2009 Arizona Fall League

[Outshined_One]

What do we see Vitters' upside as being?

 

Ryan Braun is a good (realistic) "best case" scenario for Vitters.

 

Hits for a high average with very good power. What little patience he has comes from his power and pitchers fearing him, not from good strike zone judgement or willingness to work deep counts.

 

Poor defender at 3B, will have to move to LF or 1B.

 

Wouldn't a best case scenario for Vitters involve him becoming an above average defender at 3B?

[JeffH]

What do we see Vitters' upside as being?

 

Ryan Braun is a good (realistic) "best case" scenario for Vitters.

 

Hits for a high average with very good power. What little patience he has comes from his power and pitchers fearing him, not from good strike zone judgement or willingness to work deep counts.

 

Poor defender at 3B, will have to move to LF or 1B.

 

Wouldn't a best case scenario for Vitters involve him becoming an above average defender at 3B?

 

Yes, but I don't consider that realistic.

[biittner77]

What do we see Vitters' upside as being?

 

Ryan Braun is a good (realistic) "best case" scenario for Vitters.

 

Hits for a high average with very good power. What little patience he has comes from his power and pitchers fearing him, not from good strike zone judgement or willingness to work deep counts.

 

Poor defender at 3B, will have to move to LF or 1B.

 

Wouldn't a best case scenario for Vitters involve him becoming an above average defender at 3B?

 

Yes, but I don't consider that realistic.

 

If I had to pick I'd say Vitters has a better chance of being an average defender than hitting for Braun-like power.

[Sever82]

Just a hypothetical question but if the bluejays came to the cubs and said they were willing to trade Halladay for Wells, Vitters, Castro and Fuld, would you guys pull the trigger? I feel that as old as the cubs are getting and as depleted as their farm system is, they should hold onto whatever top prospects they have regardless of whether there's a chance those prospects wont blossom.

[CUBZ99]

Just a hypothetical question but if the bluejays came to the cubs and said they were willing to trade Halladay for Wells, Vitters, Castro and Fuld, would you guys pull the trigger? I feel that as old as the cubs are getting and as depleted as their farm system is, they should hold onto whatever top prospects they have regardless of whether there's a chance those prospects wont blossom.

 

I would make the deal, if the Cubs were able to ensure that Halladay was locked up for 4 or 5 years.

[Outshined_One]

Just a hypothetical question but if the bluejays came to the cubs and said they were willing to trade Halladay for Wells, Vitters, Castro and Fuld, would you guys pull the trigger? I feel that as old as the cubs are getting and as depleted as their farm system is, they should hold onto whatever top prospects they have regardless of whether there's a chance those prospects wont blossom.

 

I would not do it for three reasons:

 

1) He'll turn 33 in May of next season

2) He'd only be a one year rental

3) If he agrees to an extension, he won't come cheap

 

This team's payroll flexibility leaves a lot to be desired; extending Halladay would most likely restrict the Cubs in future offseasons. I would normally be fine with that with a pitcher of Halladay's caliber, but considering he's on the wrong side of 30, I worry about injuries and a decline in velocity and stuff. Moreover, if he does not sign an extension, that is a steep price to pay for a one year rental.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Just a hypothetical question but if the bluejays came to the cubs and said they were willing to trade Halladay for Wells, Vitters, Castro and Fuld, would you guys pull the trigger? I feel that as old as the cubs are getting and as depleted as their farm system is, they should hold onto whatever top prospects they have regardless of whether there's a chance those prospects wont blossom.

 

I would not do it for three reasons:

 

1) He'll turn 33 in May of next season

2) He'd only be a one year rental

3) If he agrees to an extension, he won't come cheap

 

This team's payroll flexibility leaves a lot to be desired; extending Halladay would most likely restrict the Cubs in future offseasons. I would normally be fine with that with a pitcher of Halladay's caliber, but considering he's on the wrong side of 30, I worry about injuries and a decline in velocity and stuff. Moreover, if he does not sign an extension, that is a steep price to pay for a one year rental.

 

Considering the madness they wanted in return for Halladay at the deadline, it would be more like Vitters, Castro, Jackson, and Cashner.

[davell]

Yeah, as much as I'd love to add a player of Halladay's caliber, with our current payroll issues(possibly anyway, depending on what Ricketts wants to do) I wouldn't make the deal. We are definitely going to need some of these youngsters to fill into our everyday lineup soon and considering both Castro and Vitters at least have all star POTENTIAL, the risk of a move like that is too great, if you ask me, epsecially considering Halladay's age. I would rather see us get younger.

[Guest]

We're talking like beehive loud

 

Starlin Castro, SS, Cubs (AFL: Mesa)

Yesterday's stats: 4-for-5, 2 R, RBI

 

Generating a ton of buzz right now in the desert is Castro, the 19-year-old shortstop who, after Tuesday's outburst, is now 12-for-23 in six games for the Solar Sox without a strikeout. His ability to put the bat on the ball is remarkably advanced for his age. While he's not the next Ozzie Smith, he is a true shortstop who also has surprisingly solid defensive fundamentals for such a young talent, as he's also yet to make an error in Arizona. Is he the top prospect in the system? You could at least make the argument.

 

and

 

Others of Note

 

Donald Veal, LHP, Pirates (AFL), 3 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 0 BB, 2 K: If he keeps throwing strikes, he could end up being a Rule 5 steal, as the size and stuff were always there.

[Sever82]

We're talking like beehive loud

 

Starlin Castro, SS, Cubs (AFL: Mesa)

Yesterday's stats: 4-for-5, 2 R, RBI

 

Generating a ton of buzz right now in the desert is Castro, the 19-year-old shortstop who, after Tuesday's outburst, is now 12-for-23 in six games for the Solar Sox without a strikeout. His ability to put the bat on the ball is remarkably advanced for his age. While he's not the next Ozzie Smith, he is a true shortstop who also has surprisingly solid defensive fundamentals for such a young talent, as he's also yet to make an error in Arizona. Is he the top prospect in the system? You could at least make the argument.

 

and

 

Others of Note

 

Donald Veal, LHP, Pirates (AFL), 3 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 0 BB, 2 K: If he keeps throwing strikes, he could end up being a Rule 5 steal, as the size and stuff were always there.

 

According to Jim Calls on his ESPN chat, he feels Veal is still a strong lefty reliever at best. Doesn't see him projecting as a starter because of his lack of control, doesn't think he'll ever get that solved.

[Cubswin11]

I really hope the Cubs don't [expletive] up Castro like they did with Patterson and Pie. What I mean by that is taking a guy who has shown advanced ability in the minors but rushed him at a young age, had little patience with him at the MLB level, jerked him around between the bench/starting lineup the minors/majors, and never letting him settle in the minors and take some lumps there and work on things down there before moving him up and then changing his approach at the major league level.

[CubColtPacer]

I really hope the Cubs don't [expletive] up Castro like they did with Patterson and Pie. What I mean by that is taking a guy who has shown advanced ability in the minors but rushed him at a young age, had little patience with him at the MLB level, jerked him around between the bench/starting lineup the minors/majors, and never letting him settle in the minors and take some lumps there and work on things down there before moving him up and then changing his approach at the major league level.

 

I really don't see the comparison between Patterson and Pie in how the Cubs handled them. Patterson was rushed but then given plenty of consistent at-bats in the majors (after a small period of riding the bench). He had the misfortune of both the injury and coaching turnover and different coaches had different ideas about what type of player he was.

 

I really don't see how Pie was rushed. He spent the half season in rookie ball, a full year in Peoria, a full year in Daytona, a full year in Tennessee, a full year in Iowa, and then started the next year in Iowa before being called up. He had at least moderate success and sometimes great success at each level before being moved up. It's hard to say what was the exact thing that caused the Cubs to fail with him. Some would say it was the inconsistent playing time at the major league level, and others would say that they ignored his swing issues because he was so productive at the minor league level and then they had to ship him off because it would take too long to fix.

 

Patterson hit the major leagues at 20-21 (I don't remember what date he came up) in his 2nd professional season.

Pie hit the major league level at 22 in his 6th professional season.

 

Castro if he followed the Pie path wouldn't see the major leagues until 2012 or 2013. I don't think anybody would think he was rushed if he hit the major leagues at that time.

 

I think the only Patterson/Pie comparisons that can be made were that mistakes were made with both of them..but they were very different types of mistakes.

[SouthSideRyan]

I am concerned that they'll never try and develop any power from Castro, cause after all he's a SS, and shortstops back in my day didn't hit no damn home runs, they bunted, and went the other way and played the game the right way.

[Guest]

I am concerned that they'll never try and develop any power from Castro, cause after all he's a SS, and shortstops back in my day didn't hit no damn home runs, they bunted, and went the other way and played the game the right way.

Jaramillo emphasizes a power stroke.

[soonercub]

I don't think Patterson and Pie were rushed. They had ample time in the minors and had success, but when players reach the majors they get pitched based on scouting reports. That doesn't occur much in the minors. The scouts found holes in their swings and the pitchers pitched to them. Unfortunately Pie and Patterson could not make the adjustment. Great tools, just not great hitters.

 

Castro seems to have a chance to have more success than the other two. Two things good hitters consistently due is square the ball and stay inside it. I hear those things a lot about Castro. He seems to let the ball travel deep in the hitting zone. Appears many of his hits are up the middle and a little to the opposite field.

 

My comparison in he will be a lot like Jeter. He will get a lot of hits to the right side. Seems he has a chance to develop some pop maybe in the 10-20 range. I would take having a young Jeter playing short for the Cubs in 2 years and playing there for many years after that.

[TruffleShuffle]

vitters is batting 5th for mesa tonight and hit a 2-run double to deep left on a 1-1 pitch. welington is hitting 6th and hit a sharp ground ball single to 1b in his first ab. castro is not playing :(

[A-Cal]

castro and jeter comparisons!

 

:beg:

[Ryno12]

Vitters 3/4 now. Also, I wish Casey Kelly would realize his future is as a P and not at SS, so he would stop taking ABs from Starlin.

[NCCubFan]

I don't think Patterson and Pie were rushed.

Patterson was rushed beyond any dispute whatsoever. He was called up in 2001 after only about 2 1/2 seasons in the minors because the Cubs were unexpected contenders in 2001 and Don Baylor wanted him as a pinch runner because of his speed.

[SouthSideRyan]

I am concerned that they'll never try and develop any power from Castro, cause after all he's a SS, and shortstops back in my day didn't hit no damn home runs, they bunted, and went the other way and played the game the right way.

Jaramillo emphasizes a power stroke.

 

I know it's irrational, but I'm sick of seeing guys being pigeonholed as Vince Coleman because they're fast.

[Outshined_One]

Lost in the Castro hype is the fact that Vitters is doing pretty darn well for himself at the plate, with a .400/.429/.500 line. The three errors hurt, but for a guy who struggled after being promoted to the FSL, he's doing a pretty good job in the AFL so far.

[Serge]

Lost in the Castro hype is the fact that Vitters is doing pretty darn well for himself at the plate, with a .400/.429/.500 line. The three errors hurt, but for a guy who struggled after being promoted to the FSL, he's doing a pretty good job in the AFL so far.

 

Yeah, the AFL is roughly AA caliber, so Vitters doing well is very encouraging. Although obviously you'd really like to see some more walks.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I am concerned that they'll never try and develop any power from Castro, cause after all he's a SS, and shortstops back in my day didn't hit no damn home runs, they bunted, and went the other way and played the game the right way.

Jaramillo emphasizes a power stroke.

 

I know it's irrational, but I'm sick of seeing guys being pigeonholed as Vince Coleman because they're fast.

 

I hear ya. Everytime a new "5 tool" player steps on the scene, they're the next Rickey Henderson. Doesnt usually pan out that way.

[sweetpeteman]

I don't think Patterson and Pie were rushed. They had ample time in the minors and had success, but when players reach the majors they get pitched based on scouting reports. That doesn't occur much in the minors. The scouts found holes in their swings and the pitchers pitched to them. Unfortunately Pie and Patterson could not make the adjustment. Great tools, just not great hitters.

 

Castro seems to have a chance to have more success than the other two. Two things good hitters consistently due is square the ball and stay inside it. I hear those things a lot about Castro. He seems to let the ball travel deep in the hitting zone. Appears many of his hits are up the middle and a little to the opposite field.

 

My comparison in he will be a lot like Jeter. He will get a lot of hits to the right side. Seems he has a chance to develop some pop maybe in the 10-20 range. I would take having a young Jeter playing short for the Cubs in 2 years and playing there for many years after that.

 

 

Pie might not have been rushed, but Patterson was.

 

 

Pie also is starting to show success after being allowed his normal pattern.

[Halman]

I really hope the Cubs don't [expletive] up Castro like they did with Patterson and Pie. What I mean by that is taking a guy who has shown advanced ability in the minors but rushed him at a young age, had little patience with him at the MLB level, jerked him around between the bench/starting lineup the minors/majors, and never letting him settle in the minors and take some lumps there and work on things down there before moving him up and then changing his approach at the major league level.

 

which is why I guarantee they will screw him up. Darwin Barney is probably the future at SS.