2010-2011 Chicago Bulls Thread

[SpongeWorthy]

Grants way better. He was never more than a third option on a team playing with a prime Jordan and young Shaq and Penny.

[rawaction]

Pippen/Deng actually isn't very far off if we are talking 1991 Pippen.

 

I really like Deng, but they're still pretty far off. The scoring and scoring efficiency is about the same (17.8 ppg on 14.1 shots for Pippen, 17.7 ppg on 14.4 shots for Deng), but everything else is off. Pippen outrebounded Deng (7.3 to 5.5), out-assisted him (6.2 to 2.8), out-stole him (2.4 to 1.0) and out-blocked him (1.1 to 0.6). Deng turns it over a bit less, but he doesn't handle the ball nearly as much as Pippen did.And those are just counting stats. Lu is a really good defender, but I don't think anyone should compare him to Pippen defensively. Really, I don't think too many players in NBA history should be compared to Pippen defensively.

 

Which is why he doesn't have the assist numbers. Scottie was the PG. And he passed the ball to the greatest scorer in NBA history. Deng plays with an MVP caliber PG that creates his own shots. Completely different. And if you take out the assists for the obvious reasons, 91 Pippen isn't that much better than 11 Deng. Defensely, Pippen was really really good, though. Considerably better than Deng, who is well above average.

[Guest]

Grants way better. He was never more than a third option on a team playing with a prime Jordan and young Shaq and Penny.

 

No.

 

He might be better because of his defense. Might. But he was not "way" better, and he was not near the offensive player Boozer is (not the rebounder, either).

[SpongeWorthy]

In a vacuum its close.

 

If you asked Phil who he wouldve rather had on that team, he'd laugh at you for asking a stupid question.

[Banedon]

In a vacuum its close.

 

If you asked Phil who he wouldve rather had on that team, he'd laugh at you for asking a stupid question.

 

Well sure. Phil isn't exactly unbiased. Of course he's going to go with the guy that he won 3 of his championships with.

[bukie]

In a vacuum its close.

 

If you asked Phil who he wouldve rather had on that team, he'd laugh at you for asking a stupid question.

This is clearly the most accurate gauge as to which was the better player.

[Sammy Sofa]

In a vacuum its close.

 

If you asked Phil who he wouldve rather had on that team, he'd laugh at you for asking a stupid question.

 

Wait, what? Your checkmate is to say that a coach would pick the player he coached over the player he didn't coach?

[Tyrant]

And if you take out the assists for the obvious reasons, 91 Pippen isn't that much better than 11 Deng. Defensely, Pippen was really really good, though. Considerably better than Deng, who is well above average.

 

What is the obvious reason? That it supports your argument? I don't know why it makes sense to remove a significant chunk of Pippen's value when comparing him to another player.

 

I mean, if you take away rebounding, Kevin Love isn't that much better than Brook Lopez!

[davell]

Maybe I should have said they'd "probably" win a game or two, instead of "possibly" but I really don't look at this team as a true contender(may be one of the few Bulls fans thinking this way and I obviously hope I'm wrong). But, if the 91 team was truly motivated(and that's the key here), I just don't think this team would take more than a game or two. Hell, maybe they could even take a 3rd game and make it 7-3.

 

Grant was a much better player than Boozer. Especially when it comes to playoff basketball, where defense takes over. If given the chance, he'd have probably been able to score with Boozer if he had been asked to do so. There's not a current Bull who's as good defensively as their counterpart on that team, if you ask me. Noah vs. Cartwright is close, and while Paxson would technically be matched up with Rose, either Jordan or Pippen would be on him, probably taking turns honestly. Paxson would be off guarding our 3 headed monster at SG.

 

In the end, I'd take the team with the greatest player of all time in his prime, playing alongside a guy who was entering his prime and becoming a top 30ish player of all time as well, and a supporting cast that fit their skills to a tee to easily beat this current group of Bulls, who have a young superstar(not in his prime yet) and a nice supporting cast, albeit one that has a hole still at SG. And I don't think it'd be close. Yeah, they probably take a game or two or three, but that's it, if the 91 team is truly motivated each and every time out there.

 

This current team's window is open now, but they're going to get better and add more pieces before I think of them as someone who's going to win a title. Like I said, I really hope I'm wrong about it, but this team plays as hard as they can and I don't see that they can take it up a notch, which I DO think the Celtics(definitely) and probably even the Heat can do.

[Guest]

And if you take out the assists for the obvious reasons, 91 Pippen isn't that much better than 11 Deng. Defensely, Pippen was really really good, though. Considerably better than Deng, who is well above average.

 

What is the obvious reason? That it supports your argument? I don't know why it makes sense to remove a significant chunk of Pippen's value when comparing him to another player.

 

I mean, if you take away rebounding, Kevin Love isn't that much better than Brook Lopez!

 

 

Did Scottie play with a Derrick Rose running 99% of the offense?

 

That said, Deng, while a pretty good passer, is definitely not as good as Scottie (even early in his career) was in the playmaking dept.

[Guest]

Maybe I should have said they'd "probably" win a game or two, instead of "possibly" but I really don't look at this team as a true contender(may be one of the few Bulls fans thinking this way and I obviously hope I'm wrong). But, if the 91 team was truly motivated(and that's the key here), I just don't think this team would take more than a game or two. Hell, maybe they could even take a 3rd game and make it 7-3.

 

Grant was a much better player than Boozer. Especially when it comes to playoff basketball, where defense takes over. If given the chance, he'd have probably been able to score with Boozer if he had been asked to do so. There's not a current Bull who's as good defensively as their counterpart on that team, if you ask me. Noah vs. Cartwright is close, and while Paxson would technically be matched up with Rose, either Jordan or Pippen would be on him, probably taking turns honestly. Paxson would be off guarding our 3 headed monster at SG.

 

In the end, I'd take the team with the greatest player of all time in his prime, playing alongside a guy who was entering his prime and becoming a top 30ish player of all time as well, and a supporting cast that fit their skills to a tee to easily beat this current group of Bulls, who have a young superstar(not in his prime yet) and a nice supporting cast, albeit one that has a hole still at SG. And I don't think it'd be close. Yeah, they probably take a game or two or three, but that's it, if the 91 team is truly motivated each and every time out there.

 

This current team's window is open now, but they're going to get better and add more pieces before I think of them as someone who's going to win a title. Like I said, I really hope I'm wrong about it, but this team plays as hard as they can and I don't see that they can take it up a notch, which I DO think the Celtics(definitely) and probably even the Heat can do.

 

 

They've been healthy for like 5 games (I'm clearly exaggerating - but it's not even THAT far off). That being the case, mind you, I'm pretty sure they are tied with Miami for the best point differential in the league. Best. With that in mind, how aren't they a title contender and how CAN'T they take it up a notch?

 

I don't see how you can think a team that has had key starters hurt for like 80% of the year (again, a made up number - but probably reasonably accurate) has played to 100% of its potential.

 

They're also one of the better defenses in recent history and are historically good in the rebounding dept (in terms of differential, IIRC).

[SouthSideRyan]

I will disagree with Noah being even defensively with a fading Cartwright.

[davell]

To me, it's about "elite" players. The Bulls have one. Teams that usually take it higher have more than that. Currently, we're trying to win a championship Piston-style, if you ask me. Which is fine, but there's going to be some luck involved in doing it.(3rd Piston title, not first pair) If I'm not mistaken, the Bulls record without one of Noah or Boozer is fairly close percentage-wise as to when they have them both. I see what you're saying, about giving a team time to gel basically and I understand where you're coming from. I just don't see how it's going to make a true difference that longer they advance in the playoffs.

 

Personally, I thought coming into the season we were a low 50's win team and probably the 4th best team in the East, behind the Celtics, Heat, and Magic, in that order. I do think we're better than the Magic now, but I'm not convinced we'd beat the Heat in a playoff series, even though we're 3-0 against them. And even with homecourt(if we have it) against the Celtics, I hate to say it, but I'd give us about a 25% chance to win that series. It hasn't even been a real thought as far as making the Finals, but I'd give us less than that if we're playing the Lakers. And probably no more than that if we're playing the Spurs, since we have no shot at homecourt against them.

[rawaction]

And if you take out the assists for the obvious reasons, 91 Pippen isn't that much better than 11 Deng. Defensely, Pippen was really really good, though. Considerably better than Deng, who is well above average.

 

What is the obvious reason? That it supports your argument? I don't know why it makes sense to remove a significant chunk of Pippen's value when comparing him to another player.

 

I mean, if you take away rebounding, Kevin Love isn't that much better than Brook Lopez!

 

Wow. Calm the EFF down. Obvious reasons is the part of my freaking post you cut out. The obvious reason is Deng is playing with the best PG in the NBA. Scottie Pippen was the PG on his team.

 

Can't completely take out assists because that was part of what made Scottie great, but you can't completely use assists as the primary argument of why a guy who handles the ball every time down the court is much better than a guy that never handles the ball down the court (exaggerating a little).

[Guest]

If I'm not mistaken, the Bulls record without one of Noah or Boozer is fairly close percentage-wise as to when they have them both. I see what you're saying, about giving a team time to gel basically and I understand where you're coming from.

 

 

 

I'm not 100% sure, and I'm too lazy to confirm, but I think the Bulls have a significantly better record with Boozer and Noah than without one of them. And the disparity gets even greater if you toss out the 0-2 when Boozer debuted and the Bulls had no idea what was going on on the floor.

 

I *think* they are 17-4 with Boozer and Noah, but confirming that would take more time than I'm willing to expend on it.

[davell]

If I'm not mistaken, the Bulls record without one of Noah or Boozer is fairly close percentage-wise as to when they have them both. I see what you're saying, about giving a team time to gel basically and I understand where you're coming from.

 

 

 

I'm not 100% sure, and I'm too lazy to confirm, but I think the Bulls have a significantly better record with Boozer and Noah than without one of them. And the disparity gets even greater if you toss out the 0-2 when Boozer debuted and the Bulls had no idea what was going on on the floor.

 

I *think* they are 17-4 with Boozer and Noah, but confirming that would take more time than I'm willing to expend on it.

 

Same here :D , but I'll take your word for it.

 

Like I said earlier, I really hope you guys are right about this team.

[Guest]

I'm not expecting a title or anything, but I'm extremely excited about where this team is headed, and the deeper you look into the numbers, the better it gets.

[Guest]

This was from a RealGM thread the other day...

 

Win percentage 0.731 = 2nd in NBA (SA)

Point differential +6.8 = 2nd (Miami = 6.9)

Record in blowouts 25-4 = 1st

versus teams over 0.500 23-12 = 3rd in NBA (Boston, SA)

Rebounding differential +5.6 = 1st in NBA (Orlando second with +3.3)

Defensive rating 99.6 = 1st in NBA

Sagarin rating 2nd in NBA

Sagarin record versus top 10 teams 14-7 = 1st in NBA

Hollinger rating 1st in NBA

 

Someone posted the stats by quarter. Anyone have that? I thought Chicago was 1st in the NBA in the 3rd and 4th quarters. I would love to see some post all star game splits too.

 

I went back 10 years and no team has posted a +5.6 in rebounding, FWIW. This isn't discussed as much as it should be. The Bulls aren't just a good rebounding team. They are historically good.

 

Opponent eFG%: 1st

Opponent points per game: 1st

Opponent True Shooting %: 1st

Opponent FG%: 1st

Opponent 3P%: 1st

Opponent 3P Makes: 1st

Block Rate: 3rd

[Guest]

Wow at the rebound margin.

[SpongeWorthy]

In a vacuum its close.

 

If you asked Phil who he wouldve rather had on that team, he'd laugh at you for asking a stupid question.

 

Wait, what? Your checkmate is to say that a coach would pick the player he coached over the player he didn't coach?

 

I think Phil would've taken Rose over Bobby Hansen.

 

My point is is that Grant/Boozer in a vacuum is close. I'd rather have Grant...he even rates out highly in all the new metrics, spectacularly so in the 91-92 season.

[bukie]

I'd be curious about the rebounding rate difference, since the Bulls are first in opposing FG percentage, leading to more misses than the average team (and defensive rebounds are a lot easier to pull down than offensive rebounds).

[SpongeWorthy]

A young Horace Grant was one of the elite offensive rebounders in league history. Seriously, he was really [expletive] good.

[ctcf]

Uh... Wow. I really love watching the bench just decimate other teams. CJ Watson is killing it right now.

[Keener98]

The Bulls are pretty good

[Wilson A2000]

Best bench in the league. How cool is Derrick to ask Tom if he needed to be in there with CJ playing like that. Rose has the right balance of humility and give me the ball because I am the MVP of the league.