects in BA.

Carlos Martinez a year behind Shelby...considered to have better stuff than Miller. A handful of very talented arms like Jenkins, Rosenthal, Cleto etc coming up right behind. Taveras, Adams, Wong and Cox all position players due to the majors in one to three years.

Carpenter is pretty much the opposite of "likely" to last well. Turns 37 is April, has had numerous arm injuries and threw 270 innings last year. NEVER include Cleto as any type of prospect. He throws hard, has no offspeed stuff and no clue where the ball is going. He'll have been outrighted off the 40 man this time next year.

 

It's a boom or bust team for the next 2 years, but a ton of payroll coming off the books. Farm really needs some position players though. Outside of Taveras and Wong (who hasn't even played half a season) there's not much. It's all pitching.

 

If there's any saving grace it's that the architect of this farm revival, Luhnow, just got hired as the GM of the 'Stros.

[NonProfitCow]

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28?

 

Really? As if that's supposed to help sway anyone's opinion?

DOES HE LOOK LIKE HE'S KIDDING AROUND???

[TruffleShuffle]

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28? Holliday is 31. Wainwright is 30. Molina is 29. Allen Craig is 27. Garcia is 25.

 

guys on steroids don't count; that eliminates most of your list.

[A New Era]

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28? Holliday is 31. Wainwright is 30. Molina is 29. Allen Craig is 27. Garcia is 25.

 

guys on pixie dust don't count; that eliminates all of the cards roster.

 

fixed. :D

[Mike_Mun]

Who's 35 besides Berkman and Carpenter? Even Beltran's only 34.

Beltran will be 35 in April and Furcal is 34.

 

So? Beltran is coming off of a .910 OPS and they don't even need him to play everyday. They'll still have Jay and Craig in the outfield if Beltran is on the bench. Both were productive players hitting over .300 last year. Both Beltran and Furcal are on 2 year contracts so the Cards aren't planning a huge future for either.

 

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28?

28 with an extensive injury history, one season's worth of MLB PA spread out over 3 and 116 OPS+ (boosted by an absurd BABIP). He's a nice player, but if his BABIP drops you're looking at a league average hitter who can't stay healthy. And the NLCS/WS MVP doesn't mean [expletive]. I expect him to drop off to a 90-100 OPS+ guy this season if teams realize that he can't pull the ball with much power and pound him inside.

 

Yep. He injured an ankle and required extensive surgery. He played all of last year on that ankle without a problem. He was out for seven weeks when his hand was broken by an inside pitch. He still managed to hit close to .300 as he's done all his professional career. If you don't think he has any power inside, you're in for a rude awakening. One of the nice problems the Cards have is Matt Carpenter and his .400 OBP in Memphis is looking for an opening. Zach Cox in AA is waiting behind him.

 

Holliday is 31. Wainwright is 30. Molina is 29. Allen Craig is 27. Garcia is 25.

Holliday is awesome. Wainwright is a bit of an unknown after TJS and only under contract for 2 more years. Molina is a catcher about to 30 which is 65 in MLB years and only under contract for 1 year. Craig has a half season's worth of MLB PA and is coming off of knee surgery. Garcia is good and signed to nice contract. I think Craig is legit, but would classify Jay and Freese as roleplayers.

 

TJ surgery is about as guaranteed an outcome as they get in baseball. Pitchers often return with a livelier fastball because the tendon is stronger than the ligament it replaces. You really aren't counting on Wainwright to struggle are you? Molina just came off his best hitting year ever. He could slow down in his fielding every year for the next four and still be an above average catcher. Young Cruz coming up behind him had a nice ML debut last year and may eventually take some playing time from him. I agree that Jay may never be more than a roleplayer but all he's done is hit .300 since he's been in the majors. I think you're dead wrong about Freese.

 

 

Carpenter is 36 but likely lasts well with his remaining 2 year contract. Waiting in the wings to replace Carp is Shelby Miller regarded as one of the top 2 or 3 prospects in BA.

Carlos Martinez a year behind Shelby...considered to have better stuff than Miller. A handful of very talented arms like Jenkins, Rosenthal, Cleto etc coming up right behind. Taveras, Adams, Wong and Cox all position players due to the majors in one to three years.

 

Carpenter is pretty much the opposite of "likely" to last well. Turns 37 is April, has had numerous arm injuries and threw 270 innings last year. NEVER include Cleto as any type of prospect. He throws hard, has no offspeed stuff and no clue where the ball is going. He'll have been outrighted off the 40 man this time next year.

 

It's a boom or bust team for the next 2 years, but a ton of payroll coming off the books. Farm really needs some position players though. Outside of Taveras and Wong (who hasn't even played half a season) there's not much. It's all pitching.

 

Carpenter? He's a work horse like Halladay. His physical conditioning left him stronger not weaker as the year wore on. You can will him wearing down all you want but he's been just like the energizer bunny. When he does wear out they'll just bring Miller up. That's not necessarily going to be a good thing for the NL Central.

 

Cleto? I'll take that bet. He was floundering in the Seattle system but worked his way thru A, AA and AAA to a walk on in the majors last year. His stuff was high 90's in the 7th inning last year. He's got nasty movement and 3 solid pitches. His control was significantly better last year and if he makes even a modicum improvement from last year you'll eat your words on that prediction. They don't need him but there's enough pixie dust...

 

Actually the position player situation isn't that bad. Ryan Jackson is an excellent fielding SS who'll play in Memphis this year. His bat has been solid the last 2 years with a solid OPS+ (34 doubles in Springfield). He hit .342 in AFL.

Taveras and Wong are obvious, but Cox is a solid hitter who worked hard on his fielding last year. This year will tell a lot on what his future looks like. Matt Carpenter is a very good fielding 3rd baseman. Not only the .400 OBP but sprays the ball to all fields with an .880 OPS last year.

 

There aren't any Pujols sitting around in their farm but the arms are scary good and you can figure they'll make some trades if they need bolstering.

[SouthSideRyan]

Seriously guys, he's not a Cardinal fan

[illiniguy]

Seriously guys, he's not a Cardinal fan

He's right tho. Sosa is only early 30s. Woods gonna bounce back from TJS. In the minors they have Prior, Zambrano, Guzman, Cruz. Plus hitting prospect Corey Patterson who BA has as the number three guy in all of baseball. And Bobby Hill who has a great OBP. This window isn't closing anytime soon....

[Mike_Mun]

Seriously guys, he's not a Cardinal fan

He's right tho. Sosa is only early 30s. Woods gonna bounce back from TJS. In the minors they have Prior, Zambrano, Guzman, Cruz. Plus hitting prospect Corey Patterson who BA has as the number three guy in all of baseball. And Bobby Hill who has a great OBP. This window isn't closing anytime soon....

 

That might work if we can keep Bartman out of the stands. Still, Prior's gonna have shoulder problems and Zambrano... he might be a head case. Oh, that damned billy goat. Where's the pixie dust when you need it?

[Little Slide Rooter]

I don't know all of their ages, but Carpenter, Berkman, Beltran, and Furcal are all old and fragile. Holliday seems to be becoming fragile as well. Wainright just came off of TJS which shouldnt hold him back assuming it was successful but its not like he didn't have his share of injuries before that. In the minors they have Cox, Miller and one other top pitching prospect and then there's Jay, Freese, and Craig, all who could be big in their log term plans but the majority of the guys on the current roster are win now players and when they all depart in the next 2-3 years they'll have some major rebuilding to do.

[Mike_Mun]

I don't know all of their ages, but Carpenter, Berkman, Beltran, and Furcal are all old and fragile. Holliday seems to be becoming fragile as well. Wainright just came off of TJS which shouldnt hold him back assuming it was successful but its not like he didn't have his share of injuries before that. In the minors they have Cox, Miller and one other top pitching prospect and then there's Jay, Freese, and Craig, all who could be big in their log term plans but the majority of the guys on the current roster are win now players and when they all depart in the next 2-3 years they'll have some major rebuilding to do.

 

It's all true. That's what they were saying about Edmonds, McGwire, Renteria and Walker.... Going to hell without 'em.

[illiniguy]

I don't know all of their ages, but Carpenter, Berkman, Beltran, and Furcal are all old and fragile. Holliday seems to be becoming fragile as well. Wainright just came off of TJS which shouldnt hold him back assuming it was successful but its not like he didn't have his share of injuries before that. In the minors they have Cox, Miller and one other top pitching prospect and then there's Jay, Freese, and Craig, all who could be big in their log term plans but the majority of the guys on the current roster are win now players and when they all depart in the next 2-3 years they'll have some major rebuilding to do.

 

It's all true. That's what they were saying about Edmonds, McGwire, Renteria and Walker.... Going to hell without 'em.

They don't have a Pujols now making small amounts of money while being one of the best players ever, tell me you get why that is important to their success the past 10 years.

[TruffleShuffle]

lol yeah everyone said the cards were going down the toilet without edgar renteria and indispensable larry walker who didn't even play a full season's worth of games in a cardinal uniform.

[XZero771679666304]

I don't know all of their ages, but Carpenter, Berkman, Beltran, and Furcal are all old and fragile. Holliday seems to be becoming fragile as well. Wainright just came off of TJS which shouldnt hold him back assuming it was successful but its not like he didn't have his share of injuries before that. In the minors they have Cox, Miller and one other top pitching prospect and then there's Jay, Freese, and Craig, all who could be big in their log term plans but the majority of the guys on the current roster are win now players and when they all depart in the next 2-3 years they'll have some major rebuilding to do.

 

It's all true. That's what they were saying about Edmonds, McGwire, Renteria and Walker.... Going to hell without 'em.

They don't have a Pujols now making small amounts of money while being one of the best players ever, tell me you get why that is important to their success the past 10 years.

 

I don't think a lot of Cardinals fans realize how spoiled they were during Albert's tenure there. No matter what changes went on around him, you had that beast as an anchor in the middle of the lineup being historically good for well below market value.

 

It's easy to forget the Cards weren't exactly setting the world on fire before Pujols got there. They'll still be good, but without the greatest player of our generation to fall back on, there's a lot less margin for error.

[XZero771679666304]

lol yeah everyone said the cards were going down the toilet without edgar renteria and indispensable larry walker who didn't even play a full season's worth of games in a cardinal uniform.

 

What everyone was saying was "Well, they still have Albert."

[NonProfitCow]

Who's 35 besides Berkman and Carpenter? Even Beltran's only 34.

Beltran will be 35 in April and Furcal is 34.

 

So? Beltran is coming off of a .910 OPS and they don't even need him to play everyday. They'll still have Jay and Craig in the outfield if Beltran is on the bench. Both were productive players hitting over .300 last year. Both Beltran and Furcal are on 2 year contracts so the Cards aren't planning a huge future for either.

 

Younger guys role players? Like David Freese,MVP NLCS and WS, 28?

28 with an extensive injury history, one season's worth of MLB PA spread out over 3 and 116 OPS+ (boosted by an absurd BABIP). He's a nice player, but if his BABIP drops you're looking at a league average hitter who can't stay healthy. And the NLCS/WS MVP doesn't mean [expletive]. I expect him to drop off to a 90-100 OPS+ guy this season if teams realize that he can't pull the ball with much power and pound him inside.

 

Yep. He injured an ankle and required extensive surgery. He played all of last year on that ankle without a problem. He was out for seven weeks when his hand was broken by an inside pitch. He still managed to hit close to .300 as he's done all his professional career. If you don't think he has any power inside, you're in for a rude awakening. One of the nice problems the Cards have is Matt Carpenter and his .400 OBP in Memphis is looking for an opening. Zach Cox in AA is waiting behind him.

 

Holliday is 31. Wainwright is 30. Molina is 29. Allen Craig is 27. Garcia is 25.

Holliday is awesome. Wainwright is a bit of an unknown after TJS and only under contract for 2 more years. Molina is a catcher about to 30 which is 65 in MLB years and only under contract for 1 year. Craig has a half season's worth of MLB PA and is coming off of knee surgery. Garcia is good and signed to nice contract. I think Craig is legit, but would classify Jay and Freese as roleplayers.

 

TJ surgery is about as guaranteed an outcome as they get in baseball. Pitchers often return with a livelier fastball because the tendon is stronger than the ligament it replaces. You really aren't counting on Wainwright to struggle are you? Molina just came off his best hitting year ever. He could slow down in his fielding every year for the next four and still be an above average catcher. Young Cruz coming up behind him had a nice ML debut last year and may eventually take some playing time from him. I agree that Jay may never be more than a roleplayer but all he's done is hit .300 since he's been in the majors. I think you're dead wrong about Freese.

 

 

Carpenter is 36 but likely lasts well with his remaining 2 year contract. Waiting in the wings to replace Carp is Shelby Miller regarded as one of the top 2 or 3 prospects in BA.

Carlos Martinez a year behind Shelby...considered to have better stuff than Miller. A handful of very talented arms like Jenkins, Rosenthal, Cleto etc coming up right behind. Taveras, Adams, Wong and Cox all position players due to the majors in one to three years.

 

Carpenter is pretty much the opposite of "likely" to last well. Turns 37 is April, has had numerous arm injuries and threw 270 innings last year. NEVER include Cleto as any type of prospect. He throws hard, has no offspeed stuff and no clue where the ball is going. He'll have been outrighted off the 40 man this time next year.

 

It's a boom or bust team for the next 2 years, but a ton of payroll coming off the books. Farm really needs some position players though. Outside of Taveras and Wong (who hasn't even played half a season) there's not much. It's all pitching.

 

Carpenter? He's a work horse like Halladay. His physical conditioning left him stronger not weaker as the year wore on. You can will him wearing down all you want but he's been just like the energizer bunny. When he does wear out they'll just bring Miller up. That's not necessarily going to be a good thing for the NL Central.

 

Cleto? I'll take that bet. He was floundering in the Seattle system but worked his way thru A, AA and AAA to a walk on in the majors last year. His stuff was high 90's in the 7th inning last year. He's got nasty movement and 3 solid pitches. His control was significantly better last year and if he makes even a modicum improvement from last year you'll eat your words on that prediction. They don't need him but there's enough pixie dust...

 

Actually the position player situation isn't that bad. Ryan Jackson is an excellent fielding SS who'll play in Memphis this year. His bat has been solid the last 2 years with a solid OPS+ (34 doubles in Springfield). He hit .342 in AFL.

Taveras and Wong are obvious, but Cox is a solid hitter who worked hard on his fielding last year. This year will tell a lot on what his future looks like. Matt Carpenter is a very good fielding 3rd baseman. Not only the .400 OBP but sprays the ball to all fields with an .880 OPS last year.

 

There aren't any Pujols sitting around in their farm but the arms are scary good and you can figure they'll make some trades if they need bolstering.

You're embarrassing.

[Mike_Mun]

I don't know all of their ages, but Carpenter, Berkman, Beltran, and Furcal are all old and fragile. Holliday seems to be becoming fragile as well. Wainright just came off of TJS which shouldnt hold him back assuming it was successful but its not like he didn't have his share of injuries before that. In the minors they have Cox, Miller and one other top pitching prospect and then there's Jay, Freese, and Craig, all who could be big in their log term plans but the majority of the guys on the current roster are win now players and when they all depart in the next 2-3 years they'll have some major rebuilding to do.

 

It's all true. That's what they were saying about Edmonds, McGwire, Renteria and Walker.... Going to hell without 'em.

They don't have a Pujols now making small amounts of money while being one of the best players ever, tell me you get why that is important to their success the past 10 years.

 

Yeah, I think all Cardinal fans get that Albert was a force in the middle of that order. That's why the FO went out and got Holliday so he could protect Pujols' at bat. They also get that he was a real bargain. But, they were also smart enough to figure out that Pujols wasn't going to be young Pujols forever. Old Pujols wasn't going to be the beast that young Pujols was and he was going to cost a ton more money and for a lot longer than they might want to sign him. That's why Pujols isn't going to be a St Louis icon.

 

Pujols has been in decline for 3 years. Last year he led the league in gidp's and his OPS was the lowest in his 11 years. In fact Beltran's OPS was higher last year. So, I wouldn't put all my eggs in the basket that says "Albert doesn't live there any more." It was bound to happen...kinda like some day the Cubs will get out from under Soriano's contract.... :banghead: Only different. Losing Albert wasn't a happy ocassion, but it's probably a good business decision.

 

Tell me you get that.

[Mike_Mun]

I don't think a lot of Cardinals fans realize how spoiled they were during Albert's tenure there. No matter what changes went on around him, you had that beast as an anchor in the middle of the lineup being historically good for well below market value.

 

It's easy to forget the Cards weren't exactly setting the world on fire before Pujols got there. They'll still be good, but without the greatest player of our generation to fall back on, there's a lot less margin for error.

 

I think every Cardinal fan knew exactly how spoiled they were. They also knew it wasn't going to last forever.

 

You're right. There's a lot less margin for error.

 

With a bigger budget and a new FO team in place, the Cubs have a window opening. It's about time to lose a few contracts and bring some quality pitching on board. Cubdom focus shouldn't be on the demise of the Cardinals, but the rise of the Cubs.

[TruffleShuffle]

boy this particular poster, who is definitely not a cardinal fan, sure knows and posts a lot about the cardinals.

[Mike_Mun]

boy this particular poster, who is definitely not a cardinal fan, sure knows and posts a lot about the cardinals.

 

The Cardinals play baseball don't they? I am definitely a Cardinals fan. When/if the Cubs play baseball, I'll be a Cubs fan too.

 

Why don't you show me where I "fooled you" into thinking I was pretending to be a Cubs fan? I haven't been on this forum long enough to be one.

[TruffleShuffle]

[expletive] the cubs are a basketball team? i've been fooled all these years.

[illiniguy]

This guy is great. I predict 200 wins for the Cardinals next year. That Mo, so smart. And you do realize you lost Pujols because you bid against yourself for Holliday, right? The same Holliday who will most likely age worse than Pujols. But hey, just pretend they'll keep on keeping on.

[Mike_Mun]

This guy is great. I predict 200 wins for the Cardinals next year. That Mo, so smart. And you do realize you lost Pujols because you bid against yourself for Holliday, right? The same Holliday who will most likely age worse than Pujols. But hey, just pretend they'll keep on keeping on.

 

Right. Winning the WS in 2011 was a completely unrelated event. Good to learn from a team that paid $227M for Soriano and Zambrano. #-o

 

The Cards have only 5 years left with Holliday. My guess is 3-4 of those will be productive. That's pretty much what the Angels should get with AP as they are exactly the same age. But, with a ten year contract. You get that doncha?

 

Sorry, just not sure how much needs to be explained to a guy who elects his governors for terms of ten to life.

[Little Slide Rooter]

This guy is great. I predict 200 wins for the Cardinals next year. That Mo, so smart. And you do realize you lost Pujols because you bid against yourself for Holliday, right? The same Holliday who will most likely age worse than Pujols. But hey, just pretend they'll keep on keeping on.

 

Right. Winning the WS in 2011 was a completely unrelated event. Good to learn from a team that paid $227M for Soriano and Zambrano. #-o

 

The Cards have only 5 years left with Holliday. My guess is 3-4 of those will be productive. That's pretty much what the Angels should get with AP as they are exactly the same age. But, with a ten year contract. You get that doncha?

 

Sorry, just not sure how much needs to be explained to a guy who elect his governors for terms of ten to life.

 

Yes, The Cardinals still have a good but old team, but you need to stop acting as though the loss of best player of this generation isnt going to phase them. If it were 2005, having Beltran, Holliday, and Berkman through the heart of the order would be outworldly, but I really dont like the chances of the killer B's stayng healthy for the majority of the season and at this point, those guys are key to the team and you can't just dig into AAA and replace them with some version of Jake LaHoffpauir.