Car Jumping Joey Gathright a Cub?

[OleMissCub]

It's OK guys, he isn't THAT bad. It's not like he had the worst OPS+ of all the Royals starters...oh wait

[TruffleShuffle]

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth apparently. Joey Gathright isn't a great defender. It might be stretching it to even call him a good defender. This is like back when people thought Scott Podsednik was a good defensive outfielder because he stole a lot of bases.

 

This guy is supposed to be the fastest man in baseball, looking at his stolen base numbers, he's got to be an incompetent baserunner. Actually, what is the upside here? How often is the 25th guy on a roster a guy with zero bat, okay defense, who can run? I think that Dave Roberts steal has clouded people's judgement. Name me one team where the 25th guy on the roster is some piece of crap pinch runner who can't do anything else.

 

shocking that badnews has a negative take on this signing.

[SouthSideRyan]

Seriously, Gathright is a horrendous hitter. Even so, 800K is a drop in the bucket for an above average baserunner/great defender. It's ~400K more than the minimum. I think he's safely 400K better than Sam Fuld. If he's on the team at the expense of Pie going to AAA or traded for scraps, I'm gonna be pretty pissed.

[Tracer Bullet]

It's OK guys, he isn't THAT bad. It's not like he had the worst OPS+ of all the Royals starters...oh wait

 

ZING!

 

:roll:

[badnews]

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth apparently. Joey Gathright isn't a great defender. It might be stretching it to even call him a good defender. This is like back when people thought Scott Podsednik was a good defensive outfielder because he stole a lot of bases.

 

This guy is supposed to be the fastest man in baseball, looking at his stolen base numbers, he's got to be an incompetent baserunner. Actually, what is the upside here? How often is the 25th guy on a roster a guy with zero bat, okay defense, who can run? I think that Dave Roberts steal has clouded people's judgement. Name me one team where the 25th guy on the roster is some piece of crap pinch runner who can't do anything else.

 

shocking that badnews has a negative take on this signing.

 

Shocking that someone decided to try and be cute by pointing this out.

 

Boo hoo. I don't blindly support crap like Milton Bradley and Joey Gathright. I don't buy into people lying to themselves about this 25th man on the roster pinch runner nonsense or his defense. Give me something positive to work with here and then let's see what happens, until then, you can bitch and moan about my negativity all you want, the Cubs pursue stupid avenues and I'm going to be negative. The Cubs pursue wise avenues and I will be positive. I know. Rocket science.

 

If I'm not positive enough for you point the finger at Jim Hendry, not me.

[TruffleShuffle]

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth apparently. Joey Gathright isn't a great defender. It might be stretching it to even call him a good defender. This is like back when people thought Scott Podsednik was a good defensive outfielder because he stole a lot of bases.

 

This guy is supposed to be the fastest man in baseball, looking at his stolen base numbers, he's got to be an incompetent baserunner. Actually, what is the upside here? How often is the 25th guy on a roster a guy with zero bat, okay defense, who can run? I think that Dave Roberts steal has clouded people's judgement. Name me one team where the 25th guy on the roster is some piece of crap pinch runner who can't do anything else.

 

shocking that badnews has a negative take on this signing.

 

Shocking that someone decided to try and be cute by pointing this out.

 

Boo hoo. I don't blindly support crap like Milton Bradley and Joey Gathright. I don't buy into people lying to themselves about this 25th man on the roster pinch runner nonsense or his defense. Give me something positive to work with here and then let's see what happens, until then, you can bitch and moan about my negativity all you want, the Cubs pursue stupid avenues and I'm going to be negative. The Cubs pursue wise avenues and I will be positive. I know. Rocket science.

 

If I'm not positive enough for you point the finger at Jim Hendry, not me.

 

so milton bradley and joey gathright are no good... feel free to suggest good alternative solultions.

 

people/baseball publications that think joey gathright isn't a particularly good defender: badnews

people/baseball publications that think joey gathright is a very good defender: everyone else

[Hosak8]

Targeted? Really?

 

Singled out. Is that better?

 

Oh, and way to refute the points. Another person incapable of addressing the point at hand. How fitting.

 

Either way, claiming to be singled out/targeted is rings awfully hollow considering the condescending responses you've dealt out in this thread("you Sabermetricians- who famously ignore any part of the game that cannot be quantified by some obscure methodology and formula"..."Another person incapable of addressing the point at hand. How fitting." among other incredulous rhetoricals making insinuations about the poster rather than the topic at hand), with none given by me in return. People arguing the other side of your posts doesn't mean you're being singled out, and if you're the angriest voice(why that is, I'm not sure) among those from that viewpoint, then you're the one that's going to get responded to.

 

Who's angry?

 

And you can cut the boy scout routine. You claim to have not responded to my "incredulous rhetorical" and "insinuations" in kind, yet admit to responding initially because mine was the "angriest voice". How is that constructive in the least?

 

But I digress. Let's stick to the point. I've made mine that the OP's assessment that Gathright is a better acquisition than Abreu, even at the opposing salary, is terrible. I'm still awaiting a decent response as to why that makes any sense at all.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Hosak8

[SouthSideRyan]

Yes, but how does this relate to the Big Bang Theory on CBS?

[Hosak8]

Yes, but how does this relate to the Big Bang Theory on CBS?

 

If you watched it last night, you wouldn't have even had to ask that question.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yes, but how does this relate to the Big Bang Theory on CBS?

 

If you watched it last night, you wouldn't have even had to ask that question.

 

Can't ask questions after you hang yourself.

[SweetZombieJesus]

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth apparently. Joey Gathright isn't a great defender. It might be stretching it to even call him a good defender. This is like back when people thought Scott Podsednik was a good defensive outfielder because he stole a lot of bases.

 

This guy is supposed to be the fastest man in baseball, looking at his stolen base numbers, he's got to be an incompetent baserunner. Actually, what is the upside here? How often is the 25th guy on a roster a guy with zero bat, okay defense, who can run? I think that Dave Roberts steal has clouded people's judgement. Name me one team where the 25th guy on the roster is some piece of crap pinch runner who can't do anything else.

 

Juan Pierre?

[Hosak8]

Yes, but how does this relate to the Big Bang Theory on CBS?

 

If you watched it last night, you wouldn't have even had to ask that question.

 

Can't ask questions after you hang yourself.

 

What does that mean?

[mdwilla]

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth apparently. Joey Gathright isn't a great defender. It might be stretching it to even call him a good defender. This is like back when people thought Scott Podsednik was a good defensive outfielder because he stole a lot of bases.

 

This guy is supposed to be the fastest man in baseball, looking at his stolen base numbers, he's got to be an incompetent baserunner. Actually, what is the upside here? How often is the 25th guy on a roster a guy with zero bat, okay defense, who can run? I think that Dave Roberts steal has clouded people's judgement. Name me one team where the 25th guy on the roster is some piece of crap pinch runner who can't do anything else.

 

Juan Pierre?

Ronny Cedeno isn't a good defender, can't hit , and is an idiot on the basebaths.

Sorry badnews but I'm not sure where you get your info or if you happen to watch Tampa and Kanasas games and saw a lot of Gathright firsthand because every scouting report has him as a great defender, weak arm, but he takes good routes and uses his speed. Peolpe made the mistake with Pierre and other fast guys that they where plus defenders but there routes and jumps where terrible, according to reports Gathright doesn't have those problems. I love that peolpe are so concerned about the 25th man, this is what is must be like for other teams coming off 97 win seasons it's still new to me.

[Rob]

For what it's worth, the one season Juan Pierre did spend in Chicago, he was a pretty good defender.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yes, but how does this relate to the Big Bang Theory on CBS?

 

If you watched it last night, you wouldn't have even had to ask that question.

 

Can't ask questions after you hang yourself.

 

What does that mean?

 

It's what I'd do after being forced to watch Big Bang Theory.

[Guancous]

Man, Joey Gathright and The Big Bang Theory in the same thread... bring on Spring Training. For what it's worth, here are Baseball Reference's top ten comparables through age. I won't list which player is for which:

 

1. Dick Harley (968)

2. Jose Tartabull (967)

3. Bob Dernier (966)

4. Spike Shannon (965)

5. Rebel Oakes (964)

6. Charlie Jamieson (963)

7. Frank Gilhooley (960)

8. Pat Carney (959)

9. Burt Shotton (959)

10. Ty Cline (958)

 

1. Bernie Williams (934)

2. Will Clark (896)

3. Luis Gonzalez (881)

4. Shawn Green (879)

5. Bobby Bonilla (876)

6. Garret Anderson (869)

7. John Olerud (869)

8. Reggie Smith (869)

9. George Brett (865) *

10. Dave Parker (859)

[Hosak8]

Yes, but how does this relate to the Big Bang Theory on CBS?

 

If you watched it last night, you wouldn't have even had to ask that question.

 

Can't ask questions after you hang yourself.

 

What does that mean?

 

It's what I'd do after being forced to watch Big Bang Theory.

 

Gotcha. Different strokes, I guess.

[umpunk]

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth apparently. Joey Gathright isn't a great defender. It might be stretching it to even call him a good defender. This is like back when people thought Scott Podsednik was a good defensive outfielder because he stole a lot of bases.

 

This guy is supposed to be the fastest man in baseball, looking at his stolen base numbers, he's got to be an incompetent baserunner. Actually, what is the upside here? How often is the 25th guy on a roster a guy with zero bat, okay defense, who can run? I think that Dave Roberts steal has clouded people's judgement. Name me one team where the 25th guy on the roster is some piece of crap pinch runner who can't do anything else.

 

Just wondering, but what are you basing Gathright not being a good defender on? Do you have any sort of support, cites, facts, etc... to back this claim up? I might not agree with Gathright being better than Abreu, but there was at least some evidence offered supporting the argument.

[Guancous]

I apologize if this was already posted. The following data doesn't include the 2008 season. Here is what Nate Silver forecast for each player for the 2009 season. (Value Over Replacement Player/Wins Over Replacement Player.)

 

Joey Gathright (2.4/2.3)

Bobby Abreu (14.6/3.5)

 

I've listened to the debate and I have a question. Let's say hypothetically that Gathright is the starting right fielder. Where does the extra $10 million get spent?

[Geech]

people/baseball publications that think joey gathright isn't a particularly good defender: badnews

people/baseball publications that think joey gathright is a very good defender: everyone else

 

John Dewan's plus/minus stats in CF the past three seasons:

 

2006 +8 (1016 innings)

2007 -1 (56 innings)

2008 -7 (720 innings)

 

He was also a +6 in 519 innings in LF in 2007. I don't know what he looks like in UZR, but it's definitely not unanimous that he's a great defender.

[Outshined_One]

For what it's worth, the one season Juan Pierre did spend in Chicago, he was a pretty good defender.

 

Maybe my memory is clouding my judgment, but he took terrible routes on balls. We don't even need to discuss the guy's arm. The only thing he had going for him in the OF was that he was fast and could make up for his bad jumps and routes with his speed.

 

I hated Juan Pierre.

[NonProfitCow]

I get Royals and Cards games here in SWMO. I have no bias in any way when it comes to the Royals. From watching Gathright it easy to say that he is terrible. The only thing he can do is run. He's not all that smart on the basepaths, but he could be better with good coaching. As far as defense goes, he takes very awkward routes to balls but his speed bails him out. This great defender stuff is BS. He's labeled a good defender because he is fast. That's really all there is to it.

[nilodnayr]

either way, i'd put ibanez at about 4 wins above gathright offensively, and I don't see how gathright makes up for that in defense.

 

40 runs is an awful lot, especially when Ibanez doesn't even OPS .900.

 

10 runs = 1 win?

 

Yep.

 

seems a little odd/arbitrary to me, but whatever.

 

BP has gathright at 84 EqR in 839 PAs the past 3 seasons

ibanez is at 311 EqR in 2042 PAs.

 

so if you assume that each guy gets 650 PAs in full playing time, at their current level of production, gathright would produce 65 runs while ibanez produces 99. so 34 runs difference. i guess my figure was a bit high but not off by much, and i don't see how gathright is 3.4 "wins" better than ibanez in the field.

 

Using wOBA, Ibanez projects around .345 for next year(James says .346, Marcel .344). With .328 as league average, that puts him about 10 runs above average. UZR has him around -24 in LF in '07 and -11 in '08. Moving to RF and getting a year older isn't going to help that, but let's say he's -10 to be simple and he's net zero above average.

 

Gathright is a career +19 defender in LF, +13 in CF. We'll split the difference conservatively(since RF is between LF and CF, closer to LF, on the defensive spectrum) and say he's +15 in RF. To put him on par with Ibanez, he needs to be at worst -15 at the plate, which is a .302 wOBA. Marcel has him at .302(.264/.333/.329 slash line) and James .315(.281/.356/.321) next year. This is where I differ from Colin, since I think those projections are optimistic for Gathright, a career .293 wOBA guy who put up an awful .280 last year. I don't think he's quite on par with Ibanez or Abreu on that offense+defense basis, but it's not as far fetched as you might think from looking at them offensively.

 

That said, the extent that you agree with the logic depends on how down you are with UZR. If you think being able to put a number on runs saved is preposterous, then it's not going to carry much weight. If you think UZR has been the leader in defensive metrics to this point, then it should at least give reason for pause, even if you don't ultimately agree.

 

2 things

 

Yes, Bill James projections are crap. No one should ever use them

 

You should also add in baserunning.

[Rob]

For what it's worth, the one season Juan Pierre did spend in Chicago, he was a pretty good defender.

 

Maybe my memory is clouding my judgment, but he took terrible routes on balls. We don't even need to discuss the guy's arm. The only thing he had going for him in the OF was that he was fast and could make up for his bad jumps and routes with his speed.

 

I hated Juan Pierre.

 

As did I. It doesn't change the reality that he was more than fast enough to make up for his bad routes in our tiny CF, though.

[Chuck_Cubs1]

I like this guy alot. Hes got a sweet li'l swing and has action on the baspaths. Give him a chance to start and we won't regret it.