Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[SouthSideRyan]

You tell him nobody cares about his stupid son?

[Mr.X]

First off I would like to say I like this board and I like the fact that there are a lot of people on here with strong opinions about this topic on here as well. I'm a member over at SoSH, this whole thing is making my head spin on one hand Cubs fans believe that they have the leverage in the deal because, Theo agreed to a deal and "he can't go back to Boston". Sox fans believe that they have leverage because of the fact that they have a GM that has won two world series titles and has built a strong nucleus of talent. From an unbiased opinion I actually think both teams have leverage in the matter.

 

The Cubs have leverage because, the reality is this the media and fan perception of this team as of right now is addition by subtraction. Anyone who had anything to do with this whole season needs to be fired, etc... The Cubs also have options outside of Epstein that are fairly workable, such as Hahn and others.

 

The Sox have leverage due to the fact that Epstein is their property, he can come back (happened in 2005 and Hoyer/Cherrington became Co-GM's, although I would probably chuckle a little bit if Epstein snuck out of Yawkey Way this time in a Cubbies Mascot Suit), and the fact that he is the man in charge of Baseball Operations in Boston...not Lucchino (as part of the agreement to bring him back the first time was to give him control over this aspect of the team...this is why its not a lateral move...but more on this in a second).

 

The Cubs had to ask the Red Sox for permission based on the fact that Epstein was in fact the property of the Red Sox for one more year. It is in the Red Sox right to ask for appropriate compensation regarding this matter (Not Garza, but you can't blame them for trying), and I'm positive that this was brought up before permission was even granted and the Cubs agreed to that. So the fact that it is coming across as Ricketts doing the Sox a spade for taking off of their hands a "disgruntled employee" is far from the truth. All parties as in any negotiation know the parameters of what it will take before getting the parameters of a contract in place. They could have easily denied the Cubs permission because of the contract, regardless of promotion or not. For example, the Marlins have Dan Jennings and they routinely deny him opportunities to interview for GM positions, same with the Tigers and Al Avila. However, a team like the Blue Jays will allow their guys to go without too much of a fight, unless its someone like AA.

 

So all of this leads to the compensation piece, for which you have Billy Beane, Lou Piniella, Chuck Tanner, and Ozzie Guillen to use as a barometer for. Beane the Sox would have given a mid level project (probably not Youk, despite popular thought), Chuck Tanner fetched an all star, Ozzie fetched two top prospects who were coming off down years, and Lou Piniella fetched Randy Winn. Using Guillen as a comparison since he was the most recent, a guy like McNutt would be comparable to what the Marlins gave up to Chicago in this case. Jackson would be too much, Sczuzr probably would be also, although I would welcome that return with open arms as I myself, am not that high on McNutt to begin with. The likely outcome is the same with each of these deals, a top 5 prospect. Now there's a difference between one of those in a system like Kansas City/Tampa and one in a system like Boston's, Chicago's etc...Chicago's system is like Boston's in the sense there is a lot of intriguing talent at the bottom such as Sczuzr/Candelario but the shelves are not stocked too well in AAA/AA overall.

 

Again nothing that I mention here is too insane as all I am using is the Guillen comp and others to make this determination. Do I think the Sox will get an all star out of this? Absolutely not, the guy that we get will be at best a solid contributor at the major league level someday, with maybe the outside chance of making an all star team or two. The deal that would match up numbers wise is McNutt, which from what I've read on here is 50/50 on if people would give him up in a deal, which is understandable, however hes not a blue chip prospect, IF everything falls into place correctly then he will be a middle of the rotation arm. For a 22 year old pitcher in the minors, this is a crap shoot.

 

Which leads me to my next point, everything I have posted above is why Ricketts should do this, you get the sure thing in Theo, rebuild the operations department and quite frankly reunite the team of Theo and Byrnes which shouldn't be understated at all as a major coup. Byrnes made some bad deals in hindsight when he was running AZ, but the guy is a good talent evaluator. If McNutt turns into a number 3-4 in 2-3 years this means nothing if the Cubs are putting up a banner in that time period. Young talent is very hard to find, and especially if its cost controlled, and that's where I can see the Cubs balking. But here's the truth, unless if you are in on those meetings it doesn't matter who is reporting what, everything could be further from the truth.

 

My prediction: Theo returns to the Sox with the title of Co-CEO or something of that ilk (the relationship can be repaired and has been before), Cherington becomes GM, and The Cubs...they do already for themselves with new GM Thad Levine and hires Ryan Sandberg to be the manager. I just think that Larry's hard line negotiations will force Ricketts to look elsewhere and Levine would be a fine choice based on what Texas has done in the last few years.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Mr.X

[Theo]

He later said it wasn't actually his son but his stepson

[Rob]

I must hate myself, as I'm listening to Goldstein on Kaplan's show.

[Soul]

I get the sense Luccino/Henry want to derail this thing just because people suggested they can't.

[El Duderino]

I never thought I could hate any team more than the cardinals

[mookie]

The Orioles are going to have a GM before we do.

[davearm2]

I get the sense Luccino/Henry want to derail this thing just because people suggested they can't.

Or this was their plan all along.

[XZero771679666304]

I must hate myself, as I'm listening to Goldstein on Kaplan's show.

 

Has anything substantive been said, or is it the same [expletive] we've been hearing for the past 72 hours?

[EpsteinCubs]

David Kaplan

At this point it does not appear that the Cubs will finalize the Theo Epstein deal before the World Series which means that nothing will happen until after the World Series is over, per MLB rules. Stay tuned.

https://www.facebook.com/thekapman/posts/263531533685359

[davearm2]

So, what's the Cubs' drop-dead date on this thing?

[Rob]

I must hate myself, as I'm listening to Goldstein on Kaplan's show.

 

Has anything substantive been said, or is it the same [expletive] we've been hearing for the past 72 hours?

 

Same old [expletive], mostly. Kaplan is a moron and said nothing of note. Goldstein is still convinced the Red Sox have most of the leverage, but he seems to think it'll come down to something like McNutt + Dolis. He likes Wellington Castillo and thinks the Red Sox should be asking about him, but he hasn't heard they've asked.

[Banedon]

David Kaplan

At this point it does not appear that the Cubs will finalize the Theo Epstein deal before the World Series which means that nothing will happen until after the World Series is over, per MLB rules. Stay tuned.

https://www.facebook.com/thekapman/posts/263531533685359

 

Lemme fix that for you Kapman. Nothing will be announced till after the world series due to mlb policy. They can still talk, can still agree, and theres no rule on world series announcements, just policy.

[XZero771679666304]

I'm not liking the prospect of waiting 7-10 more days for an official announcement of some kind.

[ZMovieman]

I'm not liking the prospect of waiting 7-10 more days for an official announcement of some kind.

 

More reason to pray for a Rangers four game sweep of the Cardinals...

[Guest]

I'm not liking the prospect of waiting 7-10 more days for an official announcement of some kind.

 

It's cool. They'll announce it on Monday after the Rangers have completed their World Series sweep.

 

/wishfulthinking

[mookie]

This thing is going to go seven games with at least 3 rain outs.

[WilcoFan]

I wonder if these leaks are the Storm Before the Calm...i.e. the last ditch efforts to control the narrative before both groups agree to a compensation package and announce tomorrow.

 

Not likely, but it seems odd that there is so much coming out today after a relatively silent process thus far.

[XZero771679666304]

 

My prediction: Theo returns to the Sox with the title of Co-CEO or something of that ilk (the relationship can be repaired and has been before), Cherington becomes GM, and The Cubs...they do already for themselves with new GM Thad Levine and hires Ryan Sandberg to be the manager. I just think that Larry's hard line negotiations will force Ricketts to look elsewhere and Levine would be a fine choice based on what Texas has done in the last few years.

 

Theo's gone. The relationship may have been repaired before, but the rift wasn't this severe. Henry and Lucchino appear be putting themselves on one side and everyone else on another. Henry sort of just threw Theo under the bus with his comments about the Crawford signing, and he has been speaking about Theo's tenure in the past tense throughout this entire process. Theo has told the Sox he won't be staying. The only conceivable scenario where Theo stays is one where he replaces Lucchino, and there has been no indication whatsoever that could happen.

 

The only question here is who will blink first in the showdown over compensation, and how long it will take for that to happen.

[Guest]

So all of this leads to the compensation piece, for which you have Billy Beane, Lou Piniella, Chuck Tanner, and Ozzie Guillen to use as a barometer for. Beane the Sox would have given a mid level project (probably not Youk, despite popular thought), Chuck Tanner fetched an all star, Ozzie fetched two top prospects who were coming off down years, and Lou Piniella fetched Randy Winn. Using Guillen as a comparison since he was the most recent, a guy like McNutt would be comparable to what the Marlins gave up to Chicago in this case. Jackson would be too much, Sczuzr probably would be also, although I would welcome that return with open arms as I myself, am not that high on McNutt to begin with. The likely outcome is the same with each of these deals, a top 5 prospect. Now there's a difference between one of those in a system like Kansas City/Tampa and one in a system like Boston's, Chicago's etc...Chicago's system is like Boston's in the sense there is a lot of intriguing talent at the bottom such as Sczuzr/Candelario but the shelves are not stocked too well in AAA/AA overall.

 

Again nothing that I mention here is too insane as all I am using is the Guillen comp and others to make this determination. Do I think the Sox will get an all star out of this? Absolutely not, the guy that we get will be at best a solid contributor at the major league level someday, with maybe the outside chance of making an all star team or two. The deal that would match up numbers wise is McNutt, which from what I've read on here is 50/50 on if people would give him up in a deal, which is understandable, however hes not a blue chip prospect, IF everything falls into place correctly then he will be a middle of the rotation arm. For a 22 year old pitcher in the minors, this is a crap shoot.

 

The thing is, McNutt is better than the prospects the Marlins gave up (combined). A top 5 prospect in the Cubs system is not the equivalent to a top 5 prospect in the Marlins system.

[XZero771679666304]

I wonder if these leaks are the Storm Before the Calm...i.e. the last ditch efforts to control the narrative before both groups agree to a compensation package and announce tomorrow.

 

Not likely, but it seems odd that there is so much coming out today after a relatively silent process thus far.

 

 

Yeah, there has really been a tight lid on this thing. I get the feeling no one not directly involved has any real idea what is going on, and that a lot of people are flat out guessing.

[Mr.X]

 

My prediction: Theo returns to the Sox with the title of Co-CEO or something of that ilk (the relationship can be repaired and has been before), Cherington becomes GM, and The Cubs...they do already for themselves with new GM Thad Levine and hires Ryan Sandberg to be the manager. I just think that Larry's hard line negotiations will force Ricketts to look elsewhere and Levine would be a fine choice based on what Texas has done in the last few years.

 

Theo's gone. The relationship may have been repaired before, but the rift wasn't this severe. Henry and Lucchino appear be putting themselves on one side and everyone else on another. Henry sort of just threw Theo under the bus with his comments about the Crawford signing, and he has been speaking about Theo's tenure in the past tense throughout this entire process. Theo has told the Sox he won't be staying. The only conceivable scenario where Theo stays is one where he replaces Lucchino, and there has been no indication whatsoever that could happen.

 

The only question here is who will blink first in the showdown over compensation, and how long it will take for that to happen.

 

I disagree with the concept of the relationship wasn't this severe, it was in my opinion worse back in 05, with Larry pretty much not letting him run the ops department. Everything can be fixed, however what do you expect Henry to say? He also did go on to say that he wished Theo would be the GM forever so I think it could be looked at from both points of view.

[Mr.X]

So all of this leads to the compensation piece, for which you have Billy Beane, Lou Piniella, Chuck Tanner, and Ozzie Guillen to use as a barometer for. Beane the Sox would have given a mid level project (probably not Youk, despite popular thought), Chuck Tanner fetched an all star, Ozzie fetched two top prospects who were coming off down years, and Lou Piniella fetched Randy Winn. Using Guillen as a comparison since he was the most recent, a guy like McNutt would be comparable to what the Marlins gave up to Chicago in this case. Jackson would be too much, Sczuzr probably would be also, although I would welcome that return with open arms as I myself, am not that high on McNutt to begin with. The likely outcome is the same with each of these deals, a top 5 prospect. Now there's a difference between one of those in a system like Kansas City/Tampa and one in a system like Boston's, Chicago's etc...Chicago's system is like Boston's in the sense there is a lot of intriguing talent at the bottom such as Sczuzr/Candelario but the shelves are not stocked too well in AAA/AA overall.

 

Again nothing that I mention here is too insane as all I am using is the Guillen comp and others to make this determination. Do I think the Sox will get an all star out of this? Absolutely not, the guy that we get will be at best a solid contributor at the major league level someday, with maybe the outside chance of making an all star team or two. The deal that would match up numbers wise is McNutt, which from what I've read on here is 50/50 on if people would give him up in a deal, which is understandable, however hes not a blue chip prospect, IF everything falls into place correctly then he will be a middle of the rotation arm. For a 22 year old pitcher in the minors, this is a crap shoot.

 

The thing is, McNutt is better than the prospects the Marlins gave up (combined). A top 5 prospect in the Cubs system is not the equivalent to a top 5 prospect in the Marlins system.

 

I would disagree with this as both guys were pretty well thought of before a setback this year, McNutt had a similar set back this year as well. If he had progressed then I would absolutely be in agreement with you. Like I said I'm not hoping for the guy by any means, however McNutt would be proper compensation. I don't know how you can say that both guys are less valuable than McNutt after all 3 didn't really do that well this year. Kind of a bold statement, no?

[Brett]

The Sox have leverage due to the fact that Epstein is their property.

 

Dred Scott is no longer the law, sir.

[Mr.X]

The Sox have leverage due to the fact that Epstein is their property.

 

Dred Scott is no longer the law, sir.

 

If he wasn't under their control then he would be a free agent and wouldn't need permission from the Sox to interview. My point stands, if the Sox allowed Theo to interview under the premise that they would be compensated then why should this come as a surprise to anyone?