Mr.X

you came onto a message board of fans who root for the organization who sent off Lou Brock to the st louis [expletive] cardinals wanting to talk trade about the negotiations for the best gm in the mlb and you thought you would avoid a debate? it didnt even occur differently to you? Why else would I come here? ...okay this is the last one...I'll pop in again good luck

If the Red Sox get anything more than a mediocre A-ball pitcher, they should be happy. Minor leaguers are valued way more now than they were valued in 1994. Agreed...I'm going to bed, I'll pop in again, thanks for having me tonight.

If the Red Sox get anything more than a mediocre A-ball pitcher, they should be happy. It will be more than a mediocre A-Ball pitcher...I think that has been established already.

4th and 8th in the Marlins system with a down year does not equal McNutt having a down year. All 3 had a down year last year. BA ranked McNutt #48, the 2 Marlins prospects didn't crack the top 100. What I said about valuing McNutt over both ex-Marlins prospects is not outlandish. Also, McNutt might have been a late round guy but the Twins nearly took him in the 8th round if they had been able to come to an agreement on his overslot bonus. This is true...I was going to write (this is my mistake too for being lazy but its almost 12:30 here) that making a projection on a player due to his draft slot is a terrible way to look at a prospect. I'm just not a fan of him, I won't be upset if he puts on the laundry but I think its still good compensation for Epstein. Why aren't you a fan of him? I mean the blister issues don't really scare me too much although with Beckett I've seen that it could be a pain in the ass too...I think also I'm weary of him because he hasn't pitched in the higher rungs yet, I could be dead wrong on the guy, the numbers declined last year but there is always a chance on a bounce back....I'll never root against anyone though.

Someone mentioned Thad Levine of the Rangers. Might be a name to keep an eye on. Ironically, that was the outcome of my original post

4th and 8th in the Marlins system with a down year does not equal McNutt having a down year. All 3 had a down year last year. BA ranked McNutt #48, the 2 Marlins prospects didn't crack the top 100. What I said about valuing McNutt over both ex-Marlins prospects is not outlandish. Also, McNutt might have been a late round guy but the Twins nearly took him in the 8th round if they had been able to come to an agreement on his overslot bonus. This is true...I was going to write (this is my mistake too for being lazy but its almost 12:30 here) that making a projection on a player due to his draft slot is a terrible way to look at a prospect. I'm just not a fan of him, I won't be upset if he puts on the laundry but I think its still good compensation for Epstein.

There have been no signs anywhere that the Red Sox are willing to make Theo a "co-CEO," likely because Lucchino doesn't want to cede any power. I'm just clearly throwing out there that if this falls through, they can give him a shiny new title and keep him. Its not a losing situation for either team. Just an option that is all. If they wanted to appease Theo with such a position they would have already. I doubt Lucchino would stand for it even if Henry wanted to promote him, which he's shown no sign of thus far. If Theo were amenable to staying and Henry really wanted to keep him badly enough to contrive a position, things wouldn't be at this point. The chances of Theo staying in Boston beyond this offseason aren't zero, but they're close. Honestly...I think hes just tired of Boston. Maybe some of these things don't really have to have a ton of rhyme or reason...but some people just want to move on and experience different places. If he wins in Chicago he goes into Cooperstown as quite possibly the quickest out of any GM in history.

That wouldn't be a bad package either...I think people are neglecting to read my original post, in which I stated my points. In that I also mentioned that I wasn't delusional enough to expect this team is getting an all-star for Epstein, at best case someone that sneaks into an all-star game or two. I'm not sitting here saying hey "lets screw the cubs for top prospects", I think I'm throwing out fair things personally, if it gets twisted then its all good. Either way its always fun to come to another fans board and see how someone else feels about the same issue.

I don't get your hypothetical about the Sox naming him Co-CEO. They clearly are not doing that on top of giving him more privileges and a boost in compensation. If that were the case, then I could understand the compensation more. You have a point in the fact that the Cubs new before they came to the table that there was compensation needed. Posters here merely asked why it was necessary. Arguing that it's necessary because the Cubs already knew before hand is avoiding the debate. Two things 1) I don't think I've avoided any debated tonight haha 2) You never know what type of spin will come out of this...no one thought there was any way in hell LL ceded Baseball Ops control to Theo before he made a stand and left. As for why LL is negotiating and Cherrington isn't? I believe they feel that Theo earned that clout...now LL can come back to a seat at the table with the Ops group...which scares me as a fan.

There have been no signs anywhere that the Red Sox are willing to make Theo a "co-CEO," likely because Lucchino doesn't want to cede any power. I'm just clearly throwing out there that if this falls through, they can give him a shiny new title and keep him. Its not a losing situation for either team. Just an option that is all.

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that. The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated. This "X takes care of this and Y is allowed to take care of that" doesn't hold water. Baseball is a business, and business is contingent on legality and print on paper. This isn't about how you or I or anyone else interpret his role, it is about how that role is defined in his contract. It's black and white. As I said on paper it is a promotion...the original point was why the Sox would ask for compensation if it was promotion...then it turned into "wow this guy doesn't know what a promotion is" which is kind of stupid. The Sox are asking for compensation because its in reality the same job to them. If you don't like the price then don't pay it

But... he doesn't have a checkpoint (IE: Lucchino). If I didn't have to have my manager's approval to order myself a $4000 desk and make my own hours, that would be a promotion. Sure, I'm still doing the same job, but having unrestricted access to certain privileges and abilities makes my job different. Better. It is a promotion. Once again not sure where the disconnect is going here...on paper its a promotion...but my contention was that the fact hes going to essentially be responsible for the same duties is the reason the Sox asked for compensation. Don't really know what the big deal is about that.

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that. The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated. If you remove a layer between ownership and yourself, get a higher title and get a raise, you have gotten a promotion no matter what semantic arguments you want to throw out there. On paper it is...but we're all fans, come on! We all know that this is a GM position...period. The layer would be removed, I agree...Larry doesn't meddle in the Baseball Ops department since 06 so again if you put up a business org chart then sure hes a rung up. But the fact he doesn't have much to do with Larry at all as far as I know means little. The money isn't an issue...as once again the Sox could make him Co-CEO tomorrow and nip this in the butt if they wanted to. Can't believe after 3 hours I still have to argue my main point, we go from McNutt to this...

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06 The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no? Wow. No. Okay so where is the fault in this? Once again...hes going to be doing the same job and the Cubs knew compensation was involved prior...is it a promotion? sure...is it going to turn out hes doing the same job? yes...this is why compensation was requested on the front end. Unless he is doing the same job IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY it doesn't constitute having the same position. It's really pretty astounding that you can't/won't recognize that fact. I recognized that on paper its a promotion when did I say that on paper it is not a promotion? ...I figured that you would realize the fact that hes still going to be doing the same thing though. Hes still going to be the GM as well as whatever they want him to be...but this is why compensation was asked for ahead of time.

He isn't, Lucchino however is now more on the business side...Theo takes care of baseball ops. If you put a food chain up...Lucchino is higher as JWH mentioned on an interview recently he runs the Sox. Now if Theo takes on a business role with the Cubs then that is absolutely 100% a promotion no matter how you shake it...but depending on who you ask he doesn't want anything to do with that. The Crawford signing was all Theo apparently...There has been talk that Crawford and A-Gon were acquired for ratings purposes however this is unsubstantiated.

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06 The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no? Wow. No. Okay so where is the fault in this? Once again...hes going to be doing the same job and the Cubs knew compensation was involved prior...is it a promotion? sure...is it going to turn out hes doing the same job? yes...this is why compensation was requested on the front end.

I still haven't seen a body pic...please post that next time...and according to Henry...Luccino does his job, not him. I personally think if Cherrington was doing the work this thing would be done already...Lucky isn't the most ideal person to deal with...

The paper is all that matters. If this was to go before a mediator that argument would be dismissed out of hand. And it has been made fairly clear that Lucchino has meddled in baseball ops throughout, so let's not pretend Theo is reporting only to Henry, as he would only be reporting to Ricketts, in actuality and contractually. Trying to spin this into a lateral move is laughable. Since 2006 when has Lucchino clearly meddled in Baseball ops...this is my issue with what you're presenting right now. I haven't seen evidence of this, and believe me I'd love to hear how it was him and not Theo that signed Lackey...since I can't stand the guy...but really? Yes its a promotion on paper but we all know that hes going to be doing the same thing. Bottom line...Cubs knew compensation would be involved and they proceeded...

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06 The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no? He would get a big raise regardless...Cashman has had the same position since 96, yet he doesn't have to report to the Tampa Faction anymore and this is similar to what happened already with Theo and Larry. Depending on who you ask its either improved their working relationship greatly or has not at all..

You must think very highly of the Cubs' farm system if you see a top 50 prospect who could be major league ready by next season as a mid-level prospect. You must think highly of the Cubs system if you consider him top 50. He had a step back, hes not top 50 until he proves something at the higher levels. Blisters are a concern, but I'm just not a fan...now that's me personally...my opinion is like all of yours it means nothing in the basis of these talks. It all depends on how these teams view the Cubs farm system. BA had him at 48 this year. I'm sure he'll drop out of the top 50 after struggling with injuries this year, but even if you amend my statement, it still holds true. You must think highly of the Cubs' system if you consider a top 100 prospect who could be major league ready next year as a mid-level prospect. When I think of a mid-level prospect, I don't think of a guy who has a very good shot at making the majors in some capacity. Im a big McNutt fan but I highly doubt he is major league ready next season. I think all in all giving up McNutt if push came to shove is something the Cubs should do. If you think about it he is now the 4th step down in negotiations supposedly. First it was Garza/Castro, we all knew that wasnt going to happen, 2nd was Bjax and justifiably so the Cubs turned that down, then there was talk of Sczur, and now the talk seems to have shifted to McNutt, would I like to get out of this without giving up McNutt.. absolutely. But, IMO at this point if the Cubs giveup McNutt for Epstein, they have won the war. On the flip side, if Epstein builds a title contender and brings one home to Wrigley then the Cubs in reality win the war...either way the Cubs will get more value in Epstein if this happens than the Sox will in McNutt or whomever they get for compensation, bottom line. The reason why? Because Theo will control the whole minor leagues from top to bottom and has a knack of knowing who to keep and who to deal for major league help. The only two to bite him in the ass was Murphy and Masterson...(Hanley was Lucchino...and hell it brought us a title)

1) This isn't an issue...Lucchino handles the business side of the house, that was a condition for Theo to come back in 06 2) If I tell a Janitor that hes now "Master of the Custodial Arts (God I love Halfbaked)" then that is more than just a Janitor...no? 3) He can get that if he stays in Boston You're really out in left field on this point. The title and official power means everything. That he performs duties beyond that of his job description is irrelevant, legally speaking. So is what he could get from Boston in the future, which is entirely hypothetical until he actually does. As it stands now, the Cubs job is absolutely a promotion. Sure the description is relevant though, its a promotion on paper but in reality hes going to be doing the same job, hence is why the Sox asked for compensation before granting permission.

You must think very highly of the Cubs' farm system if you see a top 50 prospect who could be major league ready by next season as a mid-level prospect. You must think highly of the Cubs system if you consider him top 50. He had a step back, hes not top 50 until he proves something at the higher levels. Blisters are a concern, but I'm just not a fan...now that's me personally...my opinion is like all of yours it means nothing in the basis of these talks. It all depends on how these teams view the Cubs farm system. BA had him at 48 this year. I'm sure he'll drop out of the top 50 after struggling with injuries this year, but even if you amend my statement, it still holds true. You must think highly of the Cubs' system if you consider a top 100 prospect who could be major league ready next year as a mid-level prospect. When I think of a mid-level prospect, I don't think of a guy who has a very good shot at making the majors in some capacity. The relevant part of this is that it was brought up in comparison to the prospects given up by Florida. Neither guy was a top 100 prospect before the down year. McNutt was a top 50 guy before his down year. It's not comparable compensation. At all. They were 4th and 8th in the Marlins system before hand...all three had down years...McNutt ran the risk of being a one year wonder after coming out of nowhere as a late round guy. Look I'm not trying to diminish what McNutt has done, that's not what this is about as I feel like I've been very rational about both sides, however that's not to say that everyone will agree with my points. There's die hard fans on both sides...Some cubs fans believe that 3.5 million is all they should pay...take it or leave it no prospects...nothing. Then you have Sox fans who believe that the Cubs should give them Jackson and then some...so again its all about finding that middle ground.

McNutt was a top 50 prospect according to BA. The Marlins prospects didn't crack the top 100. They were close to that, the issue I had was with the combined remark...never did I say McNutt wasn't more valuable than either one. Even if they were number 101 and 102, the number 48 prospect in all of baseball is more valuable than both combined. That may be just my own personal opinion, but I have a feeling you share that opinion as well. There's something to be said about the fact that McNutt struggled this year, but I think most are able to overlook the up and down season due to the fact that he struggled with injuries. I know I am, and I know most major publications agree with me. I'm not disputing your point and he does have the best ability out of the three to rebound...but we are talking about the here and now...this industry is a lot of "what have you done for me lately" the fact is that someone who hasn't had a lot of experience will have less rope, than say a guy like Vitters who was highly touted and a former 1st rounder.

1) This isn't an issue...Lucchino handles the business side of the house, that was a condition for Theo to come back in 06 2) If I tell a Janitor that hes now "Master of the Custodial Arts (God I love Halfbaked)" then that is more than just a Janitor...no? 3) He can get that if he stays in Boston

That is ridiculous and just about as bad as the PR job that the Sox have been trying to do throughout the process. It really appears to be a bi-polar organization. One moment they trash Theo, the next moment they love him, they can't wait to get rid of him, they would love for him to stay. The sad part is that almost all of the early leaks were from Sox and have really backed them into a corner at this point. Theo clearly wants to leave, and management clearly wants him gone. Everything else is just fiction. I don't think any rational person believes that the Cubs will give up more than a few mid-level prospects to get him. Also, I think Sox fans clearly overestimate the impact of this deal falling through. Most of the Theo to the Cubs hype is from the more than casual fan. If you don't believe me, read the stories all over Chicago about how surprised the beat writers are that fans are not as excited about Theo coming as they expected them to be. The biggest story this offseason for the Cubs, is that they actually have an owner that "gets it". No more old cliches, but an owner that sees the significance of numbers and statistics. Even if the Cubs don't get Theo, they are going to get a GM in the same mold and for that they will be much better off. And McNutt is mid level...so we're back to square one again. I wouldn't say management clearly wants him gone at all, this is the same guy that Henry pretty much begged to come back once before, I haven't heard one report that has mentioned this. Just because you give someone permission to leave, doesn't mean you absolutely want them to leave. I do think the Cubs are in good hands and the fan base deserves that. What is your definition of mid-level? According to the BA rankings, McNutt is the Cubs #2 prospect (with Archer being gone) and is #48 among all prospects. How is that mid-level? Wellington Castillo is mid-level, McNutt is top 50. It appears, again based on BA's rankings, that if McNutt didn't immediately jump in as your top prospect, he'd be easily in the top 3. That's not a mid-level prospect. Now, that's not saying I'd be completely against giving him up. If the Red Sox were to let Theo bring some people with him, then McNutt would be fine compensation, though maybe a little high. But if we're talking Theo only, as I said earlier, McNutt is a good place to start negotiations, while expecting to settle for less than that. I believe those rankings aren't updated...if he is #48 at the beginning of 2012...I will personally come on here and agree with every single one of your posts from here on out! :hello: He was not in Archers class, and Hendry didn't do a good job in giving him up over Garza. Hes one of those prospects that everyone has different opinions on...I'm obviously low on him, and would be fine if the Sox ended up with Calderino and another prospect from the Dominican that has a high ceiling instead of McNutt.