Ned Yost Fired (Merged)

[SouthSideRyan]

lawl at Cinci not top young talent in the past.

 

Brandon Larson, Felipe Lopez(who was a very good prospect and it's insulting to list him with hopper), Wily Mo, Kearns, Brandon Claussen, Adam Dunn, Encarnacion, Harang, I dunno Luke Hudson? I feel like I'm forgetting a pitcher or 2 over the past few years.

 

And Homer Bailey sucks.

[Soul]

I would say it's not a carbon copy Reds team, but there are plenty of similarities to raise doubts about their future. They've got a couple good young players, but they are hardly poised for great things.

 

Do they have the resources to go after FA's? I figured if they hired Dusty as manager they would be proactive in trying to go out and get some veteran talent to mix with the youngsters.

Neifi's available.

[UMFan83]

lawl at Cinci not top young talent in the past.

 

Brandon Larson, Felipe Lopez(who was a very good prospect and it's insulting to list him with hopper), Wily Mo, Kearns, Brandon Claussen, Adam Dunn, Encarnacion, Harang, I dunno Luke Hudson? I feel like I'm forgetting a pitcher or 2 over the past few years.

 

And Homer Bailey sucks.

 

Ryan Wagner was supposed to be pretty good wasn't he? Brandon Phillips even though he came up with the Indians

[MasterBlaster]

They need a catcher, I bet the Reds go after Ivan Rodriguez this offseason. He's a FA right?

[SouthSideRyan]

lawl at Cinci not top young talent in the past.

 

Brandon Larson, Felipe Lopez(who was a very good prospect and it's insulting to list him with hopper), Wily Mo, Kearns, Brandon Claussen, Adam Dunn, Encarnacion, Harang, I dunno Luke Hudson? I feel like I'm forgetting a pitcher or 2 over the past few years.

 

And Homer Bailey sucks.

 

Ryan Wagner was supposed to be pretty good wasn't he? Brandon Phillips even though he came up with the Indians

 

Wagner's who I was trying to come up with.

[Jehrico]

Net results this year are the same, but this wasn't about this year. Kearns lost his prospect status quite awhile ago, and they never had the pitching prospects to go with those two hitters (Harang? Never a top-notch prospect).

 

What makes you think next year is going to be any different? Let's be honest here, few of us heard of Johnny Cueto before ST, and it looks like the early season flashes were just that - flashes. No one saw Edinson Volquez coming (or at least being nearly as good as he has been), but Homer Bailey is closing in on bust status.

 

And you said the Reds hadn't had big hitting prospects in recent years, but the Kearns/Dunn hype isn't that far in the past. Kearns wasn't projected as high as Bruce, but Votto isn't going to be Dunn, that's for sure.

 

If you look at the whole, there not much more cause for optimism going from 2008 to 2009 than there was going into 2006 or 2007. You seem to be insinuating that this year was the foundation for some sort of renaissance for the Reds. I don't think that's the case at all.

First, I'm not talking about 2009, I'm talking the next several years. Second, I think Jocketty is a much better evaluator of talent than his predecessor. He's got a better track record of keeping the right guys and making good acquisitions. 2009 will probably be more of the same though, especially if the ownership won't let Jocketty put in his own manager. I think they've got some better times coming from 2010 and beyond if Walt makes the right choices on who to keep, and who to use in a big trade. I never insinuated they were lined up for 2009 though.

[Jehrico]

lawl at Cinci not top young talent in the past.

 

Brandon Larson, Felipe Lopez(who was a very good prospect and it's insulting to list him with hopper), Wily Mo, Kearns, Brandon Claussen, Adam Dunn, Encarnacion, Harang, I dunno Luke Hudson? I feel like I'm forgetting a pitcher or 2 over the past few years.

 

And Homer Bailey sucks.

Larson, Lopez, Clausen, Encarnacion (you're joking with Encarnacion in this list, right?), Harang, and Hudson were never that great of prospects. Pena was wildly overrated. Kearns was the only other prospect on the level with Bruce and Votto who turned into a bust.

[Guest]

lawl at Cinci not top young talent in the past.

 

Brandon Larson, Felipe Lopez(who was a very good prospect and it's insulting to list him with hopper), Wily Mo, Kearns, Brandon Claussen, Adam Dunn, Encarnacion, Harang, I dunno Luke Hudson? I feel like I'm forgetting a pitcher or 2 over the past few years.

 

And Homer Bailey sucks.

Larson, Lopez, Clausen, Encarnacion (you're joking with Encarnacion in this list, right?), Harang, and Hudson were never that great of prospects. Pena was wildly overrated. Kearns was the only other prospect on the level with Bruce and Votto who turned into a bust.

 

Joey Votto was BA's 44th best prospect in 2008 and 43 in 2007. Felipe Lopez was 32 in 2001, 38 in 2000 and 67 in 1999. Edwin Encarnacion was the 56th best prospect in 2005. Ryan Wagner (the guy SSR was confusing for Luke Hudson) ranked 46 in 2004. Wily Mo Peña was the only one who wasn't that close to Votto's mid-40s rank - he was 87 in 2003, 65 in 2002 and 88 in 2000.

[XZero771679666304]

lawl at Cinci not top young talent in the past.

 

Brandon Larson, Felipe Lopez(who was a very good prospect and it's insulting to list him with hopper), Wily Mo, Kearns, Brandon Claussen, Adam Dunn, Encarnacion, Harang, I dunno Luke Hudson? I feel like I'm forgetting a pitcher or 2 over the past few years.

 

And Homer Bailey sucks.

Larson, Lopez, Clausen, Encarnacion (you're joking with Encarnacion in this list, right?), Harang, and Hudson were never that great of prospects. Pena was wildly overrated. Kearns was the only other prospect on the level with Bruce and Votto who turned into a bust.

 

Joey Votto was BA's 44th best prospect in 2008 and 43 in 2007. Felipe Lopez was 32 in 2001, 38 in 2000 and 67 in 1999. Edwin Encarnacion was the 56th best prospect in 2005. Ryan Wagner (the guy SSR was confusing for Luke Hudson) ranked 46 in 2004. Wily Mo Peña was the only one who wasn't that close to Votto's mid-40s rank - he was 87 in 2003, 65 in 2002 and 88 in 2000.

 

Yeah, the Reds have maintained a stable of top prospects pretty consistently over the past 5-10 years. That's what happens when you lose a lot of games.

 

Really, Jay Bruce is the only one that stands out much.

 

But the key here is that either the prospects don't pan out, leave, or there isn't much of a veteran supporting cast. Now that Harang has regressed severely and Dunn is gone, the impact of guys like Bruce, Votto and Volquez is really going to be minimized.

 

Really, I don't see the Reds being appreciably better anytime in the next 3-4 years.

[Jehrico]

Yeah, the Reds have maintained a stable of top prospects pretty consistently over the past 5-10 years. That's what happens when you lose a lot of games.

 

Really, Jay Bruce is the only one that stands out much.

 

But the key here is that either the prospects don't pan out, leave, or there isn't much of a veteran supporting cast. Now that Harang has regressed severely and Dunn is gone, the impact of guys like Bruce, Votto and Volquez is really going to be minimized.

Really, I don't see the Reds being appreciably better anytime in the next 3-4 years.

That's why I think they have a better shot of actually seeing some of that promise come to fruition over the next few years...Previous management proved repeatedly that they were incapable of going out and getting the right supporting cast to surround those guys with. Jocketty has proven he has far better judgement and that he can get a pretty good piece or two from the reject list every year. Krivsky or his predecessor always struck out in that regard. Maybe I think too highly of Jocketty's judgement, but that's why I actually think Cincy poses a sustainable threat in this division from 3-5 years and beyond if they play their cards right.

[mul21]

It sounds like there is some discontent down here between LaRussa and management and Duncan is in the last year of his deal. It wouldn't shock me to see those 2 end up in Cincy with Jocketty next year. Not saying it's a high probability to happen, just throwing it out there based on the relationship LaRussa and Jocketty have.

[dew1679666265]

I don't know, those 1882 Red Stockings were pretty awesome with their young talent.

 

they're a little thin when it comes to pitching, and frankly, i'm a little worried about will white's arm after tossing 480 innings and 52 complete games.

 

Sounds like Dusty's already had a hold of that pitching staff.

[dew1679666265]

joe sheehan has a nice article about how last night was a great example of how awful yost has been.

 

Yost elected to walk Howard to face Pat Burrell. This was... well, it strains my vocabulary to find the right word for it. Howard cannot hit left-handers, and would be a platoon player if performance mattered anywhere near as much as reputation does. Or if he had a competent manager. Howard is at .228/.313/.458 against lefties in his career, .212/.287/.410 this year. Howard. Can't. Hit. Lefties. Shouse, on the other hand, is in the major leagues for exactly one reason: lefties can't hit him, to the tune of .175/.192/.289 this year, and .211/.263/.325 for his career, which includes a bunch of years when he was barely a major leaguer. Manuel sending Howard up against Shouse was a continuation of a theme for the Phillies: not hitting for Howard when he has little chance of doing something good. He was giving Yost an out, and Yost gave it right back.

 

That set up Shouse versus Pat Burrell, which cried out for a right-handed reliever. After all, Shouse is a pure specialist (.307/.390/.455 vs. RHB career; .293/.371/.446 this year). The only way walking Howard even might make sense is if Yost were to bring in a righty to try and get a double play out of Burrell. Burrell doesn't have the big platoon splits he showed earlier in his career—he's a dangerous hitter against both kinds of hurlers—but leaving Shouse in to face him was asking for trouble.

 

Think about this for a second. Yost had a 481 OPS pitcher facing a 697 OPS hitter. He elected to issue an intentional walk in that situation to allow an 817 OPS pitcher to face a 905 OPS hitter with an additional runner on base. That's when you start looking around the roof of the stadium for snipers, because gunpoint is the only place where that kind of decision makes sense.

 

i had to read this a couple of times to make sure i wasn't missing something. i didn't think anyone, let alone a major league manager, could be stupid enough to IBB a lefty batter against a lefty specialist so that the lefty specialist can face a RH batter who hammers lefties.

 

It almost seems like Yost just didn't care anymore. Either that or he's literally [expletive].

 

Or maybe it's both.

 

This was so far out there and sounded so ridiculous I had to look into it a bit more.

 

In fairness to Yost(I can't believe I just said that), Burrell batted .181 in August and he's batting .194 in September. His OBP is under .300 since July. Conversely, Howard is batting .354 in September with a .917 slugging percentage and has been spraying the balls to all parts of the field against both RHP and LHP . So you can see why he would rather face Burrell than the hot hitting Ryan Howard.

 

The choice here was between career numbers versus recent numbers. Yost went with the recent numbers and it didn't work this time.

 

Still. This doesn't take into account the studlines of Shouse against LHP.

 

That's far and away the most egregious part of it. It's a pretty stupid move either way, but it's at least understandable with the recent numbers and if he had a righty (or lefty without extreme splits) on the mound.

 

Given that he had a pitcher who specializes in getting lefties out, it's senseless to walk any left to get to a righty.

I wonder if he said "to hell with it" and gave up.

 

I heard Melvin had called him in at one point and asked Ned what he thought the problem was, and Ned said "I don't know. I really don't know." That's the talk around here anyway -- that when Ned had that conversation with Melvin, they both realized it was over.

 

Very strong possibility there. And I, like others have said, am shocked that Ned Yost worked for years under Bobby Cox. Their philosophies seem so much different.

[SouthSideRyan]

Looking back on the Wayne Krivsky era it really wasn't that bad. The Kearns/Lopez for injured bullpen trash deal didn't even wind up burning them much, if at all. It was still a bad deal, because those guys had more value than that, but in retrospect it turned out fine.

 

Krivsky added Brandon Phillips and Josh Hamilton for FREE. Then he picked up an ace starter in return for Hamilton. Yeah, Hamilton turned out to be a stud, but Cinci was more well-equipped to lose a stud OF then to dig up the grave of Jimmy Haynes for their rotation. He got a couple solid years out of Hatteberg for peanuts. Got a great half season from Keppinger for peanuts.

[soapy]

late to this thread, but i was actually in Milwaukee Monday and Tuesday. Monday night i was at a sports bar when a local news crew came in looking for fan interviews on reaction to the news. i told them i'm actually a Cubs fan but they wanted my opinion anyway. i admit it was pretty satisfying soaking in the Brewers demise and getting interviewed on television in the process.

 

i never did see the news though so i don't even know if they used my interview. in my own mind, they did, and it was glorious.

[dew1679666265]

Looking back on the Wayne Krivsky era it really wasn't that bad. The Kearns/Lopez for injured bullpen trash deal didn't even wind up burning them much, if at all. It was still a bad deal, because those guys had more value than that, but in retrospect it turned out fine.

 

Krivsky added Brandon Phillips and Josh Hamilton for FREE. Then he picked up an ace starter in return for Hamilton. Yeah, Hamilton turned out to be a stud, but Cinci was more well-equipped to lose a stud OF then to dig up the grave of Jimmy Haynes for their rotation. He got a couple solid years out of Hatteberg for peanuts. Got a great half season from Keppinger for peanuts.

 

The problem is, Krivsky hired Dusty - which negates much of the good he did. :D

 

Seriously though, Krivsky did do some good things in Cincy and may have pointed them in the right direction.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah, I forgot to add at the end that hiring Dusty was an unforgivable mistake, but just pointing out that Krivsky wasn't the guy with the helmet on his head we all thought he was.

[Jehrico]

Yeah, I forgot to add at the end that hiring Dusty was an unforgivable mistake, but just pointing out that Krivsky wasn't the guy with the helmet on his head we all thought he was.

He certainly wasn't Ed Lynch bad...I equate him more with Andy MacPhail. MacPhail got us going in the right direction from when we were a truly incompetent organization, top to bottom, but he wasn't the guy who was going to put us over the top. That's Krivsky...he'll ad some nice pieces, but doesn't have all of the answers.

[SouthSideRyan]

No GM has all the answers. It's a legit question to ask who's responsible for the Cardinals diamond in the rough type players Jocketty or the TLR/Duncan monster.

[Jehrico]

No GM has all the answers. It's a legit question to ask who's responsible for the Cardinals diamond in the rough type players Jocketty or the TLR/Duncan monster.

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the answer to that question, Jocketty brought TLR to St Louis (so either he brought the players, or he brought the guy who brought the players), while Krivsky brought Dusty to Cincy. Accumulating the right players is one thing. Accumulating the right players and then surrounding them with someone who preaches a sound organizational philosophy and sets the conditions for them to succeed is something else.

[SouthSideRyan]

No GM has all the answers. It's a legit question to ask who's responsible for the Cardinals diamond in the rough type players Jocketty or the TLR/Duncan monster.

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the answer to that question, Jocketty brought TLR to St Louis (so either he brought the players, or he brought the guy who brought the players), while Krivsky brought Dusty to Cincy. Accumulating the right players is one thing. Accumulating the right players and then surrounding them with someone who preaches a sound organizational philosophy and sets the conditions for them to succeed is something else.

 

Give me the GM who accumulates the right players and puts a blind 6 year old in charge over the GM who signs Richie Sexson and Jose Vidro long term while putting vintage Dick Williams in charge(choose your manager here)

 

Talent wins out, even in spite of a clueless fool like Dusty Baker in charger.

[Jehrico]

No GM has all the answers. It's a legit question to ask who's responsible for the Cardinals diamond in the rough type players Jocketty or the TLR/Duncan monster.

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the answer to that question, Jocketty brought TLR to St Louis (so either he brought the players, or he brought the guy who brought the players), while Krivsky brought Dusty to Cincy. Accumulating the right players is one thing. Accumulating the right players and then surrounding them with someone who preaches a sound organizational philosophy and sets the conditions for them to succeed is something else.

 

Give me the GM who accumulates the right players and puts a blind 6 year old in charge over the GM who signs Richie Sexson and Jose Vidro long term while putting vintage Dick Williams in charge(choose your manager here)

 

Talent wins out, even in spite of a clueless fool like Dusty Baker in charger.

That's an extreme example. How do you explain 2004 then? That team was arguably better than this years. I agree that talent is more important. However, when you're talking young talent, like in Cincy, if you surround those prospects with people who have a poor approach to the game, it can prevent those prospects from developing. Look at how long we went without developing a solid positional prospect. It wasn't because we never drafted anyone with ML talent from year to year, it was the wrong organizational guys who weren't developing them. People with Dusty's philosophy can ruin them. Take Dunn for example, if he came up with Dusty as a coach, and he adopted that hitting philosophy (i.e. don't walk...), where would he be today? I was pointing at more than the manager with that comment, but the manager is certainly a major part of that equation. Talent is more important once that talent is developed, but that doesn't mean the manager and the rest of the organization has no impact.

[Jehrico]

No GM has all the answers. It's a legit question to ask who's responsible for the Cardinals diamond in the rough type players Jocketty or the TLR/Duncan monster.

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the answer to that question, Jocketty brought TLR to St Louis (so either he brought the players, or he brought the guy who brought the players), while Krivsky brought Dusty to Cincy. Accumulating the right players is one thing. Accumulating the right players and then surrounding them with someone who preaches a sound organizational philosophy and sets the conditions for them to succeed is something else.

 

Give me the GM who accumulates the right players and puts a blind 6 year old in charge over the GM who signs Richie Sexson and Jose Vidro long term while putting vintage Dick Williams in charge(choose your manager here)

 

Talent wins out, even in spite of a clueless fool like Dusty Baker in charger.

 

Another example is to look at the Walks! thread under Cubs discussions. It's obvious our team is better because of the difference between Lou and Perry than Dusty and his crew.

[SouthSideRyan]

No GM has all the answers. It's a legit question to ask who's responsible for the Cardinals diamond in the rough type players Jocketty or the TLR/Duncan monster.

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the answer to that question, Jocketty brought TLR to St Louis (so either he brought the players, or he brought the guy who brought the players), while Krivsky brought Dusty to Cincy. Accumulating the right players is one thing. Accumulating the right players and then surrounding them with someone who preaches a sound organizational philosophy and sets the conditions for them to succeed is something else.

 

Give me the GM who accumulates the right players and puts a blind 6 year old in charge over the GM who signs Richie Sexson and Jose Vidro long term while putting vintage Dick Williams in charge(choose your manager here)

 

Talent wins out, even in spite of a clueless fool like Dusty Baker in charger.

 

Another example is to look at the Walks! thread under Cubs discussions. It's obvious our team is better because of the difference between Lou and Perry than Dusty and his crew.

 

And yet Lou and Perry wouldn't have been able to make chicken salad out of the chicken Howry we ran out there in '06. Dusty's problem relating to the '06 team was that it was a team with his fingerprints all over it. If Hendry made smart acquisitions and didn't go with a bunch of hackers that fit Dusty's style they wouldn't have been epicly bad.

[Jehrico]

No GM has all the answers. It's a legit question to ask who's responsible for the Cardinals diamond in the rough type players Jocketty or the TLR/Duncan monster.

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the answer to that question, Jocketty brought TLR to St Louis (so either he brought the players, or he brought the guy who brought the players), while Krivsky brought Dusty to Cincy. Accumulating the right players is one thing. Accumulating the right players and then surrounding them with someone who preaches a sound organizational philosophy and sets the conditions for them to succeed is something else.

 

Give me the GM who accumulates the right players and puts a blind 6 year old in charge over the GM who signs Richie Sexson and Jose Vidro long term while putting vintage Dick Williams in charge(choose your manager here)

 

Talent wins out, even in spite of a clueless fool like Dusty Baker in charger.

 

Another example is to look at the Walks! thread under Cubs discussions. It's obvious our team is better because of the difference between Lou and Perry than Dusty and his crew.

 

And yet Lou and Perry wouldn't have been able to make chicken salad out of the chicken Howry we ran out there in '06. Dusty's problem relating to the '06 team was that it was a team with his fingerprints all over it. If Hendry made smart acquisitions and didn't go with a bunch of hackers that fit Dusty's style they wouldn't have been epicly bad.

Your examples are horrible. The best hitting coaches in the world couldn't turn me into an Albert Pujols-esque hitter. The best pitching coach in the world couldn't get Howry to dominate this year. Quit looking at individual extremes and look at teams (this is a team sport, last I checked). There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that will tell you that Lou, Perry, and the philosophy they're teaching has had a positive impact on the ability of our teams offense to get on base and score runs. Also, as far as Dusty and the '06 team, what about '04? All of Dusty's teams failed to live up to expectations except for a couple of months of the 03 team.