Halladay all but gone from Toronto (or not)

[Little Slide Rooter]

There isn't a team giving up a top 5 prospect that's all ready semi established in the majors at 22, plus another top 50 prospect for a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good he is. You dudes are ODing right now. I'm not sure what the Blujays want but if its all of that, they are delusional.

 

I highly doubt the Cards will have to add Rasmus to get Halladay.

 

A deal centered around Wallace could get it done, or one centered around Wainwright.

 

You dont get it, they dont need to trade him. Its not about money. Its not about a fire sale. Its about the Jays wanting to stock themselves with these top prospects in hopes of being able to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox in the future, and Halladay is the tool to get it done.

[nolanwood]

There isn't a team giving up a top 5 prospect that's all ready semi established in the majors at 22, plus another top 50 prospect for a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good he is. You dudes are ODing right now. I'm not sure what the Blujays want but if its all of that, they are delusional.

 

I highly doubt the Cards will have to add Rasmus to get Halladay.

 

A deal centered around Wallace could get it done, or one centered around Wainwright.

 

I don't recall seeing more than one rating system that had Rasmus as a top 5 prospect for 2009... The Blue Jays can ask for whatever they want being as they don't have to trade him, regardless of whether some Cardinal fan thinks they are delusional.

[RedVerbs]

There isn't a team giving up a top 5 prospect that's all ready semi established in the majors at 22, plus another top 50 prospect for a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good he is. You dudes are ODing right now. I'm not sure what the Blujays want but if its all of that, they are delusional.

 

I highly doubt the Cards will have to add Rasmus to get Halladay.

 

A deal centered around Wallace could get it done, or one centered around Wainwright.

 

I don't recall seeing more than one rating system that had Rasmus as a top 5 prospect for 2009... The Blue Jays can ask for whatever they want being as they don't have to trade him, regardless of whether some Cardinal fan thinks they are delusional.

 

Baseball America ranked him number 3 behind Wieter and David Price.

 

Who said they had to trade him? All I said is if they think they are getting a Rasmus/Wallace for him, they are delusional. That isn't going to happen. No team is doing that or even come close to giving that. That would be silly.

[RedVerbs]

There isn't a team giving up a top 5 prospect that's all ready semi established in the majors at 22, plus another top 50 prospect for a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good he is. You dudes are ODing right now. I'm not sure what the Blujays want but if its all of that, they are delusional.

 

I highly doubt the Cards will have to add Rasmus to get Halladay.

 

A deal centered around Wallace could get it done, or one centered around Wainwright.

 

You dont get it, they dont need to trade him. Its not about money. Its not about a fire sale. Its about the Jays wanting to stock themselves with these top prospects in hopes of being able to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox in the future, and Halladay is the tool to get it done.

 

No I "get it". I never mentioned money once, I know exactly what it's about. I understand how great Halladay is, but he is a 32 year old pitcher, who has a lot of innings on his arm. Plus, you're only gonna have him for a year and a few months. I see them getting more of 1 great hitting or pitching prospect, and about 4 other "good-middling" prospects, then them getting a top 5 prospect, and another top 50 prospect. Teams nowadays do not just give up their best prospects like that. I know the circumstances are different, but Santana went to the Mets, and they gave the Twins crap, and Santana is better than Halladay.

Edited July 10, 2009 by RedVerbs

[Backtobanks]

Saw a headline on ESPN that Wells would be part of the deal. It was an insider story. Anybody able to read it?

Does this change the likely teams>

 

If true, moneterily, the only NL teams I could see swinging it are the Phillies, Mets, and maybe the Dodgers. Wells contract is a mess and a half and I cant see the Cards or Brewers having the finances for it.

 

Pretty much. If taking Wells is a condition for getting Halladay, the Cards and Crew can just forget it. Wells' contract is massively back loaded. Vernon just isn't that good, and that contract could really cripple a mid/small market teams financial flexibility.

 

Asking a team to take that on might be asking too much, IMO.

 

 

I'm sure Wells won't be a condition to a Halladay deal simply because you've now made Halladay's trade value diminish immensely. No team is going to take on an extra

$100 million for 1 1/2 years of Halladay. The only way this would work is for the Jays to take back a bad contract (less than Wells) and get prospects, which would be pointless. There would be a better chance if they made Rios a condition in a Halladay deal, but it still wouldn't be very likely.

 

Keep in mind, the Jays dont need to deal Halladay, but they're taking offers. They know a lot of the interested parties, such as Angels, Dodgers, Mets, and Phillies have money to spare. This might make the injury depleted Mets a pretty good fit, not only would they have the best 1-2 pitching combo since Maddux and Glavine but they also get an outfielder who might be able to refind himself on a new team.

 

Even the desperate Mets wouldn't be crazy enough to take Wells with Halladay. They already have hundreds of millions of dollars tied up in future years to Rodriguez, Beltran, Perez, Wright, Castillo, Reyes, and Santana. Most of those contracts are terrible already and paying another $100 million for an aging, rapidly-declining OF just to acquire 1 1/2 years of Halladay is ridiculous.

[nolanwood]

There isn't a team giving up a top 5 prospect that's all ready semi established in the majors at 22, plus another top 50 prospect for a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good he is. You dudes are ODing right now. I'm not sure what the Blujays want but if its all of that, they are delusional.

 

I highly doubt the Cards will have to add Rasmus to get Halladay.

 

A deal centered around Wallace could get it done, or one centered around Wainwright.

 

I don't recall seeing more than one rating system that had Rasmus as a top 5 prospect for 2009... The Blue Jays can ask for whatever they want being as they don't have to trade him, regardless of whether some Cardinal fan thinks they are delusional.

 

Baseball America ranked him number 3 behind Wieter and David Price.

 

Who said they had to trade him? All I said is if they think they are getting a Rasmus/Wallace for him, they are delusional. That isn't going to happen. No team is doing that or even come close to giving that. That would be silly.

 

Baseball America would constitute as one rating system, not more than one...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3840355

http://mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/prospects/y2009/

http://thebaseballgods.blogspot.com/2008/12/2009-top-100-prospects-rankings-only.html (local STL homer)

http://www.topprospectalert.com/

http://fantasybaseball365.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/hot-prospect-corner-mlbcoms-top-25-rookies-for-fantasy-2009/

 

Furthermore, even many in the STL area viewed the Baseball America ranking of Rasmus at #3 a joke given the off year in 2008 (and yes, I live in STL and know all about the injuries, etc).

 

That is all beside the point. Here's a recent writeup ( http://scoutingthesports.com/?cat=3) discussing what the Angels would possibly need to give up to acquire Doc:

 

Manager Mike Scioscia said Tuesday, referring to Angels General Manager Tony Reagins. “Obviously, [Halladay] is a name that piques the interest of everyone in baseball.” A deal for Halladay would probably cost the Angels pitcher Jered Weaver, a top pitching prospect such as Trevor Reckling or Jordan Walden, top hitting prospect Brandon Wood and a young big leaguer such as Erick Aybar or Howie Kendrick.

 

Who's "OD'ing" on the kool aid?

Edited July 10, 2009 by nolanwood

[RedVerbs]

There isn't a team giving up a top 5 prospect that's all ready semi established in the majors at 22, plus another top 50 prospect for a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good he is. You dudes are ODing right now. I'm not sure what the Blujays want but if its all of that, they are delusional.

 

I highly doubt the Cards will have to add Rasmus to get Halladay.

 

A deal centered around Wallace could get it done, or one centered around Wainwright.

 

I don't recall seeing more than one rating system that had Rasmus as a top 5 prospect for 2009... The Blue Jays can ask for whatever they want being as they don't have to trade him, regardless of whether some Cardinal fan thinks they are delusional.

 

Baseball America ranked him number 3 behind Wieter and David Price.

 

Who said they had to trade him? All I said is if they think they are getting a Rasmus/Wallace for him, they are delusional. That isn't going to happen. No team is doing that or even come close to giving that. That would be silly.

 

Baseball America would constitute as one rating system, not more than one...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3840355

http://mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/prospects/y2009/

http://thebaseballgods.blogspot.com/2008/12/2009-top-100-prospects-rankings-only.html (local STL homer)

http://www.topprospectalert.com/

http://fantasybaseball365.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/hot-prospect-corner-mlbcoms-top-25-rookies-for-fantasy-2009/

 

Furthermore, even many in the STL area viewed the Baseball America ranking of Rasmus at #3 a joke given the off year in 2008 (and yes, I live in STL and know all about the injuries, etc).

 

That is all beside the point. Here's a recent writeup ( http://scoutingthesports.com/?cat=3) discussing what the Angels would possibly need to give up to acquire Doc:

 

Manager Mike Scioscia said Tuesday, referring to Angels General Manager Tony Reagins. “Obviously, [Halladay] is a name that piques the interest of everyone in baseball.” A deal for Halladay would probably cost the Angels pitcher Jered Weaver, a top pitching prospect such as Trevor Reckling or Jordan Walden, top hitting prospect Brandon Wood and a young big leaguer such as Erick Aybar or Howie Kendrick.

 

Who's "OD'ing" on the kool aid?

 

So, you think those other ranking systems hold the weight of Baseball America? LOL.

 

Only two serious ones are Baseball America or Baseball Prospectus (Who ranked him 8th), the others are not ones I take seriously, nor do most people who don't have an agenda. And prospect rankings of him before the season aren't really relevant as the fact he has been the Rookie of the Year in the NL in 2009 so far, which you like to ignore. Being a top 10 in some random Joe Schmoes preseason rankings, does not match up with being a top 5-10 in the two most respected/established ranking and actually PERFORMING in the Majors.

[nolanwood]

There isn't a team giving up a top 5 prospect that's all ready semi established in the majors at 22, plus another top 50 prospect for a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good he is. You dudes are ODing right now. I'm not sure what the Blujays want but if its all of that, they are delusional.

 

I highly doubt the Cards will have to add Rasmus to get Halladay.

 

A deal centered around Wallace could get it done, or one centered around Wainwright.

 

I don't recall seeing more than one rating system that had Rasmus as a top 5 prospect for 2009... The Blue Jays can ask for whatever they want being as they don't have to trade him, regardless of whether some Cardinal fan thinks they are delusional.

 

Baseball America ranked him number 3 behind Wieter and David Price.

 

Who said they had to trade him? All I said is if they think they are getting a Rasmus/Wallace for him, they are delusional. That isn't going to happen. No team is doing that or even come close to giving that. That would be silly.

 

Baseball America would constitute as one rating system, not more than one...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3840355

http://mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/prospects/y2009/

http://thebaseballgods.blogspot.com/2008/12/2009-top-100-prospects-rankings-only.html (local STL homer)

http://www.topprospectalert.com/

http://fantasybaseball365.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/hot-prospect-corner-mlbcoms-top-25-rookies-for-fantasy-2009/

 

Furthermore, even many in the STL area viewed the Baseball America ranking of Rasmus at #3 a joke given the off year in 2008 (and yes, I live in STL and know all about the injuries, etc).

 

That is all beside the point. Here's a recent writeup ( http://scoutingthesports.com/?cat=3) discussing what the Angels would possibly need to give up to acquire Doc:

 

Manager Mike Scioscia said Tuesday, referring to Angels General Manager Tony Reagins. “Obviously, [Halladay] is a name that piques the interest of everyone in baseball.” A deal for Halladay would probably cost the Angels pitcher Jered Weaver, a top pitching prospect such as Trevor Reckling or Jordan Walden, top hitting prospect Brandon Wood and a young big leaguer such as Erick Aybar or Howie Kendrick.

 

Who's "OD'ing" on the kool aid?

 

So, you think those other ranking systems hold the weight of Baseball America? LOL.

 

Only two serious ones are Baseball America or Baseball Prospectus (Who ranked him 8th), the others are not ones I take seriously, nor do most people who don't have an agenda. And prospect rankings of him before the season aren't really relevant as the fact he has been the Rookie of the Year in the NL in 2009 so far, which you like to ignore. Being a top 10 in some random Joe Schmoes preseason rankings, does not match up with being a top 5-10 in the two most respected/established ranking and actually PERFORMING in the Majors.

 

 

Why didn't you address the package suggested that the Angels would be giving up and compare how that is equal to what you proposed? Who said I ignored he is the potential ROY? How old are you? Could we please refrain from the use of "LOL"?

[SouthSideRyan]

[

No I "get it".

 

This is usually false.

[RedVerbs]

We're both just speculating on what the package being offered can or will be, no team has even offered a deal yet to any of our knowledge, so these are just cold guesses. His assumption is that it would take all of that. And I've read assumptions were it wouldn't even come close to that to get Halladay. We'll only know what the truth if/when Halladay is traded. If he happens to be right, then I misread Halladay's trade value, simple as that. I still don't see how it would take all of that to trade for a pitcher that'll only be your property for 1 full season and 2-3 months.

[Clem Fandango]

Part of me thinks/knows a team will have to give up a truckload of great players to land him... but then I think about the Santana deal and just how little the Mets had to give up to land him, and he's arguably the best pitcher in baseball.

 

Perhaps Halladay will want an extension like Santana did in order to waive his NTC? I don't know. Fact is, he's going to cost a king's ransom, and looking at that speculative Angels proposal, I think they're one of the few teams in the majors, maybe the only team, that can dole up the players needed to acquire him, unless they go the Minnesota route and take one or two top prospects and some mid-top tier throw ins. Which in that case would make him affordable for many teams.

[Guest]

Brandon Wood is still their top hitting prospect?

 

Damn. Is that some sort of record at this point?

[badnews]

I don't think Halladay has as much trade value as some have said.

 

Besides I thought C. C. Sabathia, Johan Santana, and Jake Peavy were all the best pitchers in baseball? Whoever is available for trade.

 

Santana didn't cost that much to get. Philip Humber was dead to baseball when he was at Rice. Carlos Gomez is the rich man's Joey Gathright. Or the younger, suckier version of Nook Logan. Or something.

[Clem Fandango]

I don't think Halladay has as much trade value as some have said.

 

If he says he doesn't want an extension his value becomes really high. Santana would only agree to a trade if there was an extension in place, Halladay still has one year at $15 mil on his contract. In this market that's pretty reasonable for a pitcher of his quality. There's lots of pitchers making more than that who aren't even close ot the caliber that Roy Halladay is.

 

But if he demands an extension his price is not just going to be the $15 mil next year, but probably $18 mil+ for the next 4-5 years minimum I would assume. That's when you start giviing up one prospect and some toss ins like the Santana deal. otherwise, that speculated Angels offer is probably the kind of level teams would need to go to get him

[apete6]

I don't think Halladay has as much trade value as some have said.

 

If he says he doesn't want an extension his value becomes really high. Santana would only agree to a trade if there was an extension in place, Halladay still has one year at $15 mil on his contract. In this market that's pretty reasonable for a pitcher of his quality. There's lots of pitchers making more than that who aren't even close ot the caliber that Roy Halladay is.

 

But if he demands an extension his price is not just going to be the $15 mil next year, but probably $18 mil+ for the next 4-5 years minimum I would assume. That's when you start giviing up one prospect and some toss ins like the Santana deal. otherwise, that speculated Angels offer is probably the kind of level teams would need to go to get him

 

I don't know, man. Halladay has been absolute money for about 5-7 years now. If he played in Chicago or NY, the Hall of Fame bust would already be carved.

 

Legitimately, he should get Rasmus and Wallace from the Cards, at a minimum.

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't think Halladay has as much trade value as some have said.

 

Besides I thought C. C. Sabathia, Johan Santana, and Jake Peavy were all the best pitchers in baseball? Whoever is available for trade.

 

Santana didn't cost that much to get. Philip Humber was dead to baseball when he was at Rice. Carlos Gomez is the rich man's Joey Gathright. Or the younger, suckier version of Nook Logan. Or something.

 

Santana would only go to 2 teams. And it's not Toronto's fault that some idiot in the Twins organization thought Carols Gomez wasn't flaming ass.

[RedVerbs]

I don't think Halladay has as much trade value as some have said.

 

If he says he doesn't want an extension his value becomes really high. Santana would only agree to a trade if there was an extension in place, Halladay still has one year at $15 mil on his contract. In this market that's pretty reasonable for a pitcher of his quality. There's lots of pitchers making more than that who aren't even close ot the caliber that Roy Halladay is.

 

But if he demands an extension his price is not just going to be the $15 mil next year, but probably $18 mil+ for the next 4-5 years minimum I would assume. That's when you start giviing up one prospect and some toss ins like the Santana deal. otherwise, that speculated Angels offer is probably the kind of level teams would need to go to get him

 

I don't know, man. Halladay has been absolute money for about 5-7 years now. If he played in Chicago or NY, the Hall of Fame bust would already be carved.

 

Legitimately, he should get Rasmus and Wallace from the Cards, at a minimum.

 

Even if he doesn't come to the Cardinals, I'd like to see him traded to a playoff team, just so he can pitch in the playoffs for the first time. It would be unfortunate if the best or second best pitcher of his generation did not pitch in at least one post season game.

[Guest]

One would hope/assume the Blue Jays aren't as dumb as the Twins were.

[shnsajax]

I don't think Halladay has as much trade value as some have said.

 

Besides I thought C. C. Sabathia, Johan Santana, and Jake Peavy were all the best pitchers in baseball? Whoever is available for trade.

 

Santana didn't cost that much to get. Philip Humber was dead to baseball when he was at Rice. Carlos Gomez is the rich man's Joey Gathright. Or the younger, suckier version of Nook Logan. Or something.

 

Santana would only go to 2 teams. And it's not Toronto's fault that some idiot in the Twins organization thought Carols Gomez wasn't flaming ass.

 

Still to this day I have no clue as to how the Twins did not get Fernando Martinez.

[questionmarkgrace]

Heres my take

 

I think Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball. That said, he has pitched a crap load of innings in his career. Hes on pace for his fourth straight season of 200 innings and in the last eight years he has led the AL three times in innings pitched. In short, the Blue jays have road him for the horse that he is and recognize that he wont be nearly as durable for the second half of his career.

 

I dont think the cubs have the prospects to do this trade but it will certainly take a kings ransom to acquire this guy. The Giants may be the best positioned to do this. There is also a lot of risk that the amount of innings he has pitched will catch up with him.

[davearm2]

Johan Santana is a lousy comp, for reasons already stated (player would only accept a trade to 2-3 teams, and demanded a $100M+ outlay once acquired).

 

This winter we heard the Padres required a "Herschel Walker" type package for Peavy.

 

3 months of Sabathia yielded one elite prospect (LaPorta), one excellent prospect (Brantley) and 2 others.

 

A much less accomplished (but also cheaper) Dan Haren netted the A's 6 players.

 

Those are all much better points of reference for Halladay's trade value than is Santana.

[Jehrico]

How far apart would we be on a trade of Soriano, Randy Wells, and Fox for Vernon Wells and Halladay?

[Friendly Confines]

How far apart would we be on a trade of Soriano, Randy Wells, and Fox for Vernon Wells and Halladay?

 

ha

[Backtobanks]

How far apart would we be on a trade of Soriano, Randy Wells, and Fox for Vernon Wells and Halladay?

 

Vernon Wells' contract makes Soriano's look great. One site stated that it's the worst contract in baseball. Now if you made that Alex Rios instead of Vernon Wells, it might get interesting from this side (but not from the Canadian side).

[UK1679666180]

Toronto isn't likely going to trade Halladay without including Wells or Rios in that deal to help them financially.