Good HBT analysis of the last 2 postseason debacles

[UMFan83]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-corpse-on-the-dissecting-table/

 

Hurts to read a lot of this, but he makes some good points. An excerpt:

 

The decision to treat players differently because the postseason is coming up sends the team some signals. First, it loudly pronounces to the players that the upcoming games are fundamentally different from everything they've experienced before. Second, it implies that they can't be trusted to win unless they approach this somehow differently.

 

If you think the team can just keep playing as they have all year and win, there's no need for any fancy adjusts on the verge of the postseason. Instead, these notions can make a team self-conscious. That's the single worst thing that can happen to a team. If you have to think about what you're doing, it won't be done properly. It should come naturally.

 

To make an odd analogy, I once asked my mother where the "E" key is on a typewriter. She's been a secretary most of her adult life and can type over 100 words a minute. Because I made her think, she was caught flatfooted and had to go over all the keys, finger-by-finger, in her mind before answering. That's Piniella's Cubs in the playoffs.

[KingCubsFan]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-corpse-on-the-dissecting-table/

 

Hurts to read a lot of this, but he makes some good points. An excerpt:

 

The decision to treat players differently because the postseason is coming up sends the team some signals. First, it loudly pronounces to the players that the upcoming games are fundamentally different from everything they've experienced before. Second, it implies that they can't be trusted to win unless they approach this somehow differently.

 

If you think the team can just keep playing as they have all year and win, there's no need for any fancy adjusts on the verge of the postseason. Instead, these notions can make a team self-conscious. That's the single worst thing that can happen to a team. If you have to think about what you're doing, it won't be done properly. It should come naturally.

 

To make an odd analogy, I once asked my mother where the "E" key is on a typewriter. She's been a secretary most of her adult life and can type over 100 words a minute. Because I made her think, she was caught flatfooted and had to go over all the keys, finger-by-finger, in her mind before answering. That's Piniella's Cubs in the playoffs.

Link to Piniella telling players to change their approach/change their roles before the playoffs?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Link to Piniella telling players to change their approach/change their roles before the playoffs?

 

For the last two years, Lou Piniella has been consistent in his priorities heading into the postseason. He wants his team to be prepared physically. This year, he rested several starters and largely punted a few games outright.

 

He let bullpen potluck do all the pitching in the final day of the 2008 season. Seven men pitched, several of whom didn't even make the postseason roster, in order to keep his starters healthy. He benched several of his hitters in the days leading up to the playoffs, most notably one rain-soaked day in Shea Stadium when he rested almost all of his main bats. Similarly, at the very end of 2007, he approached the end of a season as a way to prepare his pitchers for the beginning of the playoffs.

[KingCubsFan]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

[Butterscup1679666578]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

[UMFan83]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

 

No, but when it happens two years in a row, it can't outright be dismissed.

[Butterscup1679666578]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

 

No, but when it happens two years in a row, it can't outright be dismissed.

 

I suppose. Last year's team really wasn't that good though.

[anabiono]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

 

No, but when it happens two years in a row, it can't outright be dismissed.

 

I suppose. Last year's team really wasn't that good though.

 

maybe not that good, but they were better than the diamondbacks

 

choke choke choke

 

without a doubt in my mind, these last six games are folding games because of pressure

[David]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

 

No, but when it happens two years in a row, it can't outright be dismissed.

 

I suppose. Last year's team really wasn't that good though.

 

maybe not that good, but they were better than the diamondbacks

 

choke choke choke

 

without a doubt in my mind, these last six games are folding games because of pressure

 

Well, that settles it, then.

[Derwood]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

[The Other 15]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

I'm not sure. Before the Cubs, the national media used the playoff failures by the Red Sox to play up the long history of falling short. Since the Red Sox won in 2004, the whole "umpteenth year without a WS" has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Cubs . This wasn't a big issue to the Cubs in 1984 or 89. As a matter of fact both years the media used 1969 as the indicator of how long it's been since the Cubs were that good.

[anabiono]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

 

No, but when it happens two years in a row, it can't outright be dismissed.

 

I suppose. Last year's team really wasn't that good though.

 

maybe not that good, but they were better than the diamondbacks

 

choke choke choke

 

without a doubt in my mind, these last six games are folding games because of pressure

 

Well, that settles it, then.

 

i know right, since i very clearly indicated that it was my opinion and my opinion alone, but go ahead and take it any way you want

[SouthSideRyan]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

I'm not sure. Before the Cubs, the national media used the playoff failures by the Red Sox to play up the long history of falling short. Since the Red Sox won in 2004, the whole "umpteenth year without a WS" has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Cubs . This wasn't a big issue to the Cubs in 1984 or 89. As a matter of fact both years the media used 1969 as the indicator of how long it's been since the Cubs were that good.

 

So how'd the Red Sox win it in '04 with that on their shoulders.

[rawaction]

The Cubs may have been pressing, but it's not because of the last week of the season and it's not because of trying to end a 100 year drought.

[UMFan83]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

I'm not sure. Before the Cubs, the national media used the playoff failures by the Red Sox to play up the long history of falling short. Since the Red Sox won in 2004, the whole "umpteenth year without a WS" has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Cubs . This wasn't a big issue to the Cubs in 1984 or 89. As a matter of fact both years the media used 1969 as the indicator of how long it's been since the Cubs were that good.

 

So how'd the Red Sox win it in '04 with that on their shoulders.

 

They "Cowboyed up"

[Derwood]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

I'm not sure. Before the Cubs, the national media used the playoff failures by the Red Sox to play up the long history of falling short. Since the Red Sox won in 2004, the whole "umpteenth year without a WS" has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Cubs . This wasn't a big issue to the Cubs in 1984 or 89. As a matter of fact both years the media used 1969 as the indicator of how long it's been since the Cubs were that good.

 

So how'd the Red Sox win it in '04 with that on their shoulders.

 

They "Cowboyed up"

 

and had Jesus playing CF

[Hairyducked Idiot]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

I'm not sure. Before the Cubs, the national media used the playoff failures by the Red Sox to play up the long history of falling short. Since the Red Sox won in 2004, the whole "umpteenth year without a WS" has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Cubs . This wasn't a big issue to the Cubs in 1984 or 89. As a matter of fact both years the media used 1969 as the indicator of how long it's been since the Cubs were that good.

 

So how'd the Red Sox win it in '04 with that on their shoulders.

 

Right or wrong, the theory that pressure is a drag on chances isn't a theory that it's impossible for a team with the pressure to win, only harder.

[The Other 15]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

I'm not sure. Before the Cubs, the national media used the playoff failures by the Red Sox to play up the long history of falling short. Since the Red Sox won in 2004, the whole "umpteenth year without a WS" has fallen squarely on the shoulders of Cubs . This wasn't a big issue to the Cubs in 1984 or 89. As a matter of fact both years the media used 1969 as the indicator of how long it's been since the Cubs were that good.

 

So how'd the Red Sox win it in '04 with that on their shoulders.

 

Right or wrong, the theory that pressure is a drag on chances isn't a theory that it's impossible for a team with the pressure to win, only harder.

Right. It's not to say it's impossible to win but it is another thing that most teams don't have to deal with as a distraction. The playoffs are fluky and hard enough. Like the RedSox, just keep making playoffs and you're bound to win it once.

[KingCubsFan]

so the Dodgers, Rays, Red Sox and Phillies didn't have the same pressure?

No, no franchise in any major sport has to play with the pressure of the Cubs when they get to the postseason.

[salukifudd]

The Cubs may have been pressing, but it's not because of the last week of the season and it's not because of trying to end a 100 year drought.

 

This is true.

[TruffleShuffle]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

 

i think they choked, but that has more to do with HOW they lost than the fact that they lost. ryan dempster has a bad start? could just be bad luck or bad timing. but he walked more guys than he'd walked in any start since the '90s. struggling to throw strikes worse than you've struggled at any point in the last 10 years suggests to me that you're feeling the pressure and not responding well to it. same thing with game 2 - every infielder made an error, including an excellent fielder (lee), a good one (ramirez) and two guys who, while not great defensively, are pretty sure-handed (theriot, derosa).

 

i don't know that it was what piniella did down the stretch, resting guys too much or whatever - i bet you can find lots of good teams that clinched early, gave their guys plenty of rest and then played very well in the playoffs. but i do suspect that piniella had something to do with the team being too tight and too high-strung to perform well in the playoffs.

[Brett]

The Cubs may have been pressing, but it's not because of the last week of the season and it's not because of trying to end a 100 year drought.

 

This is true.

 

What? Of course that's part of the equation. You think the players don't know the history? You think they don't want to be part of the team that FINALLY does it? Heck, DeRosa even said (on his blog?) after the playoffs that they wanted so badly to finally do it.

 

Just because they individually haven't been around for 100 years doesn't mean it doesn't enter their minds.

[SouthSideRyan]

The Cubs may have been pressing, but it's not because of the last week of the season and it's not because of trying to end a 100 year drought.

 

This is true.

 

What? Of course that's part of the equation. You think the players don't know the history? You think they don't want to be part of the team that FINALLY does it? Heck, DeRosa even said (on his blog?) after the playoffs that they wanted so badly to finally do it.

 

 

Every player in the playoffs wants terribly to win. They wouldn't be professional athletes if they thought otherwise. I don't buy the pressing cause of 100 years.

[gflore34]

Without question they were scared sh*tless, Aram, Lee(although he had a decent series) and even Soriano all whiffed on crappy pitches they would have smoked in the regular season. The unfortunate aspect is next year' playoff team is going have it worse until they get that first win under their belts, once that happens they'll play much better.

[jersey cubs fan]

That's different than what the original quote said. I doubt Piniella was the only manager resting his starters. And do you really blame him for going easy on Harden (obviously injured) Zambrano (coming off injury/probably injured) and Dempster (threw alot more innings than the previous year) and resting people like Marmol (too many apperances) and Wood (injury history).

Why do people keep trying to pin the playoff demise on someone? The whole team choked, period. They couldn't handle the pressure and folded. It was a team-wide failure.

 

I don't think a bad three games means the team folded under pressure, but that's just me.

 

i think they choked, but that has more to do with HOW they lost than the fact that they lost. ryan dempster has a bad start? could just be bad luck or bad timing. but he walked more guys than he'd walked in any start since the '90s. struggling to throw strikes worse than you've struggled at any point in the last 10 years suggests to me that you're feeling the pressure and not responding well to it. same thing with game 2 - every infielder made an error, including an excellent fielder (lee), a good one (ramirez) and two guys who, while not great defensively, are pretty sure-handed (theriot, derosa).

 

i don't know that it was what piniella did down the stretch, resting guys too much or whatever - i bet you can find lots of good teams that clinched early, gave their guys plenty of rest and then played very well in the playoffs. but i do suspect that piniella had something to do with the team being too tight and too high-strung to perform well in the playoffs.

I agree

I think weird things like Fukudome to the 2 hole were more questionable than resting people. He overdid the rest a bit too much for my liking, as I was really hoping they'd beat MIL and put the Mets in the wild card. But relievers pitching on Sunday, the starting pitchers being limited, guys not playing in the rain, I had no problem with that stuff and don't see how it could be blamed.