ESPN: Cedeno & Olson Traded for Heilman (P. 4)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm overexaggerating a little. I like the Cardinals for low-80s right now.

[Bote McBoteface]

I'm loving the overreaction. haha.

[17 Seconds]

Who else besides the Cubs are a great bet to be over .500 this year?

a great bet? i dont know how you define that, but i expect at least two other teams to be over .500. probably the cards and astros. maybe the brewers too.

 

i don't see it. the cardinals might be, but only because they're the cardinals. their roster is very unimpressive. the brewers have lost their 2 aces and look to have a bad rotation, mediocre offense, and bad bullpen. i see them around .500, proably a bit under. i don't see how you like the astros being over .500, unless you're going by last year's record and not their actual team. they had a flukey run last year and some flukey production that they probably won't get again. their rotation looks really bad

[jersey cubs fan]

Oversliding a base is a physical mistake and is likely mechanical flaw as far as deciding when to slide and the inability to put yourself in position to stop your momentum, which doesn't detract from a player's intelligence.

 

Dumb play, mistake, flaw in judgment, like I said its all a matter of the adjective you want to use.

 

I think the people that could best gauge his aptitude would be the people that he spent the most time with, mainly Lou, Hendry, other coaches, his teammates, beat writers, etc. Bruce is pretty reserved in his criticism of players, so I would tend to think that if Bruce was insinuating that Cedeno was viewed as not very bright, that would be closer to the truth than any of us posters on a message board.

 

Where did I say anything about Cedeno and his intelligence or lack of?

 

To try and insinuate that a player oversliding a base is somehow part of a mental flaw, I doubt that person has really spent much running the bases in a live game but if they don't overslide it while playing The show then it must not occur in real life.

 

We have a guy on our softball team who routinely overslides the bag, and he's definitely an idiot.

[CUBZ99]

Oversliding a base is a physical mistake and is likely mechanical flaw as far as deciding when to slide and the inability to put yourself in position to stop your momentum, which doesn't detract from a player's intelligence.

 

Dumb play, mistake, flaw in judgment, like I said its all a matter of the adjective you want to use.

 

I think the people that could best gauge his aptitude would be the people that he spent the most time with, mainly Lou, Hendry, other coaches, his teammates, beat writers, etc. Bruce is pretty reserved in his criticism of players, so I would tend to think that if Bruce was insinuating that Cedeno was viewed as not very bright, that would be closer to the truth than any of us posters on a message board.

 

Where did I say anything about Cedeno and his intelligence or lack of?

 

To try and insinuate that a player oversliding a base is somehow part of a mental flaw, I doubt that person has really spent much running the bases in a live game but if they don't overslide it while playing The show then it must not occur in real life.

 

What is "The Show"? Oversliding a base, per se, is not generally a mental flaw. Not comprehending the situation in the game or understanding that the ball is live if you overslide, is a mental flaw.

Edited January 28, 2009 by CUBZ99

[17 Seconds]

Oversliding a base is a physical mistake and is likely mechanical flaw as far as deciding when to slide and the inability to put yourself in position to stop your momentum, which doesn't detract from a player's intelligence.

 

Dumb play, mistake, flaw in judgment, like I said its all a matter of the adjective you want to use.

 

I think the people that could best gauge his aptitude would be the people that he spent the most time with, mainly Lou, Hendry, other coaches, his teammates, beat writers, etc. Bruce is pretty reserved in his criticism of players, so I would tend to think that if Bruce was insinuating that Cedeno was viewed as not very bright, that would be closer to the truth than any of us posters on a message board.

 

Where did I say anything about Cedeno and his intelligence or lack of?

 

To try and insinuate that a player oversliding a base is somehow part of a mental flaw, I doubt that person has really spent much running the bases in a live game but if they don't overslide it while playing The show then it must not occur in real life.

 

What is "The Show"? Oversliding a base, per se, is not generally a mental flaw. Not comprehending the situation in the game or understanding that the ball is live if you overslide, is a mental flaw. With Cedeno it wasn't just a one time thing.

 

I don't know why you're acting like people are defending Cedeno's overrall career and baseball smarts. We're talking about one specific incident

[E.J.]

I don't know what to think of this trade. Heilman is definitely a better bet to be worthwhile for us this season than Olson or Cedeno, so I like that fact, but does this mean that we're no longer looking at Peavy? We seem to have quite a few people who now can fight it out for the 5th starter. I guess I'll wait until the offseason is over before I judge how Hendry has done, but he definitely has made some moves so far that have left me very puzzled.

[UMFan83]

dexter, I think you aren't giving the Brewers enough credit. They should be a .500 or slightly better with Gallardo in there all season, and assumed improvement of Parra as their 1-2. Plus they should have some money to make a move or two in season.

[NewUserName]

on its face trading Pie and Cedeno for Heilman doesnt seem like a good trade. However the Cubs will get more production from Heilman than they would from the first 2. I think this is just another case of the Cubs getting something after making a pile of nothing out of some talent.

[cubsfan26]

This is funny, I'm willing to wager the Cubs win 90 games or more next year. People can overreact all they want some of these moves, but I doubt were finshed yet. Even with the current roster as is, were still one of the best teams in the NL. Nobody in the NL besides the Phillies scare me right now, and we still have more talent and depth then most teams. If we add another SP, and good bench player for depth I'll actually be ok with this offseason.

[17 Seconds]

on its face trading Pie and Cedeno for Heilman doesnt seem like a good trade. However the Cubs will get more production from Heilman than they would from the first 2. I think this is just another case of the Cubs getting something after making a pile of nothing out of some talent.

 

They didn't trade Pie and Cedeno for him though, they traded Olson and Cedeno. Just because we got a good deal for Pie doesn't mean it's okay to turn around with the got you got and make a below average deal

[Hairyducked Idiot]

dexter, I think you aren't giving the Brewers enough credit. They should be a .500 or slightly better with Gallardo in there all season, and assumed improvement of Parra as their 1-2. Plus they should have some money to make a move or two in season.

 

No way. A full season of Gallard and improvement from Parra isn't enough to make up for losing 130.2 innings of 1.65 ERA and 198.1 innings of a 3.09 ERA (I know, not the best pitching stats). That's at least a six-game loss right there, and they were only an 87-win team by Pyth anyways.

[SouthSideRyan]

We have a guy on our softball team who routinely overslides the bag, and he's definitely an idiot.

 

In my experiences, it's really difficult to overslide a bag in softball.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

This is funny, I'm willing to wager the Cubs win 90 games or more next year. People can overreact all they want some of these moves, but I doubt were finshed yet. Even with the current roster as is, were still one of the best teams in the NL. Nobody in the NL besides the Phillies scare me right now, and we still have more talent and depth then most teams. If we add another SP, and good bench player for depth I'll actually be ok with this offseason.

 

Assuming they get Ramirez, I really like the Dodgers as a possible best team in the NL.

[cubswin2009]

This is funny, I'm willing to wager the Cubs win 90 games or more next year. People can overreact all they want some of these moves, but I doubt were finshed yet. Even with the current roster as is, were still one of the best teams in the NL. Nobody in the NL besides the Phillies scare me right now, and we still have more talent and depth then most teams. If we add another SP, and good bench player for depth I'll actually be ok with this offseason.

Honestly it looks like we're done making moves. They'll sign Paul Bako and take this team into Spring Training.

[17 Seconds]

This is funny, I'm willing to wager the Cubs win 90 games or more next year. People can overreact all they want some of these moves, but I doubt were finshed yet. Even with the current roster as is, were still one of the best teams in the NL. Nobody in the NL besides the Phillies scare me right now, and we still have more talent and depth then most teams. If we add another SP, and good bench player for depth I'll actually be ok with this offseason.

 

I think you're underestimating the loss of production that we were going to have even if we kept the same team. If we kept the identical team from last year we still would have won fewer games. Couple that with the bad offseason and we're probably around 85-90.

[UK1679666180]

Oversliding a base is a physical mistake and is likely mechanical flaw as far as deciding when to slide and the inability to put yourself in position to stop your momentum, which doesn't detract from a player's intelligence.

 

Dumb play, mistake, flaw in judgment, like I said its all a matter of the adjective you want to use.

 

I think the people that could best gauge his aptitude would be the people that he spent the most time with, mainly Lou, Hendry, other coaches, his teammates, beat writers, etc. Bruce is pretty reserved in his criticism of players, so I would tend to think that if Bruce was insinuating that Cedeno was viewed as not very bright, that would be closer to the truth than any of us posters on a message board.

 

Where did I say anything about Cedeno and his intelligence or lack of?

 

To try and insinuate that a player oversliding a base is somehow part of a mental flaw, I doubt that person has really spent much running the bases in a live game but if they don't overslide it while playing The show then it must not occur in real life.

 

What is "The Show"? Oversliding a base, per se, is not generally a mental flaw. Not comprehending the situation in the game or understanding that the ball is live if you overslide, is a mental flaw.

 

 

It's live regardless if it's ball 4 or strike 3, it's not like he decided to overslide the base because it was ball 4. He was running aggressively to avoid the strike em out/throw em out and his hand slipped off the bag on the outside of the base.

[jersey cubs fan]

We have a guy on our softball team who routinely overslides the bag, and he's definitely an idiot.

 

In my experiences, it's really difficult to overslide a bag in softball.

 

this dude is extremely fast, always takes the extra base and always slides headfirst.

[17 Seconds]

This is funny, I'm willing to wager the Cubs win 90 games or more next year. People can overreact all they want some of these moves, but I doubt were finshed yet. Even with the current roster as is, were still one of the best teams in the NL. Nobody in the NL besides the Phillies scare me right now, and we still have more talent and depth then most teams. If we add another SP, and good bench player for depth I'll actually be ok with this offseason.

 

Assuming they get Ramirez, I really like the Dodgers as a possible best team in the NL.

 

I don't know about that. They look pretty mediocre after losing Lowe and Saito. They'd have to have a lot of breakout years to be the best in the NL

[E.J.]

We have a guy on our softball team who routinely overslides the bag, and he's definitely an idiot.

 

In my experiences, it's really difficult to overslide a bag in softball.

 

this dude is extremely fast, always takes the extra base and always slides headfirst.

 

You picked up Pete Rose for your softball team? Honestly, who overslides the bag in softball, and who's the idiot who goes in headfirst? It's softball for crying out loud.

[NewUserName]

on its face trading Pie and Cedeno for Heilman doesnt seem like a good trade. However the Cubs will get more production from Heilman than they would from the first 2. I think this is just another case of the Cubs getting something after making a pile of nothing out of some talent.

 

They didn't trade Pie and Cedeno for him though, they traded Olson and Cedeno. Just because we got a good deal for Pie doesn't mean it's okay to turn around with the got you got and make a below average deal

 

I agree with you, but at the root this is what happened. Olson was always going to be trade bait. I think this whole off-season has been a disaster so far. Probably the only bright spot was getting something with some trade value for Pie. Unfortunately Hendry just flushed that down the toilet also. I honestly think most of this is just an over-reaction to 3 games against the Dodgers. I still think we would beat the Dodgers on most days last year. I would rather the Cubs would have just brought the same team back. They were a better team last October than they are today.

[The Other 15]

Things have calmed down significantly since the 4th page of this thread. If one read just the reactions to this trade and not the names involved, one would have thought the Cubs traded Vitters for Neifi.

 

Cedeno and Pie were out of options and more importantly (at least for Pie) out of luck to make this team. Everyone and their grandma knows this so I would imagine other GMs knew it as well. What were the Cubs supposed to get for them? They netted Heilman. Admittedly, one has to say yawn but let's not get crazy by pretending that Cedeno and Olson offered so much more.

 

Why can't Hendry get the benefit of the doubt by now?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

This is funny, I'm willing to wager the Cubs win 90 games or more next year. People can overreact all they want some of these moves, but I doubt were finshed yet. Even with the current roster as is, were still one of the best teams in the NL. Nobody in the NL besides the Phillies scare me right now, and we still have more talent and depth then most teams. If we add another SP, and good bench player for depth I'll actually be ok with this offseason.

 

Assuming they get Ramirez, I really like the Dodgers as a possible best team in the NL.

 

I don't know about that. They look pretty mediocre after losing Lowe and Saito. They'd have to have a lot of breakout years to be the best in the NL

 

87 pyth wins + full season of Ramirez - Lowe and Saito.

 

From there, I think they do have a lot of guys poised to have breakout years. Their roster is full of guys in the 20-26 range, so I'd say it's a good bet one or two have breakout years.

[treebird]

We have a guy on our softball team who routinely overslides the bag, and he's definitely an idiot.

 

In my experiences, it's really difficult to overslide a bag in softball.

 

i held a tag on someone who overslid second base and got them out last fall. it was great.

[17 Seconds]

This is funny, I'm willing to wager the Cubs win 90 games or more next year. People can overreact all they want some of these moves, but I doubt were finshed yet. Even with the current roster as is, were still one of the best teams in the NL. Nobody in the NL besides the Phillies scare me right now, and we still have more talent and depth then most teams. If we add another SP, and good bench player for depth I'll actually be ok with this offseason.

 

Assuming they get Ramirez, I really like the Dodgers as a possible best team in the NL.

 

I don't know about that. They look pretty mediocre after losing Lowe and Saito. They'd have to have a lot of breakout years to be the best in the NL

 

87 pyth wins + full season of Ramirez - Lowe and Saito.

 

From there, I think they do have a lot of guys poised to have breakout years. Their roster is full of guys in the 20-26 range, so I'd say it's a good bet one or two have breakout years.

 

A full season of Manny, but not the .396/.489/.743 Manny they had last year