Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[Mr.X]

 

Sure the description is relevant though, its a promotion on paper but in reality hes going to be doing the same job, hence is why the Sox asked for compensation before granting permission.

 

The paper is all that matters. If this was to go before a mediator that argument would be dismissed out of hand. And it has been made fairly clear that Lucchino has meddled in baseball ops throughout, so let's not pretend Theo is reporting only to Henry, as he would only be reporting to Ricketts, in actuality and contractually.

 

Trying to spin this into a lateral move is laughable.

 

Since 2006 when has Lucchino clearly meddled in Baseball ops...this is my issue with what you're presenting right now. I haven't seen evidence of this, and believe me I'd love to hear how it was him and not Theo that signed Lackey...since I can't stand the guy...but really? Yes its a promotion on paper but we all know that hes going to be doing the same thing. Bottom line...Cubs knew compensation would be involved and they proceeded...

[XZero771679666304]

 

Sure the description is relevant though, its a promotion on paper but in reality hes going to be doing the same job, hence is why the Sox asked for compensation before granting permission.

 

The paper is all that matters. If this was to go before a mediator that argument would be dismissed out of hand. And it has been made fairly clear that Lucchino has meddled in baseball ops throughout, so let's not pretend Theo is reporting only to Henry, as he would only be reporting to Ricketts, in actuality and contractually.

 

Trying to spin this into a lateral move is laughable.

He's avoiding my question.

 

Because the notion that he has be position because Lucchino lets him have the responsibility at his whim is preposterous.

 

"Hey, we're not officially making you president of baseball ops, but we'll let you do the job. That is unless Larry decides he wants to overrule you because you're not actually the president of baseball ops. But you effectively are, unless we want to step in. So it's really the same, okay?"

 

LOL

[Mr.X]

Mr X.

 

I think JWH might be distracted these days and has his mind on his new wife. It's messing up his negotiating skills :)

 

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2009/06/30/john_henry3__1246388703_0150.jpg

 

I still haven't seen a body pic...please post that next time...and according to Henry...Luccino does his job, not him. I personally think if Cherrington was doing the work this thing would be done already...Lucky isn't the most ideal person to deal with...

[VVMattVV]

I kinda want an answer to this question from a Boston fan...

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

 

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06

The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no?

 

Wow. No.

[Guest]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

[XZero771679666304]

 

Sure the description is relevant though, its a promotion on paper but in reality hes going to be doing the same job, hence is why the Sox asked for compensation before granting permission.

 

The paper is all that matters. If this was to go before a mediator that argument would be dismissed out of hand. And it has been made fairly clear that Lucchino has meddled in baseball ops throughout, so let's not pretend Theo is reporting only to Henry, as he would only be reporting to Ricketts, in actuality and contractually.

 

Trying to spin this into a lateral move is laughable.

 

Since 2006 when has Lucchino clearly meddled in Baseball ops...this is my issue with what you're presenting right now. I haven't seen evidence of this, and believe me I'd love to hear how it was him and not Theo that signed Lackey...since I can't stand the guy...but really? Yes its a promotion on paper but we all know that hes going to be doing the same thing. Bottom line...Cubs knew compensation would be involved and they proceeded...

 

The media is littered with testimonies about Epstein being fed up with Lucchino's meddling. As there are accounts of signings like Crawford being negotiated by Epstein and Lucchino.

 

How much of that is true, I don't know. But there's a lot of smoke on that front.

[Mr.X]

I kinda want an answer to this question from a Boston fan...

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

 

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06

The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no?

 

Wow. No.

 

Okay so where is the fault in this? Once again...hes going to be doing the same job and the Cubs knew compensation was involved prior...is it a promotion? sure...is it going to turn out hes doing the same job? yes...this is why compensation was requested on the front end.

[XZero771679666304]

I kinda want an answer to this question from a Boston fan...

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

 

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06

The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no?

 

Wow. No.

 

Okay so where is the fault in this? Once again...hes going to be doing the same job and the Cubs knew compensation was involved prior...is it a promotion? sure...is it going to turn out hes doing the same job? yes...this is why compensation was requested on the front end.

 

 

Unless he is doing the same job IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY it doesn't constitute having the same position. It's really pretty astounding that you can't/won't recognize that fact.

 

The fact that Lucchino could, even if he doesn't, step in and overrule him on baseball ops matters makes it a lesser position by default.

Edited October 18, 2011 by XZero77

[Mr.X]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

 

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

[Guest]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

 

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

If you remove a layer between ownership and yourself, get a higher title and get a raise, you have gotten a promotion no matter what semantic arguments you want to throw out there.

[Mr.X]

I kinda want an answer to this question from a Boston fan...

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

 

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06

The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no?

 

Wow. No.

 

Okay so where is the fault in this? Once again...hes going to be doing the same job and the Cubs knew compensation was involved prior...is it a promotion? sure...is it going to turn out hes doing the same job? yes...this is why compensation was requested on the front end.

 

 

Unless he is doing the same job IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY it doesn't constitute having the same position. It's really pretty astounding that you can't/won't recognize that fact.

 

I recognized that on paper its a promotion when did I say that on paper it is not a promotion? ...I figured that you would realize the fact that hes still going to be doing the same thing though. Hes still going to be the GM as well as whatever they want him to be...but this is why compensation was asked for ahead of time.

[Hollandsworths mug]

Mr X.

 

I think JWH might be distracted these days and has his mind on his new wife. It's messing up his negotiating skills :)

 

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2009/06/30/john_henry3__1246388703_0150.jpg

 

I still haven't seen a body pic...please post that next time...and according to Henry...Luccino does his job, not him. I personally think if Cherrington was doing the work this thing would be done already...Lucky isn't the most ideal person to deal with...

 

Yea, Linda is a lovely lady. Seriously, Henry can say LL does all the negotiating but he is the final word in Boston. I do not buy LL is the man with carte blanche power.

 

http://www.boston.com/Boston/rf/image_371w/Boston/2011-2020/2011/09/06/Boston.com/ReceivedContent/Images/16070127.jpg?uuid=jWKK_tjBEeCknsDjD9f8HQ

Edited October 18, 2011 by Hollandsworth's mug

[Guest]

Isn't negotiating for player compensation itself meddling in baseball ops? Shouldn't that be Cherington if Lucchino has nothing to do with that side?

[scarey]

Once again...hes going to be doing the same job

 

But... he doesn't have a checkpoint (IE: Lucchino). If I didn't have to have my manager's approval to order myself a $4000 desk and make my own hours, that would be a promotion. Sure, I'm still doing the same job, but having unrestricted access to certain privileges and abilities makes my job different. Better. It is a promotion.

[Mr.X]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

 

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

If you remove a layer between ownership and yourself, get a higher title and get a raise, you have gotten a promotion no matter what semantic arguments you want to throw out there.

 

On paper it is...but we're all fans, come on! We all know that this is a GM position...period. The layer would be removed, I agree...Larry doesn't meddle in the Baseball Ops department since 06 so again if you put up a business org chart then sure hes a rung up. But the fact he doesn't have much to do with Larry at all as far as I know means little. The money isn't an issue...as once again the Sox could make him Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

[SouthSideRyan]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

 

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo according to Red Sox sources after Theo had agreed to a contract with the Cubs.

[XZero771679666304]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

 

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

 

This "X takes care of this and Y is allowed to take care of that" doesn't hold water. Baseball is a business, and business is contingent on legality and print on paper. This isn't about how you or I or anyone else interpret his role, it is about how that role is defined in his contract. It's black and white.

[Mr.X]

Once again...hes going to be doing the same job

 

But... he doesn't have a checkpoint (IE: Lucchino). If I didn't have to have my manager's approval to order myself a $4000 desk and make my own hours, that would be a promotion. Sure, I'm still doing the same job, but having unrestricted access to certain privileges and abilities makes my job different. Better. It is a promotion.

 

Once again not sure where the disconnect is going here...on paper its a promotion...but my contention was that the fact hes going to essentially be responsible for the same duties is the reason the Sox asked for compensation. Don't really know what the big deal is about that.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

On paper it is...but we're all fans, come on! We all know that this is a GM position...period. The layer would be removed, I agree...Larry doesn't meddle in the Baseball Ops department since 06 so again if you put up a business org chart then sure hes a rung up. But the fact he doesn't have much to do with Larry at all as far as I know means little. The money isn't an issue...as once again the Sox could make him Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

There have been no signs anywhere that the Red Sox are willing to make Theo a "co-CEO," likely because Lucchino doesn't want to cede any power.

[Mr.X]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

 

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

 

This "X takes care of this and Y is allowed to take care of that" doesn't hold water. Baseball is a business, and business is contingent on legality and print on paper. This isn't about how you or I or anyone else interpret his role, it is about how that role is defined in his contract. It's black and white.

 

As I said on paper it is a promotion...the original point was why the Sox would ask for compensation if it was promotion...then it turned into "wow this guy doesn't know what a promotion is" which is kind of stupid. The Sox are asking for compensation because its in reality the same job to them. If you don't like the price then don't pay it

[scarey]

Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

I don't get your hypothetical about the Sox naming him Co-CEO. They clearly are not doing that on top of giving him more privileges and a boost in compensation. If that were the case, then I could understand the compensation more.

 

You have a point in the fact that the Cubs new before they came to the table that there was compensation needed. Posters here merely asked why it was necessary. Arguing that it's necessary because the Cubs already knew before hand is avoiding the debate.

[brinoch]

No, you absolutely do not have to ask for Garza. It's ridiculous and the Sox know it. That's not playing hardball, it's being deliberately obtuse. That's not how professionals negotiate; it's how children negotiate.

 

I like this

 

I bet if you look at every single trade negotiation you'll see instances like this more often than not.

 

That's one way to negotiate. Another way, which I've personally found to be much more effective, is to start with an offer just on the other side of fair (for you) and acknowledge the relative values and come to an agreement both sides find reasonable. Generally, when someone negotiates in ridiculous land "just because you have to ask" I harden my stance and try and get as much as I can. My way tends to lead to better results for both sides and develops relationships. The other way leads to scorched earth.

[davearm2]

WTF does it matter if it is or isn't a promotion?

 

The Red Sox are entitled to compensation in either case.

 

If there was no promotion involved, then the Red Sox would have had a valid reason to decline the interview request. We're obviously way beyond that point.

 

Promotion/no promotion doesn't really have any bearing on the compensation issue.

[VVMattVV]

Once again...hes going to be doing the same job

 

But... he doesn't have a checkpoint (IE: Lucchino). If I didn't have to have my manager's approval to order myself a $4000 desk and make my own hours, that would be a promotion. Sure, I'm still doing the same job, but having unrestricted access to certain privileges and abilities makes my job different. Better. It is a promotion.

 

Once again not sure where the disconnect is going here...on paper its a promotion...but my contention was that the fact hes going to essentially be responsible for the same duties is the reason the Sox asked for compensation. Don't really know what the big deal is about that.

 

If it's a promotion on paper, it's a promotion.

 

I'm guessing the Red Sox asked for compensation because we're taking an employee under contract for a year and they're trying to squeeze any value out of it that they can. Not because of a weird semantic argument on what is and isn't really a promotion.

[Mr.X]

 

On paper it is...but we're all fans, come on! We all know that this is a GM position...period. The layer would be removed, I agree...Larry doesn't meddle in the Baseball Ops department since 06 so again if you put up a business org chart then sure hes a rung up. But the fact he doesn't have much to do with Larry at all as far as I know means little. The money isn't an issue...as once again the Sox could make him Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

There have been no signs anywhere that the Red Sox are willing to make Theo a "co-CEO," likely because Lucchino doesn't want to cede any power.

 

I'm just clearly throwing out there that if this falls through, they can give him a shiny new title and keep him. Its not a losing situation for either team. Just an option that is all.