BBWAA HOF Balot

[BigbadB]

Jay Bell - 88.8

 

Probably the most underrated player of recent times.

 

Seriously?

 

Jay Bell must have been one of Brady Anderson's best students in the school of "how to extend your career by roidin' up".

[OleMissCub]

Jay Bell - 88.8

 

Probably the most underrated player of recent times.

 

Seriously?

 

Jay Bell must have been one of Brady Anderson's best students in the school of "how to extend your career by roidin' up".

 

No kidding. Throw Bret Boone in there too.

[chopsx9]

I think I have a relatively decent idea of what a "slumpbuster" is but is their some colour than can be added to the facts?

[Guest]

My votes:

 

• Bert Blyleven

• Rickey Henderson

• Tim Raines

• Alan Trammell

 

Just on the outside:

 

• Andre Dawson

• Mark McGwire

 

 

Rickey is an inner-circle HOF guy and should be a unanimous choice except for the ridiculous thing the media has against making a guy a unanimous choice. I can't think of a single argument against Rickey for the Hall that makes the least amount of sense whatsoever.

 

Blyleven is the best all time pitcher not in the hall (who is eligible).

 

Rock is one of my favorite all time players.

 

I go back and forth on Trammell every year, but I think he should be in.

[CubinNY]

The only reason Mattingly gets consideration is because he played in New York his whole career. If he'd have played in a smaller market like Kansas City or Pittsburgh, there'd be no way he'd even recieve a single vote. I'm not saying he'll get in, but he'll get the fair majority of his votes for the sole reason of being a very good Yankee. The same will go for Derek Jeter when he's on the ballot.

Do me a favor and look up Jeter's numbers and compare them to any other SS in the HOF. Based on stats alone Bill James has his chances of getting in the HOF at greater than 100% (as only James can). Jeter is a first ballot HOFer.

 

Mattingly is borderline but defiantly should get consideration. He's the Mark Grace of the 1980s.

[jersey cubs fan]

The only reason Mattingly gets consideration is because he played in New York his whole career. If he'd have played in a smaller market like Kansas City or Pittsburgh, there'd be no way he'd even recieve a single vote. I'm not saying he'll get in, but he'll get the fair majority of his votes for the sole reason of being a very good Yankee. The same will go for Derek Jeter when he's on the ballot.

Do me a favor and look up Jeter's numbers and compare them to any other SS in the HOF. Based on stats alone Bill James has his chances of getting in the HOF at greater than 100% (as only James can). Jeter is a first ballot HOFer.

 

Mattingly is borderline but defiantly should get consideration. He's the Mark Grace of the 1980s.

 

In an odd twist, writers who vote in a lot of Yankees and Reds, and discount many other who didn't win rings, will have to take into consideration his lack of championships. He's got to be the best Yankee to never win one. But he's not HOF material. He had a relatively short peak and wasn't anything special during that time.

[Rob]

The only reason Mattingly gets consideration is because he played in New York his whole career. If he'd have played in a smaller market like Kansas City or Pittsburgh, there'd be no way he'd even recieve a single vote. I'm not saying he'll get in, but he'll get the fair majority of his votes for the sole reason of being a very good Yankee. The same will go for Derek Jeter when he's on the ballot.

Do me a favor and look up Jeter's numbers and compare them to any other SS in the HOF. Based on stats alone Bill James has his chances of getting in the HOF at greater than 100% (as only James can). Jeter is a first ballot HOFer.

 

Mattingly is borderline but defiantly should get consideration. He's the Mark Grace of the 1980s.

 

FYI, the Bill James metrics used for HoF evaluations are meant to measure whether they are likely to get voted in... not whether they are worthy of it.

[CubinNY]

The only reason Mattingly gets consideration is because he played in New York his whole career. If he'd have played in a smaller market like Kansas City or Pittsburgh, there'd be no way he'd even recieve a single vote. I'm not saying he'll get in, but he'll get the fair majority of his votes for the sole reason of being a very good Yankee. The same will go for Derek Jeter when he's on the ballot.

Do me a favor and look up Jeter's numbers and compare them to any other SS in the HOF. Based on stats alone Bill James has his chances of getting in the HOF at greater than 100% (as only James can). Jeter is a first ballot HOFer.

 

Mattingly is borderline but defiantly should get consideration. He's the Mark Grace of the 1980s.

 

FYI, the Bill James metrics used for HoF evaluations are meant to measure whether they are likely to get voted in... not whether they are worthy of it.

Maybe so, but James has him ranked as the 53 best offensive player of all time.

[Rob]

The only reason Mattingly gets consideration is because he played in New York his whole career. If he'd have played in a smaller market like Kansas City or Pittsburgh, there'd be no way he'd even recieve a single vote. I'm not saying he'll get in, but he'll get the fair majority of his votes for the sole reason of being a very good Yankee. The same will go for Derek Jeter when he's on the ballot.

Do me a favor and look up Jeter's numbers and compare them to any other SS in the HOF. Based on stats alone Bill James has his chances of getting in the HOF at greater than 100% (as only James can). Jeter is a first ballot HOFer.

 

Mattingly is borderline but defiantly should get consideration. He's the Mark Grace of the 1980s.

 

FYI, the Bill James metrics used for HoF evaluations are meant to measure whether they are likely to get voted in... not whether they are worthy of it.

Maybe so, but James has him ranked as the 53 best offensive player of all time.

 

Oh, I'm not arguing his worth. He's probably already HoF worthy.

[mdwilla]

My votes:

 

• Bert Blyleven

• Rickey Henderson

• Tim Raines

• Alan Trammell

 

Just on the outside:

 

• Andre Dawson

• Mark McGwire

 

 

Rickey is an inner-circle HOF guy and should be a unanimous choice except for the ridiculous thing the media has against making a guy a unanimous choice. I can't think of a single argument against Rickey for the Hall that makes the least amount of sense whatsoever.

 

Blyleven is the best all time pitcher not in the hall (who is eligible).

 

Rock is one of my favorite all time players.

 

I go back and forth on Trammell every year, but I think he should be in.

 

Raines over Dawson?

Dawson

 

77 ROY

87 NL MVP

9 - gold gloves

2774 hits

438 HR

318 SB

1591 Rbi's

 

 

Raines

 

2605 hits

170 HR

808 SB

294 Avg

385 OBP

 

What I am I missing ? Lofton numbers are pretty close to Raines is he HOF worthy?

[Rob]

The extra 750 walks probably has something to do with it.

[Clem Fandango]

The extra 750 walks probably has something to do with it.

 

Most definitely. I would think that had Rickey Henderson not existed Tim Raines would be the premier lead off hitter of the 1980's and a case to be made for him entering the hall would be much easier to make. Really if you think about it, Rickey Henderson's excellence is what might keep Tim Raines out of the HOF. He would've been 4th all time in steals instead of 5th, and it would've been a difference of 131 steals instead of 598 between him and first place.

 

Raines does, however, hold the record for the highest stolen base percentage amongst retired players at 84.7%. Beltran currently has a SB% of 88%, that's why I worded it as "retired players" since Beltran's career is far from over and things could change... although he's got 275 steals compared to Raines' 808. To steal 808 bases and be successful roughly 85% of the time is unreal.

 

It's a tough call. He did however score more than 1,500 runs and while some people might think that feat isn't anything that should be hall worthy, take a look at the list of players who have score 1,500 runs or more...

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiruns3.shtml

 

You'll find some of the best players in baseball history on that list, even near the 1,500 mark.

 

Raines is one of those personal decision HOF votes... not really a guy who clearly should be elected, but more a guy that most people would be willing to listen to arguments for his case to get in the hall in a chance to persuade voters. That kind of guy. He's iffy. Me personally, I want to see him in there.

[OleMissCub]

I wonder how much/if Raines' drug use affects his candidacy with some voters.

[BigbadB]

Maybe so, but James has him ranked as the 53 best offensive player of all time.

 

That's odd. I probably wouldn't rank Jeter in the top 53 offensive players for 2008, let alone all time.

[OleMissCub]

Maybe so, but James has him ranked as the 53 best offensive player of all time.

 

That's odd. I probably wouldn't rank Jeter in the top 53 offensive players for 2008, let alone all time.

 

It's just that certain formula that shows him at 53rd all-time:

 

One point for each 150 hits above 1500, limit 10.

One point for each .005 of batting average above .275, limit 9

One point for batting over .300

One point for each 100 runs over 900, limit 8.

One point for scoring more than .500 runs per game.

One point for scoring more than .644 runs per game.

One point for each 100 rbi's over 800, limit 8.

One point for driving in more than .500 runs per game.

One point for driving in more than .600 runs per game.

One point for each .025 of slugging percentage above .300, limit 10

One point for each .010 of on-base percentage above .300, limit 10

One point for each 200 home runs.

One point if home runs are more than 10% of hits.

One point if home runs are more than 20% of hits.

One point for each 200 extra base hits over 300, limit 5.

One point for each 200 walks over 300, limit 5.

One point for each 100 stolen bases, limit 5.

[apete6]

Here's my take:

 

In:

Henderson--The greatest of all time (his words, not mine, but I almost agree). The guy had speed and power, played a decent outfield. Revolutionized the idea of a "leadoff" guy, immediate impact on every game he played. Not to mention, the speech would be must see TV.

Blyleven--absolutely ridiculous this guy isn't in. If he played in NY or Boston he'd have been in on the first or second ballot

Tommy John--I know wins are overrated, but my God, the guy got that many after the surgery that bears his name. If he never gets in, they at least need to put him in for "contributors to the game" or something. Frankly, he probably deserves both.

McGwire--I know he roided up, but so did nearly everyone else in the 1990s. Also, had some damn good years in the late 80s/early 90s when he wasn't very big. One dimensional, but a legendary 1 dimension.

Raines--If not for Rickey, he'd be the pre-eminent leadoff man of the modern era. SB% is nuts. Again, playing in small market most of the time will hurt him.

 

2nd Tier Guys (Don't really deserve it, but wouldn't be a travesty):

 

Dawson--Turf in Montreal cost him the Hall of Fame. Sad stuff. One of the heroes of my youth. Would have 600 HRs if he was on roids.

Trammell--Solid, but unspectacular. Playing SS helps, but offense wasn't quite good enough.

Smith--Good closer, but neither revolutionary (Gossage/Sutter) or dominant enough (Rivera) and didn't compile enough saves (Hoffman)

 

3rd Tier Guys (At least have a case with a few people):

 

Jack Morris--Greatest postseason pitcher I've ever seen. Unbelievable mustache.

Murphy--Multiple MVPs on bad teams, but not a long enough peak. Killed his body in CF.

Grace--Hits are nice, but in era of power, he was easily replaceable.

Baines--Longevity nice, but didn't hang on long enough for 3,000 hits

Rice--Good player with nice, but short, peak. If he was on KC or Seattle, would have been an afterthought.

[mdwilla]

The extra 750 walks probably has something to do with it.

 

Most definitely. I would think that had Rickey Henderson not existed Tim Raines would be the premier lead off hitter of the 1980's and a case to be made for him entering the hall would be much easier to make. Really if you think about it, Rickey Henderson's excellence is what might keep Tim Raines out of the HOF. He would've been 4th all time in steals instead of 5th, and it would've been a difference of 131 steals instead of 598 between him and first place.

 

Raines does, however, hold the record for the highest stolen base percentage amongst retired players at 84.7%. Beltran currently has a SB% of 88%, that's why I worded it as "retired players" since Beltran's career is far from over and things could change... although he's got 275 steals compared to Raines' 808. To steal 808 bases and be successful roughly 85% of the time is unreal.

 

It's a tough call. He did however score more than 1,500 runs and while some people might think that feat isn't anything that should be hall worthy, take a look at the list of players who have score 1,500 runs or more...

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiruns3.shtml

 

You'll find some of the best players in baseball history on that list, even near the 1,500 mark.

 

Raines is one of those personal decision HOF votes... not really a guy who clearly should be elected, but more a guy that most people would be willing to listen to arguments for his case to get in the hall in a chance to persuade voters. That kind of guy. He's iffy. Me personally, I want to see him in there.

 

Paul Molitor and Ricky Henderson are the leadoff hitters I think of during the 80's.

 

Sometimes I forget about this board and the love affair with walks but I can't see Tim Raines in the hall over Andre Dawson . Dawson was a complete player. Finshed in the top three in MVP voting in the 80's 3 times. The only players who can match Dawsons 2,774 H, 438 home runs , 314 sb are some guys you might know Willie Mays and Barry Bonds. He also had a cannon an of arm and was a force in the clubhouse.

Raines was a coke head. I could run all day too if I was coked up. The guy wanted peolpe to call him "Rock". Leadoff hitter is not a postion is a joke that gets some mileage around here but it should go for the Hall too. I don't care where they hit in the order Dawsons numbers are better and he was a two way threat with the Trophy case to back it up. I'm glad the recent numbers from Hall voters agrees with me.

[OleMissCub]

I'll admit to being a Dawson homer. I realize his career OBP sucks and his OPS+ isn't all that great, and those are valid knocks against him that I'll gladly concede. However, if you look at his resume using the traditional stats that have been used to elect people to the Hall, it is hard to ignore his case:

 

2800 hits

440 HR

500 Doubles

1600 RBI

300 Stolen Bases

8 Gold Gloves (4 in CF)

MVP

ROY

[Clem Fandango]

Paul Molitor and Ricky Henderson are the leadoff hitters I think of during the 80's.

 

Raines was a coke head. I could run all day too if I was coked up.

 

Paul Molitor was a coke head, too. Should we relinquish his plaque?

[OleMissCub]

Paul Molitor and Ricky Henderson are the leadoff hitters I think of during the 80's.

 

Raines was a coke head. I could run all day too if I was coked up.

 

Paul Molitor was a coke head, too. Should we relinquish his plaque?

 

Character shouldn't matter much, if at all, when it comes to the Hall of Fame. Speaking of which, Albert Belle should be in the Hall of Fame. If Kirby got an injury discount, then so should Belle.

[mdwilla]

Paul Molitor and Ricky Henderson are the leadoff hitters I think of during the 80's.

 

Raines was a coke head. I could run all day too if I was coked up.

 

Paul Molitor was a coke head, too. Should we relinquish his plaque?

 

I was trying to prove a point that not only are Dawsons numbers better but he's also not a huge piece of Howry like "Rock" Raines.

 

I just think it's hilarious that the third best "leadoff hitter" of the 80's would get in over a guys who's numbers match up with Mays and Bonds. Peolpe loves to knock the leadoff hitter label and call SBs over rated expect when it comes Raines.

 

Is Kenny Lofton a HOF?

[CubinNY]

Maybe so, but James has him ranked as the 53 best offensive player of all time.

 

That's odd. I probably wouldn't rank Jeter in the top 53 offensive players for 2008, let alone all time.

What's odd about that? He was 34 in 2008.

 

The general hatred of Jeter that is exhibited by many here is borderline absurd.

[Rob]

Raines has 63 points of OBP on Dawson.

 

Dawson has 57 points of slugging on Raines.

 

But since we know OBP > SLUG, that works out easily in Raines' favor. Add in that he stole an extra 497 bases while only getting caught an additional 37 times... Yeah, Dawson probably has a defensive edge early in his career, but his knees were so shot at the end of his career his overall defensive value was right around league average... same as Raines.

[NewUserName]

Raines overcame his drug problem and still had a productive career afterward. Not very many guys in baseball can make that claim.

 

I think both Raines and Dawson suffer from not playing on championship teams. If the Expos would have at least won a couple of divisions during their time, it would improve their cases.

 

What percentage of votes do you have to have to stay on the ballot? I am not advocating this guy for the HOF but Daryl Evans isnt on the ballot anymore and Jim Rice may make the HOF. Proves just how stupid baseball writers are.

[Clem Fandango]

I was trying to prove a point that not only are Dawsons numbers better but he's also not a huge piece of Howry like "Rock" Raines.

 

I just think it's hilarious that the third best "leadoff hitter" of the 80's would get in over a guys who's numbers match up with Mays and Bonds. Peolpe loves to knock the leadoff hitter label and call SBs over rated expect when it comes Raines.

 

Is Kenny Lofton a HOF?

 

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how was Tim Rains a POS? Was it the cocaine addiction? Was he rude to the media. I seem to recall him being a fan favorite. Not trying to belittle your argument, I'm legitimately curious. Also, I think a case can be made for Lofton, though I don't think he'll get in

 

In an obsessive effort to compare Raines to Molitor that I now have, I compiled their numbers between the years of 1980 and 1990, the decade where you have claimed Molitor was the other premier lead off hitter, and also the decade when Raines got his start (technically his rookie year was 1981, he only had 20AB in 1980). I compiled all their offensive stats and averaged out all their math stats as well starting with 1980 and ending in 1990. Which was also the last year in which Molitor was primarily used as a defensive player. In 1991 he switched over to DH which allowed his career to be extended longer and keep him fresher.

 

Here are their stats. I bolded the stats which each player had more or was better at

 

Tim Raines

5305AB | 1598H | 931R | 273-2B | 81-3B | 96HR | 552RBI | 632SB | 775BB | .301AVG | .392OBP | .438SLG | .830OPS | 2321TB

(7 All Star Selections, 3 Top 10 MVP finishes, 1 Silver Slugger)

 

Paul Molitor

5041AB | 1540H | 892R | 284-2B | 46-3B | 116HR | 519RBI | 299SB | 538BB | .305AVG | .374OBP | .449SLG | .823OPS | 2264TB

(3 All Star Selections, 2 Top 10 MVP Finishes, 2 Silver Sluggers)

 

By this information you can determine a number of things.

 

1) Both players were very good. Don't get me wrong, Molitor was good.

2) The stats that Molitor was better at than Raines, he wasn't better by a staggering amount, whereas Raines trounced him in a few stats inversely speaking.

3) Otherwise, the players were very similar. Different styles of play, but similar offensive output in most instances. With Raines having a clear advantage in most areas.

 

Now if it were 1980 and you had to choose one player to be your leadoff hitter for the decade, I don't think you could make an incredibly wrong decision between the two. Both actually wound up in similar situations. Where Raines didn't start playing in full until 1981, leaving his 1980 year very small in sample size, Molitor missed in 1984 when he only had 20 or so more AB than Raines had in 1980. So the missed years almost equal out. Ironically, both also had cocaine addictions in the early 80's, and both kicked the habit shortly after getting addicted.

 

Molitor was an injury risk in the 80's though, he missed a lot of time. He average 115 games a season during that 11 year span, while Raines averaged 127. The reason Raines' average is so low is because of his 1980 season where he played 15 games and his rookie year where he played 88 games. Between 1982 and 1990 he average 144 games played per season. After 1990 though, Molitor's average games played per year when he became a DH till the end of his career was 143 games a season. Clearly, the DH having an effect on his health. Raines on the other hand, having played a decade on turf, average 99 games a season from 1991 till the end of his career.

 

Raines could've been a first ballot HOF'er if Montreal didn't eff up his body. In my opinion he was a better lead off hitter than Molitor in the 80's, and I think voters should take that into account when considering him for the Hall (they won't). If it weren't for Henderson and a small market team, Raines would be the premier lead off hitter of the 80's. Hands down.

 

Raines was awesome. Whew, done.