How good is Marmol?

[TruffleShuffle]

in statistics from 2007-10, minimum 150 innings, he is:

 

#9 in ERA

#1 in Batting Average Against (.157 - next best is .184)

#1 in Batting Average Against (.243 - next best is .286)

#1 in strikeouts per 9 IP (12.33)

#1 in H/9 IP (4.87 - next best is 5.92!)

 

this year he is averaging 17.5 K per 9 IP and is on pace to strike out a higher percentage of hitters than any pitcher ever has in a single season (eric gagne has the record from back in his steroid days).

 

marmol's control issues can be frustrating, but it's pretty easy to say that he is the most unhittable pitcher on the planet.

[shnsajax]

I was looking at his K/9 rate the other day. His 2008 season should be remembered as one of the best by a setup man ever.

[UMFan83]

I was looking at his K/9 rate the other day. His 2008 season should be remembered as one of the best by a setup man ever.

 

Statistically I think he was more valuable in 2007.

[Yeti]

kid is sick good

 

i'd like to see less walks, but i'm a stickler.

 

ok, 28, not so young, but im 40, hence "kid"

 

still id like to see less walks

[Prizefight]

I'd say very good.

[Bote McBoteface]

He's eligible for free agency in what, 3 years? Sign him to a 5 year deal in the offseason. If he continues at this pace he's going to get a hell of a contract from the Yankees.

[TheDude]

Marmol is the primary reason I watch the team this year. In 30 years of watching/playing baseball, I've never seen anyone like him.

[jersey cubs fan]

He's eligible for free agency in what, 3 years? Sign him to a 5 year deal in the offseason. If he continues at this pace he's going to get a hell of a contract from the Yankees.

 

He's still a reliever. Press your luck and go year to year. Worst thing is in 4 years you've got draft picks for him and $10m to spend elsewhere. With his ridiculous stuff that arm could go any minute. I can't think of any longterm high quality reliever that relied on that kind of sick potentially arm damaging movement.

[Soul]

Unhittable slider when it is on. Fun to watch hitters look silly against him with the game on the line.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I wish he could put up those numbers for 7 innings every 5 days.

[Banedon]

I wish he could put up those numbers for 7 innings every 5 days.

 

I think that's where potentially an argument could be made. Playing devils advocate here, but how many hard throwing starting pitchers would be able to be unhittable if they only pitched one inning at a time? Certainly there'd be plenty that couldn't make the transition, but still...you have to think his role as a reliever helps him with those stats.

 

That said, he's crazy good...not really trying to diminish that.

[Backtobanks]

I wish he could put up those numbers for 7 innings every 5 days.

 

I think that's where potentially an argument could be made. Playing devils advocate here, but how many hard throwing starting pitchers would be able to be unhittable if they only pitched one inning at a time? Certainly there'd be plenty that couldn't make the transition, but still...you have to think his role as a reliever helps him with those stats.

 

That said, he's crazy good...not really trying to diminish that.

 

I think there aren't as many hard throwing starting pitchers that could make that transition as you think. Many starting pitchers struggle in their first inning. Obviously, in All Star games and the playoffs it happens, but I doubt if very many of them could do it consistently.

[jersey cubs fan]

I wish he could put up those numbers for 7 innings every 5 days.

 

I think that's where potentially an argument could be made. Playing devils advocate here, but how many hard throwing starting pitchers would be able to be unhittable if they only pitched one inning at a time? Certainly there'd be plenty that couldn't make the transition, but still...you have to think his role as a reliever helps him with those stats.

 

That said, he's crazy good...not really trying to diminish that.

 

I think there aren't as many hard throwing starting pitchers that could make that transition as you think. Many starting pitchers struggle in their first inning. Obviously, in All Star games and the playoffs it happens, but I doubt if very many of them could do it consistently.

 

Maybe they struggle early because they are purposefully holding back as they have to pace themselves for 6+ innings and 100+ pitches instead of going balls to the wall for 15-25 pitches.

[dew1679666265]

I wish he could put up those numbers for 7 innings every 5 days.

 

I think that's where potentially an argument could be made. Playing devils advocate here, but how many hard throwing starting pitchers would be able to be unhittable if they only pitched one inning at a time? Certainly there'd be plenty that couldn't make the transition, but still...you have to think his role as a reliever helps him with those stats.

 

That said, he's crazy good...not really trying to diminish that.

 

I think there aren't as many hard throwing starting pitchers that could make that transition as you think. Many starting pitchers struggle in their first inning. Obviously, in All Star games and the playoffs it happens, but I doubt if very many of them could do it consistently.

 

Maybe they struggle early because they are purposefully holding back as they have to pace themselves for 6+ innings and 100+ pitches instead of going balls to the wall for 15-25 pitches.

 

I think that's the thing. A reliever can go all out because he's not throwing as many pitches (obviously). Generally a pitcher who goes from the rotation to the pen will see an improvement in stuff and velocity, but also the bullpen role is less important and impactful.

[Backtobanks]

I wish he could put up those numbers for 7 innings every 5 days.

 

I think that's where potentially an argument could be made. Playing devils advocate here, but how many hard throwing starting pitchers would be able to be unhittable if they only pitched one inning at a time? Certainly there'd be plenty that couldn't make the transition, but still...you have to think his role as a reliever helps him with those stats.

 

That said, he's crazy good...not really trying to diminish that.

 

I think there aren't as many hard throwing starting pitchers that could make that transition as you think. Many starting pitchers struggle in their first inning. Obviously, in All Star games and the playoffs it happens, but I doubt if very many of them could do it consistently.

 

Maybe they struggle early because they are purposefully holding back as they have to pace themselves for 6+ innings and 100+ pitches instead of going balls to the wall for 15-25 pitches.

 

I think that's the thing. A reliever can go all out because he's not throwing as many pitches (obviously). Generally a pitcher who goes from the rotation to the pen will see an improvement in stuff and velocity, but also the bullpen role is less important and impactful.

 

 

I still don't think it's as likely as you think. With the modern emphasis on closers and the big money to go along with it, I would think there would be a lot of hard-throwing pitchers eager to make the switch if it was so easy.

[jersey cubs fan]

I still don't think it's as likely as you think. With the modern emphasis on closers and the big money to go along with it, I would think there would be a lot of hard-throwing pitchers eager to make the switch if it was so easy.

 

Mo made headlines at $10m. Starters blow past that level with regularity. There's one closer per team, and only a handful of mega millionaires. There's all sorts of starters who get that money.

[rawaction]

My contribution to this thread:

 

Giving up walks are bad.

Giving up walks are not as bad if you don't give up many hits.

Giving up walks are not as bad if you don't give up many balls in play.

 

Carlos Marmol is a very good major league pitcher.

[dew1679666265]

I still don't think it's as likely as you think. With the modern emphasis on closers and the big money to go along with it, I would think there would be a lot of hard-throwing pitchers eager to make the switch if it was so easy.

 

Like goony said, there are very few closers in the league in comparison to the number of starters and even fewer closers who make even average starter money. Mariano Rivera is one of the top closers in the history of the game and his salary for this year is $15 million. Derek Lowe is a pretty good pitcher with a strong track record and he's making $15 million this year. There's far, far more money in it for a starter than for a closer.

 

And I'm not saying it's easy to be successful in the pen, just that there's less overall stress on a pitcher's arm when he throws an inning at a time rather than throwing 100+ pitchers an outing. And because of that, the pitcher doesn't have to tone down his stuff at all.

[Ski]

I enjoyed this quote from Fangraphs:

 

"Batters are soon going to be awarded “I’d didn’t K against Marmol” pins for when they manage to either walk (5.23 BB/9) or make some sort of contact against him"

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/nl-closer-report-may-21/

[Backtobanks]

I still don't think it's as likely as you think. With the modern emphasis on closers and the big money to go along with it, I would think there would be a lot of hard-throwing pitchers eager to make the switch if it was so easy.

 

Like goony said, there are very few closers in the league in comparison to the number of starters and even fewer closers who make even average starter money. Mariano Rivera is one of the top closers in the history of the game and his salary for this year is $15 million. Derek Lowe is a pretty good pitcher with a strong track record and he's making $15 million this year. There's far, far more money in it for a starter than for a closer.

 

And I'm not saying it's easy to be successful in the pen, just that there's less overall stress on a pitcher's arm when he throws an inning at a time rather than throwing 100+ pitchers an outing. And because of that, the pitcher doesn't have to tone down his stuff at all.

 

 

The top (in salary) 12 closers average $9.6 million this year. Also, there are more than a few closers who will get that kind of money when the time comes (Marmol, Corpas, Feliz, Soria, Broxton, etc.). I'm not saying you take your #1 starter and turn him into a closer, but many of these pitchers might end up being a #3-#5 starter in the ML. My point is that there are many hard throwing prospects who might be better off by being groomed to be closers rather than being a #5 starter.

[dew1679666265]

The top (in salary) 12 closers average $9.6 million this year. Also, there are more than a few closers who will get that kind of money when the time comes (Marmol, Corpas, Feliz, Soria, Broxton, etc.). I'm not saying you take your #1 starter and turn him into a closer, but many of these pitchers might end up being a #3-#5 starter in the ML. My point is that there are many hard throwing prospects who might be better off by being groomed to be closers rather than being a #5 starter.

 

And the top 12 starters (by salary) average $17 million this year. Jason Marquis makes nearly as much as the average salary of the best closers. There's more money to be made as a #4-5 starter than there is as a closer - unless maybe you're in the truly elite closer ranks (Rivera).

 

Some guys move to the bullpen because they don't have the stamina to go more than 2-3 innings at a time. Others move to the pen because they just weren't good enough as a starter to cut it and they were able to magnify their stuff in the pen (Gagne). However, if you've got a good, quality starter, he should stay in the rotation ideally. With Marmol, his stuff has looked much better to me in the pen than in his short (MLB) stint as a starter. It's pretty clear to me he's dialing it up a little extra knowing he's only throwing, at most, 25-30 pitches.

[Backtobanks]

The top (in salary) 12 closers average $9.6 million this year. Also, there are more than a few closers who will get that kind of money when the time comes (Marmol, Corpas, Feliz, Soria, Broxton, etc.). I'm not saying you take your #1 starter and turn him into a closer, but many of these pitchers might end up being a #3-#5 starter in the ML. My point is that there are many hard throwing prospects who might be better off by being groomed to be closers rather than being a #5 starter.

 

And the top 12 starters (by salary) average $17 million this year. Jason Marquis makes nearly as much as the average salary of the best closers. There's more money to be made as a #4-5 starter than there is as a closer - unless maybe you're in the truly elite closer ranks (Rivera).

 

Some guys move to the bullpen because they don't have the stamina to go more than 2-3 innings at a time. Others move to the pen because they just weren't good enough as a starter to cut it and they were able to magnify their stuff in the pen (Gagne). However, if you've got a good, quality starter, he should stay in the rotation ideally. With Marmol, his stuff has looked much better to me in the pen than in his short (MLB) stint as a starter. It's pretty clear to me he's dialing it up a little extra knowing he's only throwing, at most, 25-30 pitches.

 

I totally agree with most of what you're saying. If you have the stuff to be a solid starter (#1-#3), you should remain a starter, but if your potential is to be a #4 or #5 starter maybe you ought to try being groomed as a closer. Samardzija is an example of what I'm talking about. I don't think he's ever going to be a great starter, but he might develop into a good closer. As others have pointed out, the top 12 starters are a small percentage of all starters while the top 12 closers are a significant percentage.

[dew1679666265]

I totally agree with most of what you're saying. If you have the stuff to be a solid starter (#1-#3), you should remain a starter, but if your potential is to be a #4 or #5 starter maybe you ought to try being groomed as a closer. Samardzija is an example of what I'm talking about. I don't think he's ever going to be a great starter, but he might develop into a good closer. As others have pointed out, the top 12 starters are a small percentage of all starters while the top 12 closers are a significant percentage.

 

I see what you're saying, but would you turn Gorzelanny into a closer? Or Randy Wells? Those guys are much more valuable as starters because, even though neither is a top of the line type starter, both will put up quality numbers for their team. I'd probably only look at guys who can't cut it in a major league rotation (Gagne, potentially Shark, etc.) to move to a closer's role rather than significantly decrease the number of innings a quality starter will throw.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm staying in the camp that says 70 high-leverage innings, with the boost a pitcher usually gets from moving to relief, is about the same value as 200 starters' innings.

[jersey cubs fan]

I totally agree with most of what you're saying. If you have the stuff to be a solid starter (#1-#3), you should remain a starter, but if your potential is to be a #4 or #5 starter maybe you ought to try being groomed as a closer. Samardzija is an example of what I'm talking about. I don't think he's ever going to be a great starter, but he might develop into a good closer. As others have pointed out, the top 12 starters are a small percentage of all starters while the top 12 closers are a significant percentage.

 

I see what you're saying, but would you turn Gorzelanny into a closer? Or Randy Wells? Those guys are much more valuable as starters because, even though neither is a top of the line type starter, both will put up quality numbers for their team. I'd probably only look at guys who can't cut it in a major league rotation (Gagne, potentially Shark, etc.) to move to a closer's role rather than significantly decrease the number of innings a quality starter will throw.

 

I don't see either guy as having the sort of stuff to be all that much better in short outings. I don't see the point of having either in the pen.