Rank the Cubs Team MVP

[jersey cubs fan]

He plays more than anyone else on that list, his defense is good enough, and he's productive enough to be the starting SS on the most productive team in the majors.

 

5th on the team in games played.

 

The other two points are worthless. We're talking about ranking MVPs, not whether a guy should be on a team. His defense should not be listed as a reason to defend ranking top 5 in MVP, neither should his production.

 

 

For those who want him ahead of Ramirez. Ramirez plays just as much, is a better defender, and when you rank the Cubs positions against the league, they are 3rd at third and 7th at SS.

 

I would put Dempster, Zambrano, Ramirez, Soto, DeRosa, Soriano ahead of Theriot without batting an eye. Edmonds hasn't been around long enough to warrent such a high ranking, but he competes with Theriot for honorable mention.

[sneakypower]

WPA:

 

1. Ramirez

2. Dempster

3. Zambrano

4. Edmonds

5. Soriano

 

it would stand to reason WPA's kinda awful for determining such things

[Rob]

Looks like I made a mistake before...

 

That Johnson - Edmonds platoon has been pretty productive.

 

Aramis Ramirez - 2.41

Carlos Marmol - 2.25

Ryan Dempster - 2.01 (2.76 Pitching, -0.75 Batting)

Carlos Zambrano - 1.93 (1.41 Pitching, 0.52 Batting)

Jim Edmonds - 1.47

Alfonso Soriano - 1.45

Derrek Lee - 1.34

Kosuke Fukudome - 1.08

Mark DeRosa - 0.93

Ted Lilly - 0.74

Mike Fontenot - 0.68

Rich Harden - 0.67

Reed Johnson - 0.66

[bukie]

By 2008 win shares:

 

1. Zambrano

2 (tie). Ramirez

2 (tie). Soto

4. DeRosa

5. Fukudome

6. Dempster

7 (tie). Soriano

7 (tie). Lee

8. Theriot

9. Edmonds

10. Johnson

 

If we take the Edmonds/Johnson platoon as one, they'd be at the top. And all 10 of these players are within 8 WS of each other, so it's not as if there's been one clearly most valuable player on the team.

 

Others within 10 of Z: Wood, Fontenot, Lilly

[Ding Dong Johnson]

and DeRosa leads the WARP3 race...

[third eye]

By 2008 win shares:

 

1. Zambrano

2 (tie). Ramirez

2 (tie). Soto

4. DeRosa

5. Fukudome

6. Dempster

7 (tie). Soriano

7 (tie). Lee

8. Theriot

9. Edmonds

10. Johnson

 

If we take the Edmonds/Johnson platoon as one, they'd be at the top. And all 10 of these players are within 8 WS of each other, so it's not as if there's been one clearly most valuable player on the team.

 

Others within 10 of Z: Wood, Fontenot, Lilly

 

 

Damn straight. Very surprised to see Fukudome that high. Guess his OBP is still propping up the RC.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

This thread is evidence of the depth of this team. There isn't a clear cut MVP. This team isn't winning because it has one or two superstars; they win because up and down the line-up, everyone is solid and the pitching rotation is very good as well.

[weatherdood]

This thread is evidence of the depth of this team. There isn't a clear cut MVP. This team isn't winning because it has one or two superstars; they win because up and down the line-up, everyone is solid and the pitching rotation is very good as well.

 

Very very very well said. =D> =D> =D>

[shnsajax]

Pretty much what I was thinking. Ten people would give ten different answers.

[Vanilla Ice]

Theriot has the lowest OPS of any of the starters, and doesn't play great defense. He is not in our top 5

[Iowa Cub]

Reed Johnson is nowhere near the conversation for MVP

 

Again, it's most valuable, not most underrated or overlooked or most-clutch or anything else like that...

 

 

See pet peeve thread :evil:

 

But yea, here's my list... :thumbsup:

 

Dempster

Z

Soriano

Ramirez

Geo

Switch Dempster and Z and I agree with you, Z a little in front due to his abilities at the dish. Honorable mention: The chick in your avatar!

[BigSlick]

1. Zambrano

2. Soriano

3. Dempster

4. Soto

5. Edmonds

 

It might not be a popular choice, but I would think Theriot needs to be in the top 5. He has been consistently good all year while playing every day, unlike Soriano, Soto, and Edmunds.

 

I could not agree more. When I saw the list of the original 5, my first thought was that Theriot was not there. He does play every day and his defense is good. He's often and unsung hero, not a lot of flash, but I don't think the Cubs are where they are without him.

 

He doesn't play everyday, his defense isn't that good, and he's only marginally productive.

 

He plays a premium defensive position at about an average level (check any advanced metric you like, he's not terrible defensively) and has an OBP darn near .400.

 

I don't care about the rest, thats enough to make him more than 'marginally' productive.

[Old Style]

There is an obvious choice and I can't believe no one has mentioned him yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here it comes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you ready?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason Marquis

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm kidding. :D

[Vanilla Ice]

that lead-up got me intrigued

[cubweiser03]

I love this team.

LOADED

[SoonerCubFan]

This thread is evidence of the depth of this team. There isn't a clear cut MVP. This team isn't winning because it has one or two superstars; they win because up and down the line-up, everyone is solid and the pitching rotation is very good as well.

 

Absolutely. So many pieces have come together in a near-perfect blend of roles, with very few "career years".

 

I'd have to go with:

 

1. Soto (Silver Slugger likely and #2 Team ERA)

2. Dempster (has made the biggest difference to the rotation)

3. Soriano (a whole different team with him playing)

[inari]

I can't be the only person that things Soto is definitely the #1 choice for MVP of the team.

[RedFlash]

This thread is evidence of the depth of this team. There isn't a clear cut MVP. This team isn't winning because it has one or two superstars; they win because up and down the line-up, everyone is solid and the pitching rotation is very good as well.

 

I have to agree with vance here. There isn't one clear cut MVP on this team. That's not to say there hasn't been players who have been valuable, but in no way can you say Player X is more valuable to the team then Player Y. etc, etc. This team is winning because you have 25 guys working together as 1.

 

So yeah, there isn't an MVP (such an individual award for a team that has won as a team) on this team.

 

With that said, if the Cubs can get Derrek Lee to stop calling for his inner Matt Murton (as one poster so elegantly put it) and channel the MVLee we loved a few yrs ago, then this team would be truly, truly, truly, ridiculously good.

[Backtobanks]

1. Zambrano

2. Soriano

3. Dempster

4. Soto

5. Edmonds

 

It might not be a popular choice, but I would think Theriot needs to be in the top 5. He has been consistently good all year while playing every day, unlike Soriano, Soto, and Edmunds.

 

I could not agree more. When I saw the list of the original 5, my first thought was that Theriot was not there. He does play every day and his defense is good. He's often and unsung hero, not a lot of flash, but I don't think the Cubs are where they are without him.

 

He doesn't play everyday, his defense isn't that good, and he's only marginally productive.

 

He plays a premium defensive position at about an average level (check any advanced metric you like, he's not terrible defensively) and has an OBP darn near .400.

 

I don't care about the rest, thats enough to make him more than 'marginally' productive.

 

I agree with those of you who point out the depth of the team and emphasize there isn't just one MVP, but I do think Theriot's value is overlooked by many of you. Some of the stats that people love to quote put a premium on slugging, overlooking the fact that not everyone can be a "slugger". (These are the same stats that make Adam Dunn a "great" hitter while Ichiro "sucks") Theriot is a very valuable role player on this team.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Backtobanks

[rawaction]

VORP:

Dempster

Zambrano

Ramirez

Soriano

Soto

 

This is probably the correct order right now.

[Old Style]

This thread is evidence of the depth of this team. There isn't a clear cut MVP. This team isn't winning because it has one or two superstars; they win because up and down the line-up, everyone is solid and the pitching rotation is very good as well.

 

I have to agree with vance here. There isn't one clear cut MVP on this team. That's not to say there hasn't been players who have been valuable, but in no way can you say Player X is more valuable to the team then Player Y. etc, etc. This team is winning because you have 25 guys working together as 1.

 

So yeah, there isn't an MVP (such an individual award for a team that has won as a team) on this team.

 

With that said, if the Cubs can get Derrek Lee to stop calling for his inner Matt Murton (as one poster so elegantly put it) and channel the MVLee we loved a few yrs ago, then this team would be truly, truly, truly, ridiculously good.

And that's the crazy thing. None of our big guys are really having great years. They are putting up some solid numbers, but it's not like they're all having career years or playing out of their minds. But yet the team is still cranking out the W's at a high rate.

[abuck1220]

Some of the stats that people love to quote put a premium on slugging, overlooking the fact that not everyone can be a "slugger".

 

right. and those guys aren't as valuable as players who are "sluggers."

 

i hear this "well, that's just not the type of hitter he is" arguments about theriot quite a bit. so does that mean you just don't consider his .367 SLG or whatever?

 

hey, jason marquis just isn't the type of pitcher that strikes guys out, limits hits, or prevents runs. when you accept that he's just not the type of pitcher, you'll like him a lot better.

[FearTheBako]

1. Dempster

2. Z

3. Soriano

4. Aram

5. Soto

 

Just doing a top 5 does not do this team justice. I want to put so many more on there. The best part of this team is that every player. 1-25, has contributed to us winning.

[Backtobanks]

Some of the stats that people love to quote put a premium on slugging, overlooking the fact that not everyone can be a "slugger".

 

right. and those guys aren't as valuable as players who are "sluggers."

 

i hear this "well, that's just not the type of hitter he is" arguments about theriot quite a bit. so does that mean you just don't consider his .367 SLG or whatever?

 

hey, jason marquis just isn't the type of pitcher that strikes guys out, limits hits, or prevents runs. when you accept that he's just not the type of pitcher, you'll like him a lot better.

 

I'm not saying that a singles hitter is as valuable as a slugger, but I do think that Theriot plays an important role on this team and shouldn't be overlooked because his slugging percentage is low. 20 years ago an overwhelming percentage of middle infielders were singles hitters and many of them were considered valuable members of the team.

[jersey cubs fan]

Some of the stats that people love to quote put a premium on slugging, overlooking the fact that not everyone can be a "slugger".

 

right. and those guys aren't as valuable as players who are "sluggers."

 

i hear this "well, that's just not the type of hitter he is" arguments about theriot quite a bit. so does that mean you just don't consider his .367 SLG or whatever?

 

hey, jason marquis just isn't the type of pitcher that strikes guys out, limits hits, or prevents runs. when you accept that he's just not the type of pitcher, you'll like him a lot better.

 

I'm not saying that a singles hitter is as valuable as a slugger, but I do think that Theriot plays an important role on this team and shouldn't be overlooked because his slugging percentage is low. 20 years ago an overwhelming percentage of middle infielders were singles hitters and many of them were considered valuable members of the team.

 

This isn't 20 years ago. Now you have to bring something with the bat. Theriot brings something, but not much, which, along with his "good enough" defense doesn't come close to making him top 5 MVP candidate. You can't list a guy as MVP just because you think he's an underappreciated role player. Nor can you list Edmonds/Johnson as MVP because they combine to be very good. Theriot has been a nice role player this year, which is a big improvement over last year. But that's not MVP in any way shape or form.