Sources: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in '03

[jaydee]

So is there any doubt now that Pujols is a dirty dirty cheater?

[MPC]

i'm still curious about the leaked list of players that came out of the morning of the mitchell report. iirc darren rovell reported it and stood by it even when the mitchell report came out with a much smaller list with a few big names and a bunch of forgettable nobodies.

[wade]

So is there any doubt now that Pujols is a dirty dirty cheater?

 

Ha. In my mind he probably is, but that's just because I'm to the point where I think it's a very, very high percentage that have done it.

 

Look at it this way, some of the greatest hitters of our generation now have positive tests (according to these leaks). There is no way that the very best are using while the vast majority are not. I.E., think of all the guys on the cusp, etc. that need all the edge they can get to try and get a contract.

 

Don't know if I explained that very well.

[Wilson A2000]

So is there any doubt now that Pujols is a dirty dirty cheater?

 

I don't want him to be guilty of that, just like I didn't want ARod to be (or claimed to be), but wasn't there a claim a while back that said that Pujols was involved with steroids?

[TruffleShuffle]

So is there any doubt now that Pujols is a dirty dirty cheater?

 

Ha. In my mind he probably is, but that's just because I'm to the point where I think it's a very, very high percentage that have done it.

 

Look at it this way, some of the greatest hitters of our generation now have positive tests (according to these leaks). There is no way that the very best are using while the vast majority are not. I.E., think of all the guys on the cusp, etc. that need all the edge they can get to try and get a contract.

 

Don't know if I explained that very well.

 

i wouldn't confine it to the hitters. people tend to suspect the power hitters because we see them getting bigger and hitting the ball farther, but there were a lot of pitchers on the mitchell report. throwing the ball faster and with more torque is just as important as hitting the ball farther.

 

and people also tend to forget that this is not just a problem with a few good players using steroids to become great. there were a lot of marginal major leaguers who used steroids to become good enough just to stick in the big leagues for a few years. i don't remember people speculating about whether mike lansing, f.p. santangelo or paxton crawford used steroids, because they were smaller guys and not particularly noteworthy players.

 

there's an instinct to want to throw out the statistics of guys like bonds and mcgwire because they were artificially enhancing their strength during that time, but don't forget that a lot of their fellow hitters, and a lot of pitchers facing them, were also using steroids. the playing field for bonds/mcgwire/whoever was probably a lot more fair than you'd like to believe.

[wade]

So is there any doubt now that Pujols is a dirty dirty cheater?

 

Ha. In my mind he probably is, but that's just because I'm to the point where I think it's a very, very high percentage that have done it.

 

Look at it this way, some of the greatest hitters of our generation now have positive tests (according to these leaks). There is no way that the very best are using while the vast majority are not. I.E., think of all the guys on the cusp, etc. that need all the edge they can get to try and get a contract.

 

Don't know if I explained that very well.

 

i wouldn't confine it to the hitters. people tend to suspect the power hitters because we see them getting bigger and hitting the ball farther, but there were a lot of pitchers on the mitchell report. throwing the ball faster and with more torque is just as important as hitting the ball farther.

 

and people also tend to forget that this is not just a problem with a few good players using steroids to become great. there were a lot of marginal major leaguers who used steroids to become good enough just to stick in the big leagues for a few years. i don't remember people speculating about whether mike lansing, f.p. santangelo or paxton crawford used steroids, because they were smaller guys and not particularly noteworthy players.

 

there's an instinct to want to throw out the statistics of guys like bonds and mcgwire because they were artificially enhancing their strength during that time, but don't forget that a lot of their fellow hitters, and a lot of pitchers facing them, were also using steroids. the playing field for bonds/mcgwire/whoever was probably a lot more fair than you'd like to believe.

 

Agree.

[UMFan83]

i'm still curious about the leaked list of players that came out of the morning of the mitchell report. iirc darren rovell reported it and stood by it even when the mitchell report came out with a much smaller list with a few big names and a bunch of forgettable nobodies.

 

That's an interesting thought. It's possible.

[Andy]

i'm still curious about the leaked list of players that came out of the morning of the mitchell report. iirc darren rovell reported it and stood by it even when the mitchell report came out with a much smaller list with a few big names and a bunch of forgettable nobodies.

 

That's an interesting thought. It's possible.

Sosa was on that list, I believe.

[CUBZ99]

i'm still curious about the leaked list of players that came out of the morning of the mitchell report. iirc darren rovell reported it and stood by it even when the mitchell report came out with a much smaller list with a few big names and a bunch of forgettable nobodies.

 

That's an interesting thought. It's possible.

Sosa was on that list, I believe.

 

Not according to the earlier reports. I would love for Sosa to have been clean during his career. (even if it is a fantasy).

[fivepercent]

I have no idea what is to be gained by any of this

 

Bonds, ARod, Clemens, and McGwire won't make the HOF. That is certainly something to be gained.

 

mcgwire is at least borderline but you aren't gaining anything by keeping out bonds, arod and clemens. they're three of the all-time greats with or without steroids, and it's just embarrassing to the voters and the hall itself if those guys aren't elected.

 

to me it isnt a question of "were they good enough with or without steroids". the fact they contributed to the integrity damage of the game automatically eliminates them IMO.

[Monco]

I have no idea what is to be gained by any of this

 

Bonds, ARod, Clemens, and McGwire won't make the HOF. That is certainly something to be gained.

 

mcgwire is at least borderline but you aren't gaining anything by keeping out bonds, arod and clemens. they're three of the all-time greats with or without steroids, and it's just embarrassing to the voters and the hall itself if those guys aren't elected.

 

to me it isnt a question of "were they good enough with or without steroids". the fact they contributed to the integrity damage of the game automatically eliminates them IMO.

 

Integrity damage ? MLB has a ex car salesmen as commish...

[TruffleShuffle]

to me it isnt a question of "were they good enough with or without steroids". the fact they contributed to the integrity damage of the game automatically eliminates them IMO.

 

okay in that case can we retroactively throw out all the racists in the hall of fame? ty cobb, enos slaughter and kenesaw mountain landis are the first three out imo.

[MPC]

i'm still curious about the leaked list of players that came out of the morning of the mitchell report. iirc darren rovell reported it and stood by it even when the mitchell report came out with a much smaller list with a few big names and a bunch of forgettable nobodies.

 

That's an interesting thought. It's possible.

Sosa was on that list, I believe.

i also remember kerry wood and mark prior were as well.

[Sammy Sofa]

I have no idea what is to be gained by any of this

 

Bonds, ARod, Clemens, and McGwire won't make the HOF. That is certainly something to be gained.

 

mcgwire is at least borderline but you aren't gaining anything by keeping out bonds, arod and clemens. they're three of the all-time greats with or without steroids, and it's just embarrassing to the voters and the hall itself if those guys aren't elected.

 

to me it isnt a question of "were they good enough with or without steroids". the fact they contributed to the integrity damage of the game automatically eliminates them IMO.

 

Steroids saved baseball.

[erik316wttn]

I have no idea what is to be gained by any of this

 

Bonds, ARod, Clemens, and McGwire won't make the HOF. That is certainly something to be gained.

 

mcgwire is at least borderline but you aren't gaining anything by keeping out bonds, arod and clemens. they're three of the all-time greats with or without steroids, and it's just embarrassing to the voters and the hall itself if those guys aren't elected.

 

to me it isnt a question of "were they good enough with or without steroids". the fact they contributed to the integrity damage of the game automatically eliminates them IMO.

 

Steroids saved baseball.

 

Unfortunately, they did. You wouldn't have had the Home Run Chase in '98 without them, which is credited with bringing fans back after the strike in '94. One hell of a Catch-22 baseball got itself into. Let's rally against the thing that saved us in the first place!

[cubbinalltheway]

i dont think saddened is the right word, but am i the only one who feels that way about this? why cant this great game we all love just be pure?

[rocket]

i dont think saddened is the right word, but am i the only one who feels that way about this? why cant this great game we all love just be pure?

 

it probably never was pure.

[Soul]

I have no idea what is to be gained by any of this

 

Bonds, ARod, Clemens, and McGwire won't make the HOF. That is certainly something to be gained.

 

mcgwire is at least borderline but you aren't gaining anything by keeping out bonds, arod and clemens. they're three of the all-time greats with or without steroids, and it's just embarrassing to the voters and the hall itself if those guys aren't elected.

 

to me it isnt a question of "were they good enough with or without steroids". the fact they contributed to the integrity damage of the game automatically eliminates them IMO.

 

Steroids saved baseball.

 

Unfortunately, they did. You wouldn't have had the Home Run Chase in '98 without them, which is credited with bringing fans back after the strike in '94. One hell of a Catch-22 baseball got itself into. Let's rally against the thing that saved us in the first place!

 

Yeah, the attendance numbers are doing fine now though, even in the so-called post steroid era. And while '98 definitely did capture the public's interest, there's no way of knowing whether it was really necessary to bring fans back. I suspect it wasn't -- just would have taken a bit longer.

[OleMissCub]

What drives me nuts about it more than anything else is how baseball is treated differently from football and basketball.

 

That bothers me a bit too, but of course there are a few main reasons, justifiably or not, for the disparate treatment between the sports, especially football and baseball.

 

- Baseball is more a game of individual achievement as opposed to football, so scrutiny on the individual will always be greater in baseball than football. This principle manifests itself most clearly as regards the achievement of "sacred" records.

 

- In baseball, it is not a requirement that you be bigger, stronger, or faster than the next guy in order to excel. Athleticism is a huge part of the game, but not nearly as much as in football. It's far more difficult to be great in football with athletic mediocrity as opposed to baseball. Since you don't have to be impressive physically in baseball, there is more of a stigma attached when the player separates himself from the field in that regard. Another way to say it is that there is a greater range between a juiced baseball player and a non-juiced one as opposed to a juiced football player and his non-juiced counterpart.

 

However, the purpose of pointing that out isn't to say that the effects of steroids is greater in baseball than football because I don't think it is. As I said earlier, football is more about being bigger, stronger, & faster than in baseball, so getting the edge physical is going to be more crucial in football. My point was merely to show why there is a disparate treatment as regards to the public stigma.

 

just my opinion of course

[Soul]

What drives me nuts about it more than anything else is how baseball is treated differently from football and basketball.

 

That bothers me a bit too, but of course there are a few main reasons, justifiably or not, for the disparate treatment between the sports, especially football and baseball.

 

- Baseball is more a game of individual achievement as opposed to football, so scrutiny on the individual will always be greater in baseball than football. This principle manifests itself most clearly as regards the achievement of "sacred" records.

 

- In baseball, it is not a requirement that you be bigger, stronger, or faster than the next guy in order to excel. Athleticism is a huge part of the game, but not nearly as much as in football. It's far more difficult to be great in football with athletic mediocrity as opposed to baseball. Since you don't have to be impressive physically in baseball, there is more of a stigma attached when the player separates himself from the field in that regard. Another way to say it is that there is a greater range between a juiced baseball player and a non-juiced one as opposed to a juiced football player and his non-juiced counterpart.

 

However, the purpose of pointing that out isn't to say that the effects of steroids is greater in baseball than football because I don't think it is. As I said earlier, football is more about being bigger, stronger, & faster than in baseball, so getting the edge physical is going to be more crucial in football. My point was merely to show why there is a disparate treatment as regards to the public stigma.

 

just my opinion of course

 

I think in the case of football they succeeded in "getting ahead" of the issue by putting in a drug testing program before all the crap hit.

 

Basketball has largely been ignored in all of this. I don't really know why. Maybe the big blowup is still to come.

[Sammy Sofa]

i dont think saddened is the right word, but am i the only one who feels that way about this? why cant this great game we all love just be pure?

 

Yeah, all the spitballs, "trick" pitches, gambling, throwing games, sharpened cleats, corked bats, pine tar, uppers and on and on and on and on are what made it SO damn pure.

[hawkcub]

i dont think saddened is the right word, but am i the only one who feels that way about this? why cant this great game we all love just be pure?

 

Yeah, all the spitballs, "trick" pitches, gambling, throwing games, sharpened cleats, corked bats, pine tar, uppers and on and on and on and on are what made it SO damn pure.

 

And don't forget STEALING a base. Even the terminology is not pure. Baseball has never been pure. Some of you baseball romantics need to learn the history of the game a little more.

[Outshined_One]

i dont think saddened is the right word, but am i the only one who feels that way about this? why cant this great game we all love just be pure?

 

Yeah, all the spitballs, "trick" pitches, gambling, throwing games, sharpened cleats, corked bats, pine tar, uppers and on and on and on and on are what made it SO damn pure.

 

That's why I like this book. Rule-breaking happens all the time in baseball and, in some cases, actually makes it a more interesting and compelling game.

[The Voice of Reason]

Once again, Jose Canseco is right

 

Of all people, who would have thought that Jose Canseco would be the voice of reason?

 

Damn, the cat's out of the bag - I've been exposed.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Once again, Jose Canseco is right

 

Of all people, who would have thought that Jose Canseco would be the voice of reason?

 

Damn, the cat's out of the bag - I've been exposed.

 

Well payed !! =D>