Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[Mr.X]

I'm still hung up on this: Even if I perform the same duties at a new company, but:

 

1) remove one layer between myself and ownership

2) get a bigger title

3) get a significant pay raise...

 

Then I've gotten a promotion.

 

1) This isn't an issue...Lucchino handles the business side of the house, that was a condition for Theo to come back in 06

2) If I tell a Janitor that hes now "Master of the Custodial Arts (God I love Halfbaked)" then that is more than just a Janitor...no?

3) He can get that if he stays in Boston

[Guest]

And McNutt is mid level...so we're back to square one again.

 

You must think very highly of the Cubs' farm system if you see a top 50 prospect who could be major league ready by next season as a mid-level prospect.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs system if you consider him top 50. He had a step back, hes not top 50 until he proves something at the higher levels. Blisters are a concern, but I'm just not a fan...now that's me personally...my opinion is like all of yours it means nothing in the basis of these talks. It all depends on how these teams view the Cubs farm system.

 

BA had him at 48 this year. I'm sure he'll drop out of the top 50 after struggling with injuries this year, but even if you amend my statement, it still holds true.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs' system if you consider a top 100 prospect who could be major league ready next year as a mid-level prospect. When I think of a mid-level prospect, I don't think of a guy who has a very good shot at making the majors in some capacity.

The relevant part of this is that it was brought up in comparison to the prospects given up by Florida. Neither guy was a top 100 prospect before the down year. McNutt was a top 50 guy before his down year.

 

It's not comparable compensation. At all.

[Mr.X]

 

I would disagree with this as both guys were pretty well thought of before a setback this year, McNutt had a similar set back this year as well. If he had progressed then I would absolutely be in agreement with you. Like I said I'm not hoping for the guy by any means, however McNutt would be proper compensation. I don't know how you can say that both guys are less valuable than McNutt after all 3 didn't really do that well this year. Kind of a bold statement, no?

 

McNutt was a top 50 prospect according to BA. The Marlins prospects didn't crack the top 100.

 

They were close to that, the issue I had was with the combined remark...never did I say McNutt wasn't more valuable than either one.

 

Even if they were number 101 and 102, the number 48 prospect in all of baseball is more valuable than both combined. That may be just my own personal opinion, but I have a feeling you share that opinion as well. There's something to be said about the fact that McNutt struggled this year, but I think most are able to overlook the up and down season due to the fact that he struggled with injuries. I know I am, and I know most major publications agree with me.

 

I'm not disputing your point and he does have the best ability out of the three to rebound...but we are talking about the here and now...this industry is a lot of "what have you done for me lately" the fact is that someone who hasn't had a lot of experience will have less rope, than say a guy like Vitters who was highly touted and a former 1st rounder.

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

Well I was coming off an internship where I was doing a lot of things and I was committed to getting a job in the industry. I had interviews with a few teams, but I was in a relationship in which at the time I couldn't leave Boston. I personally would have went anywhere and I wanted to get into player development, I talked with Steve Phillips about it for a few and he told me to head on down to scout school...never materialized though unfortunately. I'm still fairly young so who knows :) ... all I know is that this Theo debate and the last few weeks of the Sox sad sack season has gotten me back into things. Buster Olney and Peter Gammons are two of the nicest people I've ever met.

You're fairly young, were trying to get into the lower levels of baseball...but you negotiate major contracts every day?

 

Can I ask what the heck you do?

 

Ben Cherington

[Guest]

I'm still hung up on this: Even if I perform the same duties at a new company, but:

 

1) remove one layer between myself and ownership

2) get a bigger title

3) get a significant pay raise...

 

Then I've gotten a promotion.

 

1) This isn't an issue...Lucchino handles the business side of the house, that was a condition for Theo to come back in 06

2) If I tell a Janitor that hes now "Master of the Custodial Arts (God I love Halfbaked)" then that is more than just a Janitor...no?

3) He can get that if he stays in Boston

1) He still reports to Lucchino, even if just in name

2) This isn't a "master of the universe" title change we're talking about, please don't be ridiculous or it isn't worth the time

3) It's still a raise from his current status, which is all that matters

 

-------------------

 

Let's put this another way

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

[Hollandsworths mug]

Mr X.

 

I think JWH might be distracted these days and has his mind on his new wife. It's messing up his negotiating skills :)

 

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2009/06/30/john_henry3__1246388703_0150.jpg

[Mr.X]

And McNutt is mid level...so we're back to square one again.

 

You must think very highly of the Cubs' farm system if you see a top 50 prospect who could be major league ready by next season as a mid-level prospect.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs system if you consider him top 50. He had a step back, hes not top 50 until he proves something at the higher levels. Blisters are a concern, but I'm just not a fan...now that's me personally...my opinion is like all of yours it means nothing in the basis of these talks. It all depends on how these teams view the Cubs farm system.

 

BA had him at 48 this year. I'm sure he'll drop out of the top 50 after struggling with injuries this year, but even if you amend my statement, it still holds true.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs' system if you consider a top 100 prospect who could be major league ready next year as a mid-level prospect. When I think of a mid-level prospect, I don't think of a guy who has a very good shot at making the majors in some capacity.

The relevant part of this is that it was brought up in comparison to the prospects given up by Florida. Neither guy was a top 100 prospect before the down year. McNutt was a top 50 guy before his down year.

 

It's not comparable compensation. At all.

 

They were 4th and 8th in the Marlins system before hand...all three had down years...McNutt ran the risk of being a one year wonder after coming out of nowhere as a late round guy. Look I'm not trying to diminish what McNutt has done, that's not what this is about as I feel like I've been very rational about both sides, however that's not to say that everyone will agree with my points. There's die hard fans on both sides...Some cubs fans believe that 3.5 million is all they should pay...take it or leave it no prospects...nothing. Then you have Sox fans who believe that the Cubs should give them Jackson and then some...so again its all about finding that middle ground.

[XZero771679666304]

I'm still hung up on this: Even if I perform the same duties at a new company, but:

 

1) remove one layer between myself and ownership

2) get a bigger title

3) get a significant pay raise...

 

Then I've gotten a promotion.

 

1) This isn't an issue...Lucchino handles the business side of the house, that was a condition for Theo to come back in 06

2) If I tell a Janitor that hes now "Master of the Custodial Arts (God I love Halfbaked)" then that is more than just a Janitor...no?

3) He can get that if he stays in Boston

 

You're really out in left field on this point.

 

The title and official power means everything. That he performs duties beyond that of his job description is irrelevant, legally speaking. So is what he could get from Boston in the future, which is entirely hypothetical until he actually does.

 

As it stands now, the Cubs job is absolutely a promotion.

[dew1679666265]

He was not in Archers class, and Hendry didn't do a good job in giving him up over Garza.

 

It depends on what you favor, I think. I'm not a minor league guru by any means, but my impression of the two is that Archer has more upside than McNutt, but also has a very high likelihood of flaming out. Archer has great stuff, but significant control problems that raised their head this season for Tampa's minor leagues. McNutt, on the other hand, likely isn't a #1 starter candidate like Archer could be, but also likely has the upside of a #2 type pitcher. Unlike Archer, however, he's a very safe bet to make the majors. Archer could never see the big leagues, while McNutt is close to a lock to making it in some role.

 

I think I'm one of the bigger Archer fans on here, though. I really hated to see him and Lee go in the Garza deal, but wouldn't have felt much (if any) better had it been McNutt instead.

[Mr.X]

I'm still hung up on this: Even if I perform the same duties at a new company, but:

 

1) remove one layer between myself and ownership

2) get a bigger title

3) get a significant pay raise...

 

Then I've gotten a promotion.

 

1) This isn't an issue...Lucchino handles the business side of the house, that was a condition for Theo to come back in 06

2) If I tell a Janitor that hes now "Master of the Custodial Arts (God I love Halfbaked)" then that is more than just a Janitor...no?

3) He can get that if he stays in Boston

 

You're really out in left field on this point.

 

The title and official power means everything. That he performs duties beyond that of his job description is irrelevant, legally speaking. So is what he could get from Boston in the future, which is entirely hypothetical until he actually does.

 

As it stands now, the Cubs job is absolutely a promotion.

 

Sure the description is relevant though, its a promotion on paper but in reality hes going to be doing the same job, hence is why the Sox asked for compensation before granting permission.

[Gmoney23]

And McNutt is mid level...so we're back to square one again.

 

You must think very highly of the Cubs' farm system if you see a top 50 prospect who could be major league ready by next season as a mid-level prospect.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs system if you consider him top 50. He had a step back, hes not top 50 until he proves something at the higher levels. Blisters are a concern, but I'm just not a fan...now that's me personally...my opinion is like all of yours it means nothing in the basis of these talks. It all depends on how these teams view the Cubs farm system.

 

BA had him at 48 this year. I'm sure he'll drop out of the top 50 after struggling with injuries this year, but even if you amend my statement, it still holds true.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs' system if you consider a top 100 prospect who could be major league ready next year as a mid-level prospect. When I think of a mid-level prospect, I don't think of a guy who has a very good shot at making the majors in some capacity.

 

Im a big McNutt fan but I highly doubt he is major league ready next season.

 

I think all in all giving up McNutt if push came to shove is something the Cubs should do. If you think about it he is now the 4th step down in negotiations supposedly. First it was Garza/Castro, we all knew that wasnt going to happen, 2nd was Bjax and justifiably so the Cubs turned that down, then there was talk of Sczur, and now the talk seems to have shifted to McNutt, would I like to get out of this without giving up McNutt.. absolutely.

 

But, IMO at this point if the Cubs giveup McNutt for Epstein, they have won the war.

[Guest]

I kinda want an answer to this question from a Boston fan...

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

[VVMattVV]

They were 4th and 8th in the Marlins system before hand...all three had down years...McNutt ran the risk of being a one year wonder after coming out of nowhere as a late round guy. Look I'm not trying to diminish what McNutt has done, that's not what this is about as I feel like I've been very rational about both sides, however that's not to say that everyone will agree with my points. There's die hard fans on both sides...Some cubs fans believe that 3.5 million is all they should pay...take it or leave it no prospects...nothing. Then you have Sox fans who believe that the Cubs should give them Jackson and then some...so again its all about finding that middle ground.

 

4th and 8th in the Marlins system with a down year does not equal McNutt having a down year.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

I believe those rankings aren't updated...if he is #48 at the beginning of 2012...I will personally come on here and agree with every single one of your posts from here on out! :hello: He was not in Archers class, and Hendry didn't do a good job in giving him up over Garza. Hes one of those prospects that everyone has different opinions on...I'm obviously low on him, and would be fine if the Sox ended up with Calderino and another prospect from the Dominican that has a high ceiling instead of McNutt.

 

Of course Archer's stature took a dive this year as well, and I don't believe he has injuries to fall back on.

 

Oh and stay the [expletive] away from my Jeimer

[Mr.X]

And McNutt is mid level...so we're back to square one again.

 

You must think very highly of the Cubs' farm system if you see a top 50 prospect who could be major league ready by next season as a mid-level prospect.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs system if you consider him top 50. He had a step back, hes not top 50 until he proves something at the higher levels. Blisters are a concern, but I'm just not a fan...now that's me personally...my opinion is like all of yours it means nothing in the basis of these talks. It all depends on how these teams view the Cubs farm system.

 

BA had him at 48 this year. I'm sure he'll drop out of the top 50 after struggling with injuries this year, but even if you amend my statement, it still holds true.

 

You must think highly of the Cubs' system if you consider a top 100 prospect who could be major league ready next year as a mid-level prospect. When I think of a mid-level prospect, I don't think of a guy who has a very good shot at making the majors in some capacity.

 

Im a big McNutt fan but I highly doubt he is major league ready next season.

 

I think all in all giving up McNutt if push came to shove is something the Cubs should do. If you think about it he is now the 4th step down in negotiations supposedly. First it was Garza/Castro, we all knew that wasnt going to happen, 2nd was Bjax and justifiably so the Cubs turned that down, then there was talk of Sczur, and now the talk seems to have shifted to McNutt, would I like to get out of this without giving up McNutt.. absolutely.

 

But, IMO at this point if the Cubs giveup McNutt for Epstein, they have won the war.

 

On the flip side, if Epstein builds a title contender and brings one home to Wrigley then the Cubs in reality win the war...either way the Cubs will get more value in Epstein if this happens than the Sox will in McNutt or whomever they get for compensation, bottom line. The reason why? Because Theo will control the whole minor leagues from top to bottom and has a knack of knowing who to keep and who to deal for major league help. The only two to bite him in the ass was Murphy and Masterson...(Hanley was Lucchino...and hell it brought us a title)

[EpsteinCubs]

Archer will be fine. I bet he has a bounce-back year next season and makes the Rays roster fairly quickly into the season. It's not an easy transition to be traded and it takes some guys longer to adjust than others.

 

And if it's McNutt or bust for getting Theo, then I give up McNutt. But I'd much rather give up someone like Vitters with how weak our pitching is in the minor league level. I highly doubt the Cubs want Vitters because he's not an Epstein-type player right now which probably means the Red Sox don't want him either.

Edited October 18, 2011 by EpsteinCubs

[XZero771679666304]

 

Sure the description is relevant though, its a promotion on paper but in reality hes going to be doing the same job, hence is why the Sox asked for compensation before granting permission.

 

The paper is all that matters. If this was to go before a mediator that argument would be dismissed out of hand. And it has been made fairly clear that Lucchino has meddled in baseball ops throughout, so let's not pretend Theo is reporting only to Henry, as he would only be reporting to Ricketts, in actuality and contractually.

 

Trying to spin this into a lateral move is laughable.

[Guest]

Archer will be fine. I bet he has a bounce-back year next season and makes the Rays roster fairly quickly into the season. It's not an easy transition to be traded and it takes some guys longer to adjust than others.

 

And if it's McNutt or bust for getting Theo, then I give up McNutt. But I'd much rather give up someone like Vitters with how weak our pitching is in the minor league level. I highly doubt the Cubs want Vitters because he's not an Epstein-type player right now which probably means the Red Sox don't want him either.

Can you tell me which of the seven starters he's going to displace?

[Guest]

 

Sure the description is relevant though, its a promotion on paper but in reality hes going to be doing the same job, hence is why the Sox asked for compensation before granting permission.

 

The paper is all that matters. If this was to go before a mediator that argument would be dismissed out of hand. And it has been made fairly clear that Lucchino has meddled in baseball ops throughout, so let's not pretend Theo is reporting only to Henry, as he would only be reporting to Ricketts, in actuality and contractually.

 

Trying to spin this into a lateral move is laughable.

He's avoiding my question.

[Mr.X]

I kinda want an answer to this question from a Boston fan...

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

 

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06

The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no? He would get a big raise regardless...Cashman has had the same position since 96, yet he doesn't have to report to the Tampa Faction anymore and this is similar to what happened already with Theo and Larry. Depending on who you ask its either improved their working relationship greatly or has not at all..

[EpsteinCubs]

Archer will be fine. I bet he has a bounce-back year next season and makes the Rays roster fairly quickly into the season. It's not an easy transition to be traded and it takes some guys longer to adjust than others.

 

And if it's McNutt or bust for getting Theo, then I give up McNutt. But I'd much rather give up someone like Vitters with how weak our pitching is in the minor league level. I highly doubt the Cubs want Vitters because he's not an Epstein-type player right now which probably means the Red Sox don't want him either.

Can you tell me which of the seven starters he's going to displace?

I bet they start him off in a reliever role like they did with David Price and use him as a spot-starter when an injury comes up. The Rays are probably better off trading one of their starters though, more than likely Shields. They are just stacked. James Shields, David Price, Hellickson, Matt Moore, Wade Davis. And to think they had Matt Garza in 2010.

[Guest]

I kinda want an answer to this question from a Boston fan...

 

If Theo stays in Boston and:

 

1) has the layer between him and Henry removed

2) gets a CEO title

3) gets a big raise

 

Did he get a promotion?

 

1) He has that already...as I said Lucchino is on the business side now...this already happened back in 06

The rest of it is semantics, in the case of him being "Co CEO" he could appoint a general manager and be put into a Shapiro role and have Cherrington be his Chris Antonelli...I see where you're coming from, but Byrnes is not in place and as of right not that's only an assumption, until Theo gets hired Byrnes cannot get hired. Thus for now Theo could be whatever the hell he pleases but if he keeps the same duties then he is the GM still...no? He would get a big raise regardless...Cashman has had the same position since 96, yet he doesn't have to report to the Tampa Faction anymore and this is similar to what happened already with Theo and Larry. Depending on who you ask its either improved their working relationship greatly or has not at all..

Flat out question: Who does Theo currently report to? No beating around the bush with Lucchino being off baseball duties or any nonsense like that. If you pull up the current org chart, does Theo report directly to Henry?

[dew1679666265]

Im a big McNutt fan but I highly doubt he is major league ready next season.

 

Before he struggled with injuries it was very realistic that he could be up at some point in 2011. If the injuries hadn't hit him at the same time they hit Wells and Cashner, I think McNutt would have been up. I expect he'll start the season in AA, maybe eventually get a AAA promotion, and then be in the majors sometime midseason to September callup at the latest.

 

If it takes longer to regain his previous form I could see them pushing his debut back to 2013 to be on the safe side, though.

 

I think all in all giving up McNutt if push came to shove is something the Cubs should do. If you think about it he is now the 4th step down in negotiations supposedly. First it was Garza/Castro, we all knew that wasnt going to happen, 2nd was Bjax and justifiably so the Cubs turned that down, then there was talk of Sczur, and now the talk seems to have shifted to McNutt, would I like to get out of this without giving up McNutt.. absolutely.

 

But, IMO at this point if the Cubs giveup McNutt for Epstein, they have won the war.

 

I still wouldn't budge at this point. I'm not sure I'd go any higher than something similar to Jay Jackson and a lower level lottery ticket type - maybe an Abner Abreu or something similar + cash. They get a high level pitcher who could become a starter or reliever, a guy who could make the majors with the right development plan, and get out of Theo's conclusion bonus.

 

Does anybody know if Ricketts can discuss Cubs matters with Theo right now? Ricketts could potentially bring Byrnes in to kind of lead the manager/front office search and begin filling those positions (with Theo's input, if possible) and that would allow Ricketts to be that much more patient in waiting out the Sox.

[Hollandsworths mug]

"Epsten deal a go but might miss deadline".

 

Still negotiating about prospects.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/8272985-573/theo-epstein-deal-a-go-but-it-might-miss-deadline.html

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Archer will be fine. I bet he has a bounce-back year next season and makes the Rays roster fairly quickly into the season. It's not an easy transition to be traded and it takes some guys longer to adjust than others.

 

And if it's McNutt or bust for getting Theo, then I give up McNutt. But I'd much rather give up someone like Vitters with how weak our pitching is in the minor league level. I highly doubt the Cubs want Vitters because he's not an Epstein-type player right now which probably means the Red Sox don't want him either.

Can you tell me which of the seven starters he's going to displace?

 

He'll find a place in their pen. I'm not a big Archer fan, but I do think his fastball/breaking ball combo can be really good out of the pen. He walks too many guys anyway...and it's never really gone away.