Real suggestions to solve the expected OF hole

[Guest]

Even before the Milton suspension, I was hoping for an upgrade in CF next year. I believe that should be a primary focus (along with finding a top of the order bat), but the options are fairly slim. One name that would intrigue me, but would be extremely hard to pry away, would be Nyjer Morgan (before people go on and on about how unrealistic that is, I'm aware of it, but I'm also looking at Nyjer's age and that the Nats are still building ... I believe Rizzo would listen, but it might cost too much to be worth it). Two other names come to mind that have been bandied out there as guys their teams may potentially shop - Curtis Granderson and BJ Upton. Both of these would, to say the least, be costly, even coming off years. Would it be worth it? It obviously depends on who it costs, but one thing to note is that the system is in an in between phase, a phase where value judgments needs to be made. Those are obviously the preferred options. There's probably a couple more that could fit the mix, but in the case of Granderson and Upton, the Cubs would need to find a top of the order bat at another position (namely, MI). I've pondered names like Julio Borbon and Eric Young Jr., but I have a hard time seeing the Cubs go with a youngster in a critical spot to start in 2010. I wouldn't be aghast at a Sam Fuld/Reed Johnson platoon, but I imagine most would be disappointed. Shame Fuld got hurt.

 

If we had to go with Fukudome in CF again, that would mean searching for, likely, a top of the order bat in the MI and a potential middle of the order bat for RF. The problem with that is that it would likely cost us a lot, either in money and talent, and the likelihood is that the org has to clear money to make that happen.

You're going about it backwards. Find a guy who can play a position and hit/get on base and worry about where to bat him later.

 

IMO, the Cubs don't have many options and even less room to maneuver. I think many of us would like to upgrade at SS, the Cubs don't. They aren't doing anything in LF, 3rd, 1st, and C (likely, unless Lou is really pissed at Soto). What does that leave? RF, CF, and 2nd. Fukudome isn't going anywhere, although I would look to trade him first. He's basically a platoon player making full time salary. If they move him to RF his value is significantly diminished. Then the Cubs will have to find a suitable replacement in CF who can both hit and cover a lot of range. If they leave Fukudome in CF they have to find a RF with power. A much easier task, but made significantly more difficult if they have to pay most of Bradley's salary to get him out of Chicago. Then there is 2nd base. I'm guessing Dan Ugla although he's having a terrible year. He's a trade/DFA guy in Florida as he's about to make 8 million.

 

They are in a real bad place for the next few years unless some of the farm hands progress quickly

 

I don't see how I'm going about it backwards by suggesting that, at some point, the Cubs have to find a top of the order bat ... somewhere. Simply amassing talent in of itself wouldn't do any organization or team justice if the pieces don't fit. This isn't some sort of intangibles discussion - it's inherent for any organization to find players to maximize the team's potential, and to not acquire another top of the order bat would be rather flawed by the Cubs.

Batting order doesn't matter.

[toonsterwu]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

 

Why would Baltimore want him? Their OF is set. What they need is a big time slugger. I also don't see MacPhail putting Bradley with his prized youngsters.

 

Of all the teams out there, I still think the Mets are the best fit. I know not many want Luis Castillo (although he's still a decent top of the order bat who runs the bases fairly well for his age), but we likely have to take back a bad deal if we make a trade (along with eating money). Minaya may be desperate enough ... they are talking about adding an OF bat anyways, and they've been rumored to be wanting to go after Orlando Hudson this offseason (not sure why they wouldn't prioritize adding a pitcher first, but that's not my concern).

 

Nothing's ideal ... but that's the one swap that makes the most sense to me out of all the names that have been bandied.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

 

Why would Baltimore want him? Their OF is set. What they need is a big time slugger. I also don't see MacPhail putting Bradley with his prized youngsters.

 

Of all the teams out there, I still think the Mets are the best fit. I know not many want Luis Castillo (although he's still a decent top of the order bat who runs the bases fairly well for his age), but we likely have to take back a bad deal if we make a trade (along with eating money). Minaya may be desperate enough ... they are talking about adding an OF bat anyways, and they've been rumored to be wanting to go after Orlando Hudson this offseason (not sure why they wouldn't prioritize adding a pitcher first, but that's not my concern).

 

Nothing's ideal ... but that's the one swap that makes the most sense to me out of all the names that have been bandied.

 

Bradley for Felix Pie, Rich Hill, and Lou Montanez. Done and done.

[toonsterwu]

Even before the Milton suspension, I was hoping for an upgrade in CF next year. I believe that should be a primary focus (along with finding a top of the order bat), but the options are fairly slim. One name that would intrigue me, but would be extremely hard to pry away, would be Nyjer Morgan (before people go on and on about how unrealistic that is, I'm aware of it, but I'm also looking at Nyjer's age and that the Nats are still building ... I believe Rizzo would listen, but it might cost too much to be worth it). Two other names come to mind that have been bandied out there as guys their teams may potentially shop - Curtis Granderson and BJ Upton. Both of these would, to say the least, be costly, even coming off years. Would it be worth it? It obviously depends on who it costs, but one thing to note is that the system is in an in between phase, a phase where value judgments needs to be made. Those are obviously the preferred options. There's probably a couple more that could fit the mix, but in the case of Granderson and Upton, the Cubs would need to find a top of the order bat at another position (namely, MI). I've pondered names like Julio Borbon and Eric Young Jr., but I have a hard time seeing the Cubs go with a youngster in a critical spot to start in 2010. I wouldn't be aghast at a Sam Fuld/Reed Johnson platoon, but I imagine most would be disappointed. Shame Fuld got hurt.

 

If we had to go with Fukudome in CF again, that would mean searching for, likely, a top of the order bat in the MI and a potential middle of the order bat for RF. The problem with that is that it would likely cost us a lot, either in money and talent, and the likelihood is that the org has to clear money to make that happen.

You're going about it backwards. Find a guy who can play a position and hit/get on base and worry about where to bat him later.

 

IMO, the Cubs don't have many options and even less room to maneuver. I think many of us would like to upgrade at SS, the Cubs don't. They aren't doing anything in LF, 3rd, 1st, and C (likely, unless Lou is really pissed at Soto). What does that leave? RF, CF, and 2nd. Fukudome isn't going anywhere, although I would look to trade him first. He's basically a platoon player making full time salary. If they move him to RF his value is significantly diminished. Then the Cubs will have to find a suitable replacement in CF who can both hit and cover a lot of range. If they leave Fukudome in CF they have to find a RF with power. A much easier task, but made significantly more difficult if they have to pay most of Bradley's salary to get him out of Chicago. Then there is 2nd base. I'm guessing Dan Ugla although he's having a terrible year. He's a trade/DFA guy in Florida as he's about to make 8 million.

 

They are in a real bad place for the next few years unless some of the farm hands progress quickly

 

I don't see how I'm going about it backwards by suggesting that, at some point, the Cubs have to find a top of the order bat ... somewhere. Simply amassing talent in of itself wouldn't do any organization or team justice if the pieces don't fit. This isn't some sort of intangibles discussion - it's inherent for any organization to find players to maximize the team's potential, and to not acquire another top of the order bat would be rather flawed by the Cubs.

Batting order doesn't matter.

 

Getting on base does and that's what I am saying ... so I still don't get your point. Simply using your statement would be flawed

hit/get on base

as it doesn't recognize the degree to which getting on base matters, and that's why I emphasized a top of the order bat. I'm not sure how much simpler I need to spell it out.

[toonsterwu]

They need bats, regardless if they fit into somebody's preconceived notion about what a top of the order bat is.

 

I'm sorry that I didn't recognize that I needed to spell it out, but in saying top of the order bat, I was emphasizing the degree to which said individual gets on base. Again, you look at the Cubs lineup, and one glaring issue this year with the lineup, that is far different from the league average, is a top of the order bat that gets on base. To not acquire a top of the order bat would be failing to maximize the team's potential to succeed next year.

[jersey cubs fan]

They need bats, regardless if they fit into somebody's preconceived notion about what a top of the order bat is.

 

I'm sorry that I didn't recognize that I needed to spell it out, but in saying top of the order bat, I was emphasizing the degree to which said individual gets on base. Again, you look at the Cubs lineup, and one glaring issue this year with the lineup, that is far different from the league average, is a top of the order bat that gets on base. To not acquire a top of the order bat would be failing to maximize the team's potential to succeed next year.

 

Top of the order bats don't necessarily get on base at a high rate. People put bats at the top of the order because they are fast or make lots of contact. Lee and Ramirez get on base a lot, but I don't think anybody would call them top of the order bats.

 

Instead of spellling it out, what you have done is make something overly complicated. Say they need a guy with high OBP.

[toonsterwu]

I know this may not be popular, but it is one of the few trades in which the Cubs would not have to kick any cash into the deal. (Seeing s Rowand's deal is a yr longer then Bradley). I know Rowand isn't great, but he knows Chicago, he plays very well doing to day

 

What does that mean?

 

And why would the Cubs makes matters worse by spending even more money to get even less production? If you are trading Bradley and picking up the tab, you have to get quality back. If you are getting nothing back, you have to get the other team to pay the salary. You can't get crap back + pay more money.

 

That fails to recognize the market. Simply put ... we're probably going to have to eat money to make this trade happen. I know all the metrics, seen them (1.2 WAR right now for MB this year) ... but 2/21 is left on the deal, and when you combine that with the baggage that MB brings, the Cubs just don't have much power. It's a simple power dynamic issue from basic negotiations. Now, you can't prepare for unexpected variables, so maybe there's a team out there that is willing to pay Milton's salary, but a reasonable, educated guess right now is that is a fairly unlikely scenario at this moment in time to expect.

 

This doesn't mean I want Rowand. I don't want that deal. We're better off eating MB's contract completely than taking on a bad deal. It means that expecting another team to pay the tab is probably a bit unlikely. Also, as noted, I don't think the Giants would open a CF hole for themselves to have to address this offseason unless they get something else lined up.

[CubColtPacer]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

 

Oakland works since nobody cares about anything there and he won't be talking to any press.

 

I was mainly looking at it from the angle that he had already played there and they wouldn't want to deal with his [expletive] again, but Beane will probably look at it like it's essentially a free walk-machine, since we're going to eat 80 percent of his contract, anyway.

 

I don't know any details of his time there, but I believe that was the season he was traded to SD for a halfway decent arm. Oakland seems to like bringing guys back there, unless I'm just making that up and Giambi is the only one. I'd bet Beane could look at a chance to get Bradley hitting for half a season and maybe spin him for something more than he dealt away.

 

Oakland didn't just trade him for value though. Bradley was upset about not being guaranteed at-bats when he came off the DL so Oakland simply DFA'd him. Beane had tried to talk to him and apparently didn't like what he heard so the move was made. I'm not sure they'd want any part of him.

 

Now Moore in KC did try to trade for him in 2007 but their medical staff shot it down.

[jersey cubs fan]

Oakland didn't just trade him for value though. Bradley was upset about not being guaranteed at-bats when he came off the DL so Oakland simply DFA'd him. Beane had tried to talk to him and apparently didn't like what he heard so the move was made. I'm not sure they'd want any part of him.

 

Now Moore in KC did try to trade for him in 2007 but their medical staff shot it down.

 

 

Well then I guess that takes Oakland out of the mix, unless Beane does envision a buy low sell high opportunity.

[toonsterwu]

They need bats, regardless if they fit into somebody's preconceived notion about what a top of the order bat is.

 

I'm sorry that I didn't recognize that I needed to spell it out, but in saying top of the order bat, I was emphasizing the degree to which said individual gets on base. Again, you look at the Cubs lineup, and one glaring issue this year with the lineup, that is far different from the league average, is a top of the order bat that gets on base. To not acquire a top of the order bat would be failing to maximize the team's potential to succeed next year.

 

Top of the order bats don't necessarily get on base at a high rate. People put bats at the top of the order because they are fast or make lots of contact. Lee and Ramirez get on base a lot, but I don't think anybody would call them top of the order bats.

 

Instead of spellling it out, what you have done is make something overly complicated. Say they need a guy with high OBP.

 

You are right, I should've qualified in the initial post that we need a top of the order bat with a high enough OBP, but as to the rest of the response, you are making my point for me. Again, what I've emphasized in the last two posts is that you can't simply say OBP in of itself isn't enough to fill the Cubs need because the Cubs need someone at the top of the order. As you note in your example (Lee/Ramirez), simply having a high OBP isn't enough to fill said role, but you oddly limit the response to saying OBP is all we need (last sentence). In that respect, you are making it overly simplistic. Let's take an example to illustrate the point. I think you've acknowledged that we need something ahead of the middle of the order bats. Let's leave that open for now. There's a current smattering of "Let's get Akinori Iwamura" out there on other Cubs sites, with the idea being for him to leadoff. People will point to his capable enough OBP and his past experience leading off (although his OBP leading off was never that good ... .344 if I recall correctly). Is he passable? Sure ... but this is only slightly better than Theriot level passable as a top of the order bat. I wouldn't want Iwamura at the top of the order unless we're in dire circumstances ... like ... this year. He strikes out too much for my tastes at the top of the lineup, and he lifts the ball too much (leaving aside his mediocre defense and his age for now). Making things more complicated shouldn't be a negative in this situation. We need more than simply a high OBP ahead of the middle of the lineup bats.

 

Now ... if you are okay with an Iwamura at the top of the order and find it alright ... then fine, I'm making it more complicated, and I think you are making it too simplistic, and we can leave it at that.

[jersey cubs fan]

They need bats, regardless if they fit into somebody's preconceived notion about what a top of the order bat is.

 

I'm sorry that I didn't recognize that I needed to spell it out, but in saying top of the order bat, I was emphasizing the degree to which said individual gets on base. Again, you look at the Cubs lineup, and one glaring issue this year with the lineup, that is far different from the league average, is a top of the order bat that gets on base. To not acquire a top of the order bat would be failing to maximize the team's potential to succeed next year.

 

Top of the order bats don't necessarily get on base at a high rate. People put bats at the top of the order because they are fast or make lots of contact. Lee and Ramirez get on base a lot, but I don't think anybody would call them top of the order bats.

 

Instead of spellling it out, what you have done is make something overly complicated. Say they need a guy with high OBP.

 

You are right, I should've qualified in the initial post that we need a top of the order bat with a high enough OBP, but as to the rest of the response, you are making my point for me. Again, what I've emphasized in the last two posts is that you can't simply say OBP in of itself isn't enough to fill the Cubs need because the Cubs need someone at the top of the order. As you note in your example (Lee/Ramirez), simply having a high OBP isn't enough to fill said role, but you oddly limit the response to saying OBP is all we need (last sentence). In that respect, you are making it overly simplistic. Let's take an example to illustrate the point. I think you've acknowledged that we need something ahead of the middle of the order bats. Let's leave that open for now. There's a current smattering of "Let's get Akinori Iwamura" out there on other Cubs sites, with the idea being for him to leadoff. People will point to his capable enough OBP and his past experience leading off (although his OBP leading off was never that good ... .344 if I recall correctly). Is he passable? Sure ... but this is only slightly better than Theriot level passable as a top of the order bat. I wouldn't want Iwamura at the top of the order unless we're in dire circumstances ... like ... this year. He strikes out too much for my tastes at the top of the lineup, and he lifts the ball too much (leaving aside his mediocre defense and his age for now). Making things more complicated shouldn't be a negative in this situation. We need more than simply a high OBP ahead of the middle of the lineup bats.

 

Now ... if you are okay with an Iwamura at the top of the order and find it alright ... then fine, I'm making it more complicated, and I think you are making it too simplistic, and we can leave it at that.

 

 

 

You are not making any sense.

[Rob]

Batting order doesn't matter.

 

That's not really true.

 

But the idea of acquiring a top of the order hitter is working backwards. Find the best 8 hitters you can, and then tweak the batting order to maximize value.

[Rob]

And to the idea that speed somehow better suits a player to the top of the order, that's backwards as well. Stolen bases are actually better utilized at the bottom of a lineup, where the batters are less likely to hit for extra bases.

[Backtobanks]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

 

Why would Baltimore want him? Their OF is set. What they need is a big time slugger. I also don't see MacPhail putting Bradley with his prized youngsters.

 

Of all the teams out there, I still think the Mets are the best fit. I know not many want Luis Castillo (although he's still a decent top of the order bat who runs the bases fairly well for his age), but we likely have to take back a bad deal if we make a trade (along with eating money). Minaya may be desperate enough ... they are talking about adding an OF bat anyways, and they've been rumored to be wanting to go after Orlando Hudson this offseason (not sure why they wouldn't prioritize adding a pitcher first, but that's not my concern).

 

Nothing's ideal ... but that's the one swap that makes the most sense to me out of all the names that have been bandied.

 

Castillo would be a bad contract fit for the Cubs and the Mets could use an OF, but Bradley in NY with their fans and media would certainly be a problem. Maybe Ghandi-like Jerry Manuel could calm Bradley down.

[A-Cal]

i would love to see felix pie back with the cubs, but i just don't see how it happens

[biittner77]

Batting order doesn't matter.

 

That's not really true.

 

But the idea of acquiring a top of the order hitter is working backwards. Find the best 8 hitters you can, and then tweak the batting order to maximize value.

 

Somebody needs to tell this to Hendry and piniella. They are the ones that think they need a LH bat in the 5 hole and a 1-2 hitter that can play 2nd base.

[Keener98]

I seen it on mlbtraderumors the other day but I cant find it now, but they are saying Tampa is sold on Desmond Jennings, and will entertain offers for Crawford or Upton. I know it would take alot for either, but they would be at the top of my wishlist.

[NCCubFan]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

The Reds owe the Cubs a favor for drafting and trading Josh Hamilton. Time to call that favor in. :D

[Eric Clipperton]

And to the idea that speed somehow better suits a player to the top of the order, that's backwards as well. Stolen bases are actually better utilized at the bottom of a lineup, where the batters are less likely to hit for extra bases.

 

Very true and yet another reason why I believe NSBB would manage the team better than the current front office.

 

Also I wish the Cubs, if they must abide by their quest for speed, would manage to break the trend of somehow getting a speed guy who is not even a good defensive player. I expect no less than CHONE at 2nd and Pierre in CF though. This offseason is likely to be HILARIOUS in the message board world.

[SouthSideRyan]

I can't believe we'd go back to the Pierre well. I just can't.

[circlecitycub]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

The Reds owe the Cubs a favor for drafting and trading Josh Hamilton. Time to call that favor in. :D

 

If Dusty is still around that might not be a bad idea. Milton and Dusty would be a match made in heaven.

[Sammy Sofa]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

The Reds owe the Cubs a favor for drafting and trading Josh Hamilton. Time to call that favor in. :D

 

If Dusty is still around that might not be a bad idea. Milton and Dusty would be a match made in heaven.

 

The Cubs apparently were interested in signing Milton prior to the 2006 season and Dusty and Milton met and apparently that didn't go well.

[jersey cubs fan]

Is there any chance that Bradley isn't traded to Baltimore?

 

I imagine Hendry's gonna have to call in a favor to get rid of Bradley, and Florida and Oakland don't seem like good destinations for Milton.

The Reds owe the Cubs a favor for drafting and trading Josh Hamilton. Time to call that favor in. :D

 

If Dusty is still around that might not be a bad idea. Milton and Dusty would be a match made in heaven.

 

The Cubs apparently were interested in signing Milton prior to the 2006 season and Dusty and Milton met and apparently that didn't go well.

 

If they eat much of Milton's contract, and acquire somebody else to fill an OF spot and/or middle infield, I don't see anyway they bring Harden back. I think they think they can get by with the current staff minus Harden.

[jersey cubs fan]

The results were positive but in my first look at Colvin, and in my completely untrained eye, he looks to have a long loopy swing that requires a lot of effort to make relatively minimal impact on contact.

[Little Slide Rooter]

And to the idea that speed somehow better suits a player to the top of the order, that's backwards as well. Stolen bases are actually better utilized at the bottom of a lineup, where the batters are less likely to hit for extra bases.

 

Very true and yet another reason why I believe NSBB would manage the team better than the current front office.

 

Also I wish the Cubs, if they must abide by their quest for speed, would manage to break the trend of somehow getting a speed guy who is not even a good defensive player. I expect no less than CHONE at 2nd and Pierre in CF though. This offseason is likely to be HILARIOUS in the message board world.

 

Im thinking Placido Polanco and Scotty Pods. Polanco will put up Ryan Theriot like numbers and be way over paid for it, and Pods will play 13 games and his stat line wont be unlike that of Ryan Freel..