Sammy to formally retire soon

[CyHawk_Cub]

The point is that he has a history of cheating

 

So does the game of baseball in general. I really don't see the point in flipping out over someone using a corked bat when most players are doing every little thing they can to gain an advantage. It's part of baseball. Keeping someone out of the hall for that would be like keeping out one of the best pitchers of an era because he got caught once with sandpaper.

 

Like I said, he got caught for the bat and was suspended. That shouldn't keep him out. Like it or not, nothing and nobody has come even remotely close to busting him when it comes to steroids. That doesn't mean he didn't use them, but for now he should be judged based on his performance. The corked bat should have negligable impact in that regard since use of them over his career would have been detrimental to his numbers.

 

I just meant that the cork incident is relevant in the speculation of him using drugs because it shows that he has cheated before

 

I don't think I'd feel comfortable indicting him for PED use based on corking... They don't seem to be of the same severity. Corking/spit-balling, just don't "feel" like they rise to the level of willful misconduct that PED use does. I know, it's inexact at best, but that's how I feel about it.

[dew1679666265]

40

36

66

 

In 1996, the year he hit 40, he played just 124 games. He then broke his hand on a pitch in late August. He had hit 10 home runs each month prior to that (save for April when he hit 6). He was on a pace to hit somewhere around 8-12 more home runs the final 6 weeks of the season. As we've seen with injured hands/wrists, there is a great likelihood an injury such as that can sap power for a period of time (look at Derrek Lee).

 

So, if you assume a full season in 96 for Sosa, you're looking at 48-52 home runs - which makes the 1998 outburst look more in line with where he was heading. Like DLee, that 36 in 1997 was likely due to the hand regaining the power it once had. Two of his first three months in 97 his slugging percentage was in the .300s. In July, August and September, that SLG improved to .411, .535 and .489. August was the one-year mark after breaking his hand.

 

In 2006, after DLee injured his wrist, he played in 36 more games. He hit a grand total of 5 home runs and 5 doubles in those games. Like Sammy, a full year after the injury took place, DLee was back to slugging .567 in April of 2007. Similar injuries, similar return to production timelines for both players.

 

Could Sammy have used steroids? Certainly. Is looking at his raw home run totals worth much of anything in the debate? Certainly not.

[Soul]

I don't think he was clean, but I do think the evidence that he used is weaker than a lot of these other guys.

[kjfoster 1553]

So I'm not 100% sure of the timing of everything, but if I was betting I would say Sammy COULD be one of the 103 or so people that are on the list ARod was on. If this is the case (if and when the names come out), I doubt he gets into the HoF, at least not any time in the near future.

 

I am of the belief that EVERYONE that has the numbers in this era should be voted in. That includes Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Griffey, Clemens, Maddux, etc. Whether they used or not, evidence or none.

 

It definitely sucks for the people who didn't use (Griffey and Maddux) but we really don't even know that for 100%. Anyone and everyone could be on something that helped their performance. We will probably never know...

[Little Slide Rooter]

If theyre going to deny McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens HOF access, they damn sure better do the same with Manny. Remember, Sammy never tested positive for anything accept for cork.

[Bull]

The point is that he has a history of cheating

 

So does the game of baseball in general. I really don't see the point in flipping out over someone using a corked bat when most players are doing every little thing they can to gain an advantage. It's part of baseball. Keeping someone out of the hall for that would be like keeping out one of the best pitchers of an era because he got caught once with sandpaper.

 

Like I said, he got caught for the bat and was suspended. That shouldn't keep him out. Like it or not, nothing and nobody has come even remotely close to busting him when it comes to steroids. That doesn't mean he didn't use them, but for now he should be judged based on his performance. The corked bat should have negligable impact in that regard since use of them over his career would have been detrimental to his numbers.

 

I just meant that the cork incident is relevant in the speculation of him using drugs because it shows that he has cheated before

 

I don't think I'd feel comfortable indicting him for PED use based on corking... They don't seem to be of the same severity. Corking/spit-balling, just don't "feel" like they rise to the level of willful misconduct that PED use does. I know, it's inexact at best, but that's how I feel about it.

 

You guys are going to think I'm nuts, but I still believe cork-gate was an accident. When they x-rayed all his bats (some in his possesion, some in the hall of fame) none were found to have cork except the "batting practice" bat.

 

So either - he chose that one bat that one day to cheat (it was a black bat as opposed to the wood colored bats he usually used) or someone handed him the wrong bat and he didn't take the time to say "no not this one, its loaded" which would have brought speculation.

 

someone with some video of how many times he used the bat would answer this question for us.

[SouthSideRyan]

This thread has been everything I've hoped for. I really hope by time I wake up tomorrow we can get this to 3 pages or so. I hope Cynosure posts a lot more too.

 

Thank you everyone.

[SouthSideRyan]

The point is that he has a history of cheating

 

So does the game of baseball in general. I really don't see the point in flipping out over someone using a corked bat when most players are doing every little thing they can to gain an advantage. It's part of baseball. Keeping someone out of the hall for that would be like keeping out one of the best pitchers of an era because he got caught once with sandpaper.

 

Like I said, he got caught for the bat and was suspended. That shouldn't keep him out. Like it or not, nothing and nobody has come even remotely close to busting him when it comes to steroids. That doesn't mean he didn't use them, but for now he should be judged based on his performance. The corked bat should have negligable impact in that regard since use of them over his career would have been detrimental to his numbers.

 

I just meant that the cork incident is relevant in the speculation of him using drugs because it shows that he has cheated before

 

I really hope George Brett gets kicked out of the hall of fame.

[SouthSideRyan]

It definitely sucks for the people who didn't use (Griffey and Maddux)

 

Breaking down at an early age and a guy with absurd movement on his pitches. I think it's pretty clear they're 2 of the worst offenders.

[kjfoster 1553]

It definitely sucks for the people who didn't use (Griffey and Maddux)

 

Breaking down at an early age and a guy with absurd movement on his pitches. I think it's pretty clear they're 2 of the worst offenders.

 

? I said they didn't use. I'm not following the purpose of your sarcasm.

[Guest]

It definitely sucks for the people who didn't use (Griffey and Maddux)

 

Breaking down at an early age and a guy with absurd movement on his pitches. I think it's pretty clear they're 2 of the worst offenders.

 

? I said they didn't use. I'm not following the purpose of your sarcasm.

I'm not SSR, but I'd say that you have no basis for saying they didn't use. One of the side effects of steroids are consistent with the sorts of injuries Griffey has had. Maddux, though I have nothing for.

 

The moral of the story is that Sammy's never even been remotely implicated. There's as much evidence against him as there are against Jr. and Maddux.

 

The corked bat is a non-secuitor

[kjfoster 1553]

It definitely sucks for the people who didn't use (Griffey and Maddux)

 

Breaking down at an early age and a guy with absurd movement on his pitches. I think it's pretty clear they're 2 of the worst offenders.

 

? I said they didn't use. I'm not following the purpose of your sarcasm.

I'm not SSR, but I'd say that you have no basis for saying they didn't use. One of the side effects of steroids are consistent with the sorts of injuries Griffey has had. Maddux, though I have nothing for.

 

The moral of the story is that Sammy's never even been remotely implicated. There's as much evidence against him as there are against Jr. and Maddux.

 

The corked bat is a non-secuitor

 

I guess I have no evidence they didn't use. My problem was "I think it's pretty clear they're 2 of the worst offenders".

[CubLover8769]

Sammy was never a team player and never will be. i say good riddance to this worhtless CHEAT (and thats what he is, a dirty cheat) and hope that he goes away and never comes back. HALL OF FAME? you have to be kiddin me. Sammy will reside in the hall of SHAME for the sins he committed against the great game of baseball.

 

Sammy never one anything, and theres a good reason for that. whayt other "GREAT" hall of fame player was so worthless in crunchtime (when true stars shine) that his team could never even make it to the world series.

[Guest]

Sammy was never a team player and never will be. i say good riddance to this worhtless CHEAT (and thats what he is, a dirty cheat) and hope that he goes away and never comes back. HALL OF FAME? you have to be kiddin me. Sammy will reside in the hall of SHAME for the sins he committed against the great game of baseball.

 

Sammy never one anything, and theres a good reason for that. whayt other "GREAT" hall of fame player was so worthless in crunchtime (when true stars shine) that his team could never even make it to the world series.

:D

 

I'd also like to add, that it's Nice to be IMPORTANT, but it's more important to be NICE!

[jersey cubs fan]

The point is that he has a history of cheating

 

So does the game of baseball in general. I really don't see the point in flipping out over someone using a corked bat when most players are doing every little thing they can to gain an advantage. It's part of baseball. Keeping someone out of the hall for that would be like keeping out one of the best pitchers of an era because he got caught once with sandpaper.

 

Like I said, he got caught for the bat and was suspended. That shouldn't keep him out. Like it or not, nothing and nobody has come even remotely close to busting him when it comes to steroids. That doesn't mean he didn't use them, but for now he should be judged based on his performance. The corked bat should have negligable impact in that regard since use of them over his career would have been detrimental to his numbers.

 

I just meant that the cork incident is relevant in the speculation of him using drugs because it shows that he has cheated before

 

I really hope George Brett gets kicked out of the hall of fame.

 

Not to mention Joe Morgan, who openly admitted to using a corked bat.

[soapy]

Sammy was never a team player and never will be. i say good riddance to this worhtless CHEAT (and thats what he is, a dirty cheat) and hope that he goes away and never comes back. HALL OF FAME? you have to be kiddin me. Sammy will reside in the hall of SHAME for the sins he committed against the great game of baseball.

 

Sammy never one anything, and theres a good reason for that. whayt other "GREAT" hall of fame player was so worthless in crunchtime (when true stars shine) that his team could never even make it to the world series.

 

Fergie Jenkins, Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, etc...

 

losers

[dew1679666265]

Sammy was never a team player and never will be. i say good riddance to this worhtless CHEAT (and thats what he is, a dirty cheat) and hope that he goes away and never comes back. HALL OF FAME? you have to be kiddin me. Sammy will reside in the hall of SHAME for the sins he committed against the great game of baseball.

 

Sammy never one anything, and theres a good reason for that. whayt other "GREAT" hall of fame player was so worthless in crunchtime (when true stars shine) that his team could never even make it to the world series.

 

I'd wager we don't make the 98 and 03 playoffs without Sammy. And save for the 03 and 04 teams, he was never on a team close to good enough to make the World Series.

 

Just throwing it out there, though, Ernie Banks never got his teams to the postseason and Billy Williams had a career .125 OPS in the playoffs.

[dew1679666265]

Not to mention Joe Morgan, who openly admitted to using a corked bat.

 

And mentioned other stars of old who he knew had used them as well - mistakes all.

[Sammys Boombox]

So I'm not 100% sure of the timing of everything, but if I was betting I would say Sammy COULD be one of the 103 or so people that are on the list ARod was on. If this is the case (if and when the names come out), I doubt he gets into the HoF, at least not any time in the near future.

 

I am of the belief that EVERYONE that has the numbers in this era should be voted in. That includes Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Griffey, Clemens, Maddux, etc. Whether they used or not, evidence or none.

 

It definitely sucks for the people who didn't use (Griffey and Maddux) but we really don't even know that for 100%. Anyone and everyone could be on something that helped their performance. We will probably never know...

 

I'm not saying Sammy didn't use, but as the years go on I'm more inclined to believe that he didn't. With all the people that have tried so hard to link the sluggers from the steroid era to steroids they have not been able to link Sosa to them. I would think that if Sosa's name was included in the list of 103 (or Bonds or any other major star), that we would have heard that by now. How and why ARod was singled out makes no sense to me except for the fact that he is ARod. Sosa being named wouldn't be as shocking but it would be big because there is NO evidence outside of speculation that he used.

 

If the entire list of 103 does come out and Sosa is not on it, I would have to say that no HOF voter would have a reason to leave him off the ballot. As it is now he should get in.

[SouthSideRyan]

If the entire list of 103 does come out and Sosa is not on it, I would have to say that no HOF voter would have a reason to leave him off the ballot. As it is now he should get in.

 

We all know these sluggers have been using their designer steroids for years. Just because a guy didn't test positive means he didn't do steroids?? Burn the witch.

[kjfoster 1553]

I would think that if Sosa's name was included in the list of 103 (or Bonds or any other major star), that we would have heard that by now.

 

Why? There are 102 more players on that list that haven't had their names come out. I'm sure there will be other 'stars' on that list.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I would think that if Sosa's name was included in the list of 103 (or Bonds or any other major star), that we would have heard that by now.

 

Why? There are 102 more players on that list that haven't had their names come out. I'm sure there will be other 'stars' on that list.

 

Sosa, Bonds, and McGwire were the main focus that started it all, so surely their names would be released.

[Sammy Sofa]

Dude... it's obvious.

 

I like Sammy as much as the next guy and hate him for bailing on us... but the fact is... just look at it...

 

Don't act surprised when his name comes up in the next few years.

 

I don't care if his name does come up.

 

Bonds should be in the HOF. So should Clemens and McGwire and Sosa. We need to stop acting like sniveling children in denial and treating this game like it's some kind of pure institution that was tainted by steroids in the 90's and early 00's.

 

sniveling children in denial?

 

no, i prefer to look at it as men that have let many hearts down

 

men that have spit in the face of fair competition

 

men that were already endowed with gifts that were beyond greedy

 

or better yet...put them in the hall...a special corner spot called "PEDS"...i could live with that

 

Why don't all the other "cheaters" get set aside? All the ridiculous little reasons you just listed apply to anyone who has ever bent or broken the rules over the game's history. Why only set steroids apart?

[WrigleyField 22]

As far as Sosa and steroids go, here is a post I made in an old Sammy/Steroid thread.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's my effort to try and track Sammy's size vs. production vs. age.

 

For HR I did it as a percentage of ABs to account for short seasons. SLG wasn't changed. They are both graphed against his age.

 

Pictures are mostly baseball cards. I figure they could be slightly off. Most likely in any given year, the picture is from the previous year (such as 2005, where he's wearing a Cubs uniform, but he was on the Orioles). It's not exact, but should provide for a decent look at progression, as opposed to just looking at 20 year old Sammy vs. 30 year old Sammy.

 

I don't think this proves anything one way or the other, but it is interesting to look at.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/snetsrak43/steroidsammy.png

 

Edit- the most telling one for me is to look at two pictures from 1989 and 1990. Here they are in full size.

http://passtheword.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/sosa-89donrussbest.JPGhttp://www.basehit.net/CatImages/90Donruss489.jpg

The one on the right is one you'd typically see from someone trying to say Sammy was just some skinny kid. But he looks pretty big in the first one. Also his head seems pretty large, which is something people will typically point to.

 

Now like I said, nothing can be proven with these. The things with pictures is that angles and poses can create many different "tricks". We'd have to have a constant angle/pose year to year to make any significant conclusions. Still interesting to try and compare though.

[SouthSideRyan]

Because back then men were men and women knew their role.