Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[Hollandsworths mug]

Pretty good article out of Comcastsportsnet New England

 

http://www.csnne.com/baseball-boston-redsox/news/Sources-Epstein-announcement-several-day?blockID=578982&feedID=4020

 

Sean McAdam said: The Red Sox kicked off the negotiations by asking for pitcher Matt Garza, a request the Cubs rejected out of hand. The Cubs, one baseball person said, continue to stress to the Red Sox that compensation issues for non-uniform personnel has historically been minimal. It's the view of the Red Sox that, given the magnitude of the deal being given to Epstein and owner Tom Ricketts's desire to have Epstein run his organization's baseball operations department, that this deal defies precedent.

 

The Red Sox and Cubs, once far apart in determining what the Cubs would have to give up in order to hire away Epstein, have made progress in recent days, but have yet to come close on an agreement, a person familiar with the talks said

[XZero771679666304]

According to the boston site, Theo is NOT at the same level as Lucchino:

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

 

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that.

 

The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

 

This "X takes care of this and Y is allowed to take care of that" doesn't hold water. Baseball is a business, and business is contingent on legality and print on paper. This isn't about how you or I or anyone else interpret his role, it is about how that role is defined in his contract. It's black and white.

 

As I said on paper it is a promotion...the original point was why the Sox would ask for compensation if it was promotion...then it turned into "wow this guy doesn't know what a promotion is" which is kind of stupid. The Sox are asking for compensation because its in reality the same job to them. If you don't like the price then don't pay it

 

Well the issue is that at a business negotiation, what is on the paper is all that matters. If the Red Sox want to categorize his position in terms outside of those stated in his contract to spin a "this is a lateral move for Theo", that's just dicey as hell. I'm sure Theo doesn't consider it a lateral move. Because it isn't.

[davearm2]

Once again...hes going to be doing the same job

 

But... he doesn't have a checkpoint (IE: Lucchino). If I didn't have to have my manager's approval to order myself a $4000 desk and make my own hours, that would be a promotion. Sure, I'm still doing the same job, but having unrestricted access to certain privileges and abilities makes my job different. Better. It is a promotion.

 

Once again not sure where the disconnect is going here...on paper its a promotion...but my contention was that the fact hes going to essentially be responsible for the same duties is the reason the Sox asked for compensation. Don't really know what the big deal is about that.

 

If it's a promotion on paper, it's a promotion.

 

I'm guessing the Red Sox asked for compensation because we're taking an employee under contract for a year and they're trying to squeeze any value out of it that they can. Not because of a weird semantic argument on what is and isn't really a promotion.

This.

 

Ultimately the Red Sox don't give a rip what Theo will or won't be doing for the Cubs. He's their employee, and they want something out of it if they're going to relinquish him to the Cubs.

[Mr.X]

Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

I don't get your hypothetical about the Sox naming him Co-CEO. They clearly are not doing that on top of giving him more privileges and a boost in compensation. If that were the case, then I could understand the compensation more.

 

You have a point in the fact that the Cubs new before they came to the table that there was compensation needed. Posters here merely asked why it was necessary. Arguing that it's necessary because the Cubs already knew before hand is avoiding the debate.

 

Two things

1) I don't think I've avoided any debated tonight haha

 

2) You never know what type of spin will come out of this...no one thought there was any way in hell LL ceded Baseball Ops control to Theo before he made a stand and left.

 

As for why LL is negotiating and Cherrington isn't? I believe they feel that Theo earned that clout...now LL can come back to a seat at the table with the Ops group...which scares me as a fan.

[scarey]

Personally, I think a package along the lines of Welington Castillo and Jeff Beliveau would be pretty fair. I would hate to lose Beliveau, but I think it would be fair. I'd try to sneak Rhoderick in there instead.

 

McNutt wouldn't be outrageous either, but I think the Red Sox are the winners if that's what ends up happening.

[Guest]

They were 4th and 8th in the Marlins system before hand...all three had down years...McNutt ran the risk of being a one year wonder after coming out of nowhere as a late round guy. Look I'm not trying to diminish what McNutt has done, that's not what this is about as I feel like I've been very rational about both sides, however that's not to say that everyone will agree with my points. There's die hard fans on both sides...Some cubs fans believe that 3.5 million is all they should pay...take it or leave it no prospects...nothing. Then you have Sox fans who believe that the Cubs should give them Jackson and then some...so again its all about finding that middle ground.

 

4th and 8th in the Marlins system with a down year does not equal McNutt having a down year.

 

All 3 had a down year last year. BA ranked McNutt #48, the 2 Marlins prospects didn't crack the top 100. What I said about valuing McNutt over both ex-Marlins prospects is not outlandish.

 

Also, McNutt might have been a late round guy but the Twins nearly took him in the 8th round if they had been able to come to an agreement on his overslot bonus.

 

ETA: To clarify, I'm agreeing with Matt here.

[Hollandsworths mug]

http://www.sportbikes.net/forums/attachments/general-sportbikes/143003d1195931215-engine-oil-window-indication-how-much-fill-delivers.jpg

[scarey]

Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

I don't get your hypothetical about the Sox naming him Co-CEO. They clearly are not doing that on top of giving him more privileges and a boost in compensation. If that were the case, then I could understand the compensation more.

 

You have a point in the fact that the Cubs new before they came to the table that there was compensation needed. Posters here merely asked why it was necessary. Arguing that it's necessary because the Cubs already knew before hand is avoiding the debate.

 

Two things

1) I don't think I've avoided any debated tonight haha

 

2) You never know what type of spin will come out of this...no one thought there was any way in hell LL ceded Baseball Ops control to Theo before he made a stand and left.

 

As for why LL is negotiating and Cherrington isn't? I believe they feel that Theo earned that clout...now LL can come back to a seat at the table with the Ops group...which scares me as a fan.

 

I wasn't implying that you're bailing out on a discussion or anything. I only meant that you're missing the point of taking part in the debate. Sorry if I wasn't clear there.

[XZero771679666304]

 

On paper it is...but we're all fans, come on! We all know that this is a GM position...period. The layer would be removed, I agree...Larry doesn't meddle in the Baseball Ops department since 06 so again if you put up a business org chart then sure hes a rung up. But the fact he doesn't have much to do with Larry at all as far as I know means little. The money isn't an issue...as once again the Sox could make him Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

There have been no signs anywhere that the Red Sox are willing to make Theo a "co-CEO," likely because Lucchino doesn't want to cede any power.

 

I'm just clearly throwing out there that if this falls through, they can give him a shiny new title and keep him. Its not a losing situation for either team. Just an option that is all.

 

If they wanted to appease Theo with such a position they would have already. I doubt Lucchino would stand for it even if Henry wanted to promote him, which he's shown no sign of thus far. If Theo were amenable to staying and Henry really wanted to keep him badly enough to contrive a position, things wouldn't be at this point.

 

The chances of Theo staying in Boston beyond this offseason aren't zero, but they're close.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

On paper it is...but we're all fans, come on! We all know that this is a GM position...period. The layer would be removed, I agree...Larry doesn't meddle in the Baseball Ops department since 06 so again if you put up a business org chart then sure hes a rung up. But the fact he doesn't have much to do with Larry at all as far as I know means little. The money isn't an issue...as once again the Sox could make him Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

There have been no signs anywhere that the Red Sox are willing to make Theo a "co-CEO," likely because Lucchino doesn't want to cede any power.

 

I'm just clearly throwing out there that if this falls through, they can give him a shiny new title and keep him. Its not a losing situation for either team. Just an option that is all.

 

My point is, the Red Sox don't want to make him co-CEO, so it's not an option.

[Mr.X]

Personally, I think a package along the lines of Welington Castillo and Jeff Beliveau would be pretty fair. I would hate to lose Beliveau, but I think it would be fair. I'd try to sneak Rhoderick in there instead.

 

McNutt wouldn't be outrageous either, but I think the Red Sox are the winners if that's what ends up happening.

 

That wouldn't be a bad package either...I think people are neglecting to read my original post, in which I stated my points. In that I also mentioned that I wasn't delusional enough to expect this team is getting an all-star for Epstein, at best case someone that sneaks into an all-star game or two. I'm not sitting here saying hey "lets screw the cubs for top prospects", I think I'm throwing out fair things personally, if it gets twisted then its all good. Either way its always fun to come to another fans board and see how someone else feels about the same issue.

[Guest]

 

I believe those rankings aren't updated...if he is #48 at the beginning of 2012...I will personally come on here and agree with every single one of your posts from here on out! :hello: He was not in Archers class, and Hendry didn't do a good job in giving him up over Garza. Hes one of those prospects that everyone has different opinions on...I'm obviously low on him, and would be fine if the Sox ended up with Calderino and another prospect from the Dominican that has a high ceiling instead of McNutt.

 

Of course Archer's stature took a dive this year as well, and I don't believe he has injuries to fall back on.

 

Oh and stay the [expletive] away from my Jeimer

 

He's my Jeimer, jerk.

[scarey]

Either way its always fun to come to another fans board and see how someone else feels about the same issue.

 

Agreed. Don't confuse the hand wringing for disgust. I think a lot of people are enjoying this thread.

[Mr.X]

 

On paper it is...but we're all fans, come on! We all know that this is a GM position...period. The layer would be removed, I agree...Larry doesn't meddle in the Baseball Ops department since 06 so again if you put up a business org chart then sure hes a rung up. But the fact he doesn't have much to do with Larry at all as far as I know means little. The money isn't an issue...as once again the Sox could make him Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

There have been no signs anywhere that the Red Sox are willing to make Theo a "co-CEO," likely because Lucchino doesn't want to cede any power.

 

I'm just clearly throwing out there that if this falls through, they can give him a shiny new title and keep him. Its not a losing situation for either team. Just an option that is all.

 

If they wanted to appease Theo with such a position they would have already. I doubt Lucchino would stand for it even if Henry wanted to promote him, which he's shown no sign of thus far. If Theo were amenable to staying and Henry really wanted to keep him badly enough to contrive a position, things wouldn't be at this point.

 

The chances of Theo staying in Boston beyond this offseason aren't zero, but they're close.

 

Honestly...I think hes just tired of Boston. Maybe some of these things don't really have to have a ton of rhyme or reason...but some people just want to move on and experience different places. If he wins in Chicago he goes into Cooperstown as quite possibly the quickest out of any GM in history.

[davearm2]

Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

I don't get your hypothetical about the Sox naming him Co-CEO. They clearly are not doing that on top of giving him more privileges and a boost in compensation. If that were the case, then I could understand the compensation more.

 

You have a point in the fact that the Cubs new before they came to the table that there was compensation needed. Posters here merely asked why it was necessary. Arguing that it's necessary because the Cubs already knew before hand is avoiding the debate.

Compensation is necessary because the Red Sox will be releasing a valuable, high-ranking member of their organization that they have under contract.

 

In the end it doesn't really matter if the Cubs want him to run the place or wash cars in the players' lot. In either case the Red Sox are losing his services, and that's what requires compensation.

[Vanilla Ice]

Attempting to shift the conversation a little bit, if the negotiations with the Red Sox do break down, who would you want to go after next? I would assume Beane, Cashman, and Friedman are out at this point.

 

I personally don't get all the love for Hahn. What has he really done to deserve it? My thinking is that Cherington wouldn't be available, either.

 

I think I'd put Coppolella at the very top of my list, after Epstein. Has worked for two top organizations (Braves, Yankees) in both scouting and statistical system development.

[Mr.X]

They were 4th and 8th in the Marlins system before hand...all three had down years...McNutt ran the risk of being a one year wonder after coming out of nowhere as a late round guy. Look I'm not trying to diminish what McNutt has done, that's not what this is about as I feel like I've been very rational about both sides, however that's not to say that everyone will agree with my points. There's die hard fans on both sides...Some cubs fans believe that 3.5 million is all they should pay...take it or leave it no prospects...nothing. Then you have Sox fans who believe that the Cubs should give them Jackson and then some...so again its all about finding that middle ground.

 

4th and 8th in the Marlins system with a down year does not equal McNutt having a down year.

 

All 3 had a down year last year. BA ranked McNutt #48, the 2 Marlins prospects didn't crack the top 100. What I said about valuing McNutt over both ex-Marlins prospects is not outlandish.

 

Also, McNutt might have been a late round guy but the Twins nearly took him in the 8th round if they had been able to come to an agreement on his overslot bonus.

 

This is true...I was going to write (this is my mistake too for being lazy but its almost 12:30 here) that making a projection on a player due to his draft slot is a terrible way to look at a prospect. I'm just not a fan of him, I won't be upset if he puts on the laundry but I think its still good compensation for Epstein.

[chuckywang]

Mr X.

 

I think JWH might be distracted these days and has his mind on his new wife. It's messing up his negotiating skills :)

 

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2009/06/30/john_henry3__1246388703_0150.jpg

 

I still haven't seen a body pic...please post that next time...and according to Henry...Luccino does his job, not him. I personally think if Cherrington was doing the work this thing would be done already...Lucky isn't the most ideal person to deal with...

 

Yea, Linda is a lovely lady. Seriously, Henry can say LL does all the negotiating but he is the final word in Boston. I do not buy LL is the man with carte blanche power.

 

http://www.boston.com/Boston/rf/image_371w/Boston/2011-2020/2011/09/06/Boston.com/ReceivedContent/Images/16070127.jpg?uuid=jWKK_tjBEeCknsDjD9f8HQ

 

She had absolutely no chance:

http://deadspin.com/5233090/red-soxowner-john-henry-lets-boston-magazine-print-his-lovelorn-emails-to-his-young-bride

[Guest]

They were 4th and 8th in the Marlins system before hand...all three had down years...McNutt ran the risk of being a one year wonder after coming out of nowhere as a late round guy. Look I'm not trying to diminish what McNutt has done, that's not what this is about as I feel like I've been very rational about both sides, however that's not to say that everyone will agree with my points. There's die hard fans on both sides...Some cubs fans believe that 3.5 million is all they should pay...take it or leave it no prospects...nothing. Then you have Sox fans who believe that the Cubs should give them Jackson and then some...so again its all about finding that middle ground.

 

4th and 8th in the Marlins system with a down year does not equal McNutt having a down year.

 

All 3 had a down year last year. BA ranked McNutt #48, the 2 Marlins prospects didn't crack the top 100. What I said about valuing McNutt over both ex-Marlins prospects is not outlandish.

 

Also, McNutt might have been a late round guy but the Twins nearly took him in the 8th round if they had been able to come to an agreement on his overslot bonus.

 

This is true...I was going to write (this is my mistake too for being lazy but its almost 12:30 here) that making a projection on a player due to his draft slot is a terrible way to look at a prospect. I'm just not a fan of him, I won't be upset if he puts on the laundry but I think its still good compensation for Epstein.

 

Why aren't you a fan of him?

[scarey]

Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

I don't get your hypothetical about the Sox naming him Co-CEO. They clearly are not doing that on top of giving him more privileges and a boost in compensation. If that were the case, then I could understand the compensation more.

 

You have a point in the fact that the Cubs new before they came to the table that there was compensation needed. Posters here merely asked why it was necessary. Arguing that it's necessary because the Cubs already knew before hand is avoiding the debate.

Compensation is necessary because the Red Sox will be releasing a valuable, high-ranking member of their organization that they have under contract.

 

In the end it doesn't really matter if the Cubs want him to run the place or wash cars in the players' lot. In either case the Red Sox are losing his services, and that's what requires compensation.

 

I personally don't know the ins-and-outs of contract negotiations, especially ones to this degree. However, if the Sox cause considerable monetary loss (not to mention stalling career path growth) to an employee because they deny that employee from taking a job with the Cubs, I think that employee has litigation rights to help himself to that lost compensation. I may be wrong on that though.

[davearm2]

Attempting to shift the conversation a little bit, if the negotiations with the Red Sox do break down, who would you want to go after next? I would assume Beane, Cashman, and Friedman are out at this point.

 

I personally don't get all the love for Hahn. What has he really done to deserve it? My thinking is that Cherington wouldn't be available, either.

 

I think I'd put Coppolella at the very top of my list, after Epstein. Has worked for two top organizations (Braves, Yankees) in both scouting and statistical system development.

Someone mentioned Thad Levine of the Rangers. Might be a name to keep an eye on.

[XZero771679666304]

Attempting to shift the conversation a little bit, if the negotiations with the Red Sox do break down, who would you want to go after next? I would assume Beane, Cashman, and Friedman are out at this point.

 

I personally don't get all the love for Hahn. What has he really done to deserve it? My thinking is that Cherington wouldn't be available, either.

 

I think I'd put Coppolella at the very top of my list, after Epstein. Has worked for two top organizations (Braves, Yankees) in both scouting and statistical system development.

 

 

I'm not sure Friedman is completely out and he's been my top choice all along.

 

I just think Epstein and Friedman are on a different tier than Hahn, Coppolella, etc. Not worlds better, but better enough to sacrifice a little extra for.

Edited October 18, 2011 by XZero77

[Vanilla Ice]

Attempting to shift the conversation a little bit, if the negotiations with the Red Sox do break down, who would you want to go after next? I would assume Beane, Cashman, and Friedman are out at this point.

 

I personally don't get all the love for Hahn. What has he really done to deserve it? My thinking is that Cherington wouldn't be available, either.

 

I think I'd put Coppolella at the very top of my list, after Epstein. Has worked for two top organizations (Braves, Yankees) in both scouting and statistical system development.

 

 

I'm not sure Friedman is completely out and he's been my top choice all along.

 

I just think Epstein and Friedman are on a different tier than Hahn, Coppolella, etc. Not worlds better, but better enough so sacrifice a little extra for.

 

I agree, but I'd love to see some discussion on these second tier candidates because it seems like they always get lumped together.

[Mr.X]

Attempting to shift the conversation a little bit, if the negotiations with the Red Sox do break down, who would you want to go after next? I would assume Beane, Cashman, and Friedman are out at this point.

 

I personally don't get all the love for Hahn. What has he really done to deserve it? My thinking is that Cherington wouldn't be available, either.

 

I think I'd put Coppolella at the very top of my list, after Epstein. Has worked for two top organizations (Braves, Yankees) in both scouting and statistical system development.

Someone mentioned Thad Levine of the Rangers. Might be a name to keep an eye on.

 

Ironically, that was the outcome of my original post

[davearm2]

Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

 

I don't get your hypothetical about the Sox naming him Co-CEO. They clearly are not doing that on top of giving him more privileges and a boost in compensation. If that were the case, then I could understand the compensation more.

 

You have a point in the fact that the Cubs new before they came to the table that there was compensation needed. Posters here merely asked why it was necessary. Arguing that it's necessary because the Cubs already knew before hand is avoiding the debate.

Compensation is necessary because the Red Sox will be releasing a valuable, high-ranking member of their organization that they have under contract.

 

In the end it doesn't really matter if the Cubs want him to run the place or wash cars in the players' lot. In either case the Red Sox are losing his services, and that's what requires compensation.

 

I personally don't know the ins-and-outs of contract negotiations, especially ones to this degree. However, if the Sox cause considerable monetary loss (not to mention stalling career path growth) to an employee because they deny that employee from taking a job with the Cubs, I think that employee has litigation rights to help himself to that lost compensation. I may be wrong on that though.

Of course you're wrong. Epstein signed a contract with the Red Sox to be their GM. He can't turn around and sue them for asking him to honor that contract.