NCAA Conference Realignment

[Guest]

Notre Dame plays 2-3 games a year outside the Big 10's footprint. It's not like they go on a traveling roadshow to ends of the country each year.

 

You understand that to play those 3 games outside the Midwest, you news 6 opponents rotating every 2 years to do it, right?

 

Yes, and in a conference, you can still play 2 games out there in the non-con if you like. You're talking about a minimal difference, and I'm not sure that playing Army or San Diego State every few years really makes a difference in Notre Dame's recruiting, especially relative to the other unique aspects of their program(flagship catholic school, national TV contract, etc).

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

Big 10 schools are huge and have terrible grad rates, esp for non-white players.

 

just cant survive with the big boys, can you?

[chuckywang]

So, hypothetical situation here. Let's say the Big East and Big 12 implode to create four 16-team superconferences. There are currently 66 teams in the 6 conferences, not even including schools like Notre Dame, BYU, TCU and Boise State. Who gets left out when the games of musical chairs end?

 

I think this is a large part of why Rutgers wants to hop on a conference now rather than wait to see how things shake out.

 

I think the Big East and Big 12 can(and probably will) implode, but we don't end up at 4x16. If the ACC is pillaging the Big East to get to 16 and the Pac-12 takes the public Big 12 South schools to get to 16, I just don't see many attractive options to justify the Big 10 and SEC going to 16. I think you're more likely to see Conference USA and the Mountain West grow their numbers, and the Mountain West may even get to AQ status in the wake of the Big 12 and Big East.

 

That said, I'd think the teams at most risk are ISU, Baylor, TCU, South Florida, and maybe Cincy and Louisville.

 

Well, here's what I think will happen next:

- UConn and Rutgers/Louisville to ACC (Rutgers wants in, but I think Louisville would fit better) so ACC is at 16

- A&M and, let's say, West Virginia to SEC to get to 14 in SEC

- Texas, Oklahoma, OSU, and BYU/Texas Tech(?) to Pac to get them to 16

- ND/Big Ten makes too much sense not to happen at this point, so the Big Ten adds them and Cincy/Louisville/Rutgers/Missouri to get to 14.

 

That leaves an absence of 4 spots (2 each in SEC/Big Ten) for the 4x16 layout, and leaves Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, South Florida, TCU, one of BYU/Texas Tech, and two of Cincy/Louisville/Rutgers/Missouri out. Maybe those 8 teams can form another conference from the ashes along with Boise State and a couple other high-profile MWC teams?

 

Rutgers, cause the ACC wants more of that NYC market.

[Tracer Bullet]

Notre Dame plays 2-3 games a year outside the Big 10's footprint. It's not like they go on a traveling roadshow to ends of the country each year.

 

You understand that to play those 3 games outside the Midwest, you news 6 opponents rotating every 2 years to do it, right?

 

Yes, and in a conference, you can still play 2 games out there in the non-con if you like. You're talking about a minimal difference, and I'm not sure that playing Army or San Diego State every few years really makes a difference in Notre Dame's recruiting, especially relative to the other unique aspects of their program(flagship catholic school, national TV contract, etc).

 

Jesus TT. You're better than a BS strawman.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

Big 10 schools are huge and have terrible grad rates, esp for non-white players.

 

just cant survive with the big boys, can you?

 

We've been trying to keep pace with Minnesota for years. But their top recruits keep staying home. Like Michael Floyd, for example.

[Guest]

Notre Dame plays 2-3 games a year outside the Big 10's footprint. It's not like they go on a traveling roadshow to ends of the country each year.

 

You understand that to play those 3 games outside the Midwest, you news 6 opponents rotating every 2 years to do it, right?

 

Yes, and in a conference, you can still play 2 games out there in the non-con if you like. You're talking about a minimal difference, and I'm not sure that playing Army or San Diego State every few years really makes a difference in Notre Dame's recruiting, especially relative to the other unique aspects of their program(flagship catholic school, national TV contract, etc).

 

Jesus TT. You're better than a BS strawman.

 

Sorry, I just don't see the location of games having much of an impact on Notre Dame's recruiting. If you want them to have a flexibility to play whoever they want and go to Ireland and rotate marquee opponents in and out and all that, that's stellar. But let's not pretend that they're going to be hampered in their recruiting efforts because they can't play at each of the 4 corners of the country every year. No matter the outcome, Big 10, ACC, Independent or otherwise, Notre Dame is going to have outrageous exposure and coverage. That's exponentially more important than physically playing in San Diego or Boston on an infrequent basis when it comes to recruiting.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Big 10 schools are huge and have terrible grad rates, esp for non-white players.

 

just cant survive with the big boys, can you?

 

We've been trying to keep pace with Minnesota for years. But their top recruits keep staying home. Like Michael Floyd, for example.

 

And now by joining the Big Ten they won't be able to schedule Duke @ Target Field. Bye bye Michael Floyd.

[Tracer Bullet]

Notre Dame plays 2-3 games a year outside the Big 10's footprint. It's not like they go on a traveling roadshow to ends of the country each year.

 

You understand that to play those 3 games outside the Midwest, you news 6 opponents rotating every 2 years to do it, right?

 

Yes, and in a conference, you can still play 2 games out there in the non-con if you like. You're talking about a minimal difference, and I'm not sure that playing Army or San Diego State every few years really makes a difference in Notre Dame's recruiting, especially relative to the other unique aspects of their program(flagship catholic school, national TV contract, etc).

 

Jesus TT. You're better than a BS strawman.

 

Sorry, I just don't see the location of games having much of an impact on Notre Dame's recruiting. If you want them to have a flexibility to play whoever they want and go to Ireland and rotate marquee opponents in and out and all that, that's stellar. But let's not pretend that they're going to be hampered in their recruiting efforts because they can't play at each of the 4 corners of the country every year. No matter the outcome, Big 10, ACC, Independent or otherwise, Notre Dame is going to have outrageous exposure and coverage. That's exponentially more important than physically playing in San Diego or Boston on an infrequent basis when it comes to recruiting.

 

I think you grossly overestimate ND's exposure. Point to the last positive story ESPN broadcast about ND. Go ahead and search, I'll wait. Let me know when you give up. NBC is great bc the lead-in to ND games is probably fishing, and the halftime show features Peter King talking NFL and they're going to show at least 1 game on versus this year. The pbp is a buffoon and until last year, the color guy was a QB from the biggest rival (and is now the rival's AD).

 

And if they join the bigx, you think ND will keep its private tv contract? (If they join the ACC, they probably will.) The only reason usf was a nationally televised game was bc of that contract. Join the bigx and you probably get ND on nation-wide tv 5-6 times, esp when they play Minnesota, indy, purdue, msu most years, and Missouri or whomever else joins. Joining the bigx keeps the exposure in the Midwest.

 

I also think you underestimate the cool factor of venues to college kids. They have to spend 10 months a year in SB. You probably aren't familiar with the area, but it isn't exactly south beach (twice as much skin on half as many people). If you were a freshman last year, you get to play in Yankee Stadium, Soldier Field, Ireland, FedEx Field,the Rose Bowl (stadium, not the game), Dallas' new stadium, and if you stay a fifth year, the Meadowlands, not to mention at Oklahoma, Michigan, and obviously ND stadium. That's badass to recruits.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

Big 10 schools are huge and have terrible grad rates, esp for non-white players.

 

just cant survive with the big boys, can you?

 

We've been trying to keep pace with Minnesota for years. But their top recruits keep staying home. Like Michael Floyd, for example.

 

And now by joining the Big Ten they won't be able to schedule Duke @ Target Field. Bye bye Michael Floyd.

 

What are you talking about?

[chuckywang]

With all this talk about four 16 team superconferences, I decided to try to make a preliminary list based on current rumors and geographical considerations. I'm assuming the Big East and the Big 12 are no more.

 

PAC-16

---------

UCLA

USC

Stanford

Cal

Oregon

Oregon St

Washington

Washington St

Arizona

Arizona St

Utah

Colorado

Texas

Texas Tech

Oklahoma

Oklahoma St

 

 

Big Ten

----------

Minnesota

Wisconsin

Michigan

Michigan St

Illinois

Northwestern

Iowa

Indiana

Purdue

Ohio St

Penn St

Nebraska

Iowa St

Notre Dame

Missouri

Kansas

 

 

SEC

---------

Florida

South Carolina

Alabama

Auburn

Mississippi

Mississippi St

LSU

Tennessee

Kentucky

Vanderbilt

Arkansas

Georgia

Texas A&M

TCU

West Virginia

Louisville

 

 

 

ACC

---------

Boston College

Maryland

Virginia Tech

Virginia

Duke

Wake Forest

North Carolina

NC State

Clemson

Georgia Tech

Miami

Florida St

Syracuse

Pittsburgh

Connecticut

Rutgers

 

 

 

 

Big East - basketball

----------

Georgetown

Villanova

St. Johns

Seton Hall

Marquette

Cincinnati

South Florida

DePaul

Providence

Xavier

Butler

Temple

 

 

Kansas St -> to MWC

Baylor -> to MWC

 

Cincinnati -> back to Conference USA

South Florida -> back to Conference USA

 

I also think the MWC will become the new Big East in terms of football dominance and will be able to get a BCS automatic bid.

[NeifiIsMyHomeBoy]

ChuckyWang's List

 

There is no reason for the B1G to take Iowa State or Kansas. They add very little to the revenue pie. ND and Mizzou are the only two options on the table that (1) fit the profile of the conference and (2) add value to the league and increase the BTN's footprint. I'm perfectly content with staying at 12 teams, there is no need to expand to expand.

[SouthSideRyan]

Why in God's name would the Big Ten want Kansas, let alone Iowa State.?

[chuckywang]

ChuckyWang's List

 

There is no reason for the B1G to take Iowa State or Kansas. They add very little to the revenue pie. ND and Mizzou are the only two options on the table that (1) fit the profile of the conference and (2) add value to the league and increase the BTN's footprint. I'm perfectly content with staying at 12 teams, there is no need to expand to expand.

 

Adding Iowa State will create a natural conference rivalry with Iowa. Adding Kansas will increase the league's basketball profile. You have to add someone if you want to get to 16. That's the assumption I started out with.

Edited September 19, 2011 by chuckywang

[SouthSideRyan]

Iowa State, I mean holy [expletive].

[bukie]

The Big Ten would be more likely to add BYU than Iowa State.

 

And by that I don't mean the Big Ten would be likely to add BYU.

[jersey cubs fan]

ChuckyWang's List

 

There is no reason for the B1G to take Iowa State or Kansas. They add very little to the revenue pie. ND and Mizzou are the only two options on the table that (1) fit the profile of the conference and (2) add value to the league and increase the BTN's footprint. I'm perfectly content with staying at 12 teams, there is no need to expand to expand.

 

Adding Iowa State will create a natural conference rivalry with Iowa. Adding Kansas will increase the league's basketball profile. You have to add someone if you want to get to 16. That's the assumption I started out with.

 

Iowa is not exactly struggling for rivals in the conference.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Big 10 schools are huge and have terrible grad rates, esp for non-white players.

 

just cant survive with the big boys, can you?

 

We've been trying to keep pace with Minnesota for years. But their top recruits keep staying home. Like Michael Floyd, for example.

 

And now by joining the Big Ten they won't be able to schedule Duke @ Target Field. Bye bye Michael Floyd.

 

What are you talking about?

 

ND doesn't need to play in Minnesota to get Floyd, they don't need to play in Texas to get somebody from there.

 

Nevermind that these obstacles are the same in the ACC as they are in the Big Ten (unless you're expecting the ACC to allow ND a 4 game conference schedule), and at least in the Big Ten you've got UM, Purdue, and MSU as teams ND is already playing every year. Other than BC, FSU and Miami are the only ACC teams I can think of that ND has played much at all over the past 30 years and they're certainly not as regular as the 3 afformentioned Big Ten schools. (FSU and Miami are no more "regular" opponents than OSU, PSU, or Northwestern are)

[SouthSideRyan]

Your belief is that if ND wasn't getting pooed on every other year by USC @ USC then Clausen never would have committed?

[Tarver]

Is the NCAA completely powerless? Don't these idiots realize as long this situation remains tenuous the attention will be on the uncertainty and not good football?

 

Maybe it's time for a new national governing body.

[Formerly Snayke]

Why in God's name would the Big Ten want Kansas

 

Basketball superconference? KU, Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State and Wisconsin would make for a ridiculously entertaining league.

[Tracer Bullet]

ND doesn't need to play in Minnesota to get Floyd, they don't need to play in Texas to get somebody from there.

 

Nevermind that these obstacles are the same in the ACC as they are in the Big Ten (unless you're expecting the ACC to allow ND a 4 game conference schedule), and at least in the Big Ten you've got UM, Purdue, and MSU as teams ND is already playing every year. Other than BC, FSU and Miami are the only ACC teams I can think of that ND has played much at all over the past 30 years and they're certainly not as regular as the 3 afformentioned Big Ten schools. (FSU and Miami are no more "regular" opponents than OSU, PSU, or Northwestern are)

 

I didn't say they had to play in MN to get Floyd. And clausen came to ND to play for Weis and no other reason. But yes, playing in CA every year helps recruiting in CA. Playing outside the Midwest helps recruiting outside the Midwest. ND's recruiting pool is shallow compared to most schools, so they need a broader geographic reach. The ACC, esp with Pitt and Cuse, gives ND a broader geographic reach in areas where there is more football talent. Playing in more places and cool games and venues helps recruiting.

 

Beyond BC, ND has relationships with Miami, FSU, UNC, GA Tech, and have played Maryland and Wake now this year. Again, established relationship with Pitt too (and Syracuse to a lesser extent). Outside um, msu, purdue (which is a stupid game that can't end soon enough), and psu, ND doesn't have games with other bigx schools. That's largely due to um's actions like 100 years ago (and many of those schools following suit), but you can't really think there's some sort of grudge there. UM was the one that kept taking ND off its schedule, not vice versa (and said again recently that they will be taking a break from the series after the current contract). They asked ND to join the big 10 and ND declined and now ND is the one holding some weird grudge?

 

Other than ease of travel for the teams, the bigx isn't a great fit. It's not like most ND fans live in SB either. The majority are probably in NYC and DC...what conference will reach those markets better?

[SouthSideRyan]

Why in God's name would the Big Ten want Kansas

 

Basketball superconference? KU, Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State and Wisconsin would make for a ridiculously entertaining league.

 

Flattery will get you nowhere.

 

I'm a way bigger basketball fan than I am football, but the facts are that football is driving the expansion, and adding a football zero like Kansas would likely cost the Big Ten member schools money. Each school added has to add more in revenue with their addition than each school is already making, and while Kansas has their fake fans throughout the country, they're not a strong enough draw to get any sort of market share for BTN subscriptions outside of the 8,000 people that actually live in Kansas. The only reason Missouri is even viable is because of the population of the state, and what it would mean to get all those subscribers at the conference footprint rate.

 

The Pac-12 is playing with fire IMO if they plan on going all in for Texas and taking whatever dregs have to come with them. That's a lot of money Texas and Oklahoma are going to have to make up in order to keep the current teams equal to what they're receiving now...and if Texas looks for special treatment, you're going to have more headaches to deal with that I'm thinking the California schools won't put up with.

[Tarver]

With all this talk about four 16 team superconferences, I decided to try to make a preliminary list based on current rumors and geographical considerations. I'm assuming the Big East and the Big 12 are no more.

 

PAC-16

---------

UCLA

USC

Stanford

Cal

Oregon

Oregon St

Washington

Washington St

Arizona

Arizona St

Utah

Colorado

Texas

Texas Tech

Oklahoma

Oklahoma St

 

 

Big Ten

----------

Minnesota

Wisconsin

Michigan

Michigan St

Illinois

Northwestern

Iowa

Indiana

Purdue

Ohio St

Penn St

Nebraska

Iowa St

Notre Dame

Missouri

Kansas

 

 

SEC

---------

Florida

South Carolina

Alabama

Auburn

Mississippi

Mississippi St

LSU

Tennessee

Kentucky

Vanderbilt

Arkansas

Georgia

Texas A&M

TCU

West Virginia

Louisville

 

 

 

ACC

---------

Boston College

Maryland

Virginia Tech

Virginia

Duke

Wake Forest

North Carolina

NC State

Clemson

Georgia Tech

Miami

Florida St

Syracuse

Pittsburgh

Connecticut

Rutgers

 

 

 

 

Big East - basketball

----------

Georgetown

Villanova

St. Johns

Seton Hall

Marquette

Cincinnati

South Florida

DePaul

Providence

Xavier

Butler

Temple

 

 

Kansas St -> to MWC

Baylor -> to MWC

 

Cincinnati -> back to Conference USA

South Florida -> back to Conference USA

 

I also think the MWC will become the new Big East in terms of football dominance and will be able to get a BCS automatic bid.

 

Where does Memphis basketball fit into that scenario?

[Tracer Bullet]

Why in God's name would the Big Ten want Kansas

 

Basketball superconference? KU, Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State and Wisconsin would make for a ridiculously entertaining league.

 

Flattery will get you nowhere.

 

I'm a way bigger basketball fan than I am football, but the facts are that football is driving the expansion, and adding a football zero like Kansas would likely cost the Big Ten member schools money. Each school added has to add more in revenue with their addition than each school is already making, and while Kansas has their fake fans throughout the country, they're not a strong enough draw to get any sort of market share for BTN subscriptions outside of the 8,000 people that actually live in Kansas. The only reason Missouri is even viable is because of the population of the state, and what it would mean to get all those subscribers at the conference footprint rate.

 

The Pac-12 is playing with fire IMO if they plan on going all in for Texas and taking whatever dregs have to come with them. That's a lot of money Texas and Oklahoma are going to have to make up in order to keep the current teams equal to what they're receiving now...and if Texas looks for special treatment, you're going to have more headaches to deal with that I'm thinking the California schools won't put up with.

 

I agree on Texas and the Pac 12. I don't see how either side likes that deal. Texas can't think southern cal is going to let them move the conference hq's to Austin and run the show from there. Maybe the Pac 12 thinks there's enough $ to make up for the headaches. Either that or it's a panic move.

[SouthSideRyan]

I didn't say they had to play in MN to get Floyd. And clausen came to ND to play for Weis and no other reason. But yes, playing in CA every year helps recruiting in CA. Playing outside the Midwest helps recruiting outside the Midwest. ND's recruiting pool is shallow compared to most schools, so they need a broader geographic reach. The ACC, esp with Pitt and Cuse, gives ND a broader geographic reach in areas where there is more football talent. Playing in more places and cool games and venues helps recruiting.

 

Then why aren't you pushing for SEC if your concern is playing cool games in football hotbeds? I think you're greatly overselling the draw of these games, but it's really just a matter of opinion, so we can't go any farther on it.

 

Beyond BC, ND has relationships with Miami, FSU, UNC, GA Tech, and have played Maryland and Wake now this year. Again, established relationship with Pitt too (and Syracuse to a lesser extent). Outside um, msu, purdue (which is a stupid game that can't end soon enough), and psu, ND doesn't have games with other bigx schools. That's largely due to um's actions like 100 years ago (and many of those schools following suit), but you can't really think there's some sort of grudge there. UM was the one that kept taking ND off its schedule, not vice versa (and said again recently that they will be taking a break from the series after the current contract). They asked ND to join the big 10 and ND declined and now ND is the one holding some weird grudge?

 

I don't have a clue where you're going with that Michigan tangent, but you're really fudging the numbers if you're trying to include all those ACC teams. UNC? What have they played them once in the past 20 years?

 

Other than ease of travel for the teams, the bigx isn't a great fit. It's not like most ND fans live in SB either. The majority are probably in NYC and DC...what conference will reach those markets better?

 

Convenient that joining the Big Ten apparently expands ND's reach to South Bend city limits, but joining the ACC puts them in the heart of DC and NYC (where there are 0 ACC teams) You honestly think there are more ND fans in DC than there are in Chicago? How is Notre Dame going to continue this barn-storming schedule when they have to go play Duke, Clemson, Wake, and Virginia?