Baseball History Thread

[TruffleShuffle]

Ozzie Smith career:

 

.262 / .337 / .328 / 87 OPS-plus

 

 

Scooter career:

 

.273 / .351 / .355 / 93

 

ozzie played for a longer time and was the best defensive shortstop ever.

[OleMissCub]

This is an excerpt from a Carl Mays' biography about what occurred between him and Ty Cobb the week after Mays killed Ray Chapman with a fastball to the head. Cobb and Chapman were apparently very close friends. Mays was not very popular during his time and had a reputation as a headhunter. This reputation was obviously made worse by the death of Ray Chapman.

 

Mays had a very solid career and probably would have been a HOFer had the Chapman incident not occurred, going 207-126 with a 2.92 ERA.

 

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9610/carlmays2vl7.gif

 

 

The dressing room was almost empty as the last of the Yankees clattered out to the field for pregame batting and fielding practice. Not even the clubhouse boy was there. Only Carl, alone with god and his thoughts.

 

Neither fear nor agitation gripped him as he stared momentarily at the open locker, even though he was about to face the hardest-hitting club in the league, the Detroit Tigers with their vaunted Cobb, Veach and Heilmann---and Cobb one of the ring-leaders in an attempt to have Carl barred for life from baseball.

 

Now the moment of truth was at hand. Carl reached into the locker and took out his spike shoes, shiny and neat-looking as they always were for a game. He slipped them onto his feet and started to tie the lacings. As he did so, he felt a light tap on his right shoulder. He paused, then looked around over the shoulder. It was the clubhouse boy. So deep had Carl's thoughts been that he had not heard the boy come in.

 

"Carl . . ."

"Yes?"

"Er--I've got a hote for you."

"A note?"

"Uh-huh," replied the boy. And as Carl straightened up and turned half around on the bench, the boy handed him the note.

 

It took Carl but two seconds to read it--and only one for his well-tanned face to turn white.

 

"You say Cobb gave this to you?"

"Yes, sir. I was on the dugout steps watchin' battin' practice when he came over, handed the note to me and asked me to pin it on your locker door."

 

"You're sure it was Cobb?"

"I couldn't be mistaken, Carl. There's only one Ty Cobb."

 

"All right, son, thanks. You better go on out now." And then Carl read the note again, the almost unbelievable words:

 

"If it was within my power, I would have inscribed on Chapman's tombstone these words: Here lies the victim of arrogance, viciousness and greed."

 

For just an instant the words blurred and seemed to dance before Carl's eyes as a fury gripped his brain. Then the words straightened out, came clearly into focus--and became indelibly imprinted in his memory as he fought to regain control of himself . . . Another of Cobb's tricks to try to upset him. Cobb would stop at nothing.

 

And then, as Carl stared into his open locker, his thoughts went back to that day in Fenway Park when Carl had decked the Georgia Peach in a tight situation and Ty had responded by throwing his bat at him. Cobb had needed police protection to get off the field that day.

 

Then there was the day in Detroit when Carl was leaving the dressing room to go out on the field and saw Cobb, filing his spikes, on the bench before the open door of the Tigers' dressing room.

 

"I hear you're pitching today, Mays. I hear you're pitching, but you won't be around very long," Cobb hollered as Carl and his teammates clattered along the corridor to the dugout. Carl hadn't paid any attention to Cobb then, but he let Ty know later that he'd herd him.

 

"The first time he came to bat I decked him but good," Carl recalled.

 

"The dirt really flew when he hit the ground and he came up wild with rage. He had a terrible temper and was always scrapping with somebody. If it wasn't the umpires or the other players he would scrap with his own teammates.

 

"But I made a mistake in sitting him down in that frame of mind. It nearly cost me my baseball career. I had to come in with the next pitch, in order to get even on the count, and he dragged a bunt down the first base line. I ran over, fielded the ball and turned to toss it to first base. But I never completed the play.

"Just as I was about to toss an underhand lob I was slammed into from behind and knocked sprawling on the foul line. At the same time I felt one of Cobb's spikes rip into the calf of my left leg while his other tore my pants from the belt line right down to the back of my knee. Cobb had run fight over me.

 

"I lay there stunned for a moment and then rolled over onto the infield grass and sat up. When I got courage enough to look at my leg, it was just a bloody mess. I remember wondering if I would ever run again.

 

"And when I looked up at Cobb, there he was, standing with both feet on top of the first-base bag. His chin was sticking out like a witch's and his eyes were nearly popping out of his head. I never before had seen any person with such a look of wild hatred in his eyes.

 

"What present-day fans don't know about Cobb is that he was like a big cat. If you turned your back to him he would strike--be off and running to the next base. You never could take your eyes off him. He was extremely fast and was running at full speed after having taken only one step.

 

"The mistake I had made was in getting in his way on the baseline. The baseline was his--according to him--and he just ran right over me after knocking me to the ground. I carry the scar of that spiking to this day. It is more than six inches long. The doctor, incidentally, did a wonderful repair job and I only missed a couple of pitching turns.

 

"There is one other thing I remember as I sat there on the ground looking up at Cobb. It is the thought that went through my mind: All right, mister, if that's the way you want to play this game, that's the way we'll both play.

 

"So the next time I face Cobb I hit him on the heel with the first pitch I threw. That was the time the papers came out the next day with the headline 'Mays Beans Cobb.'

But Cobb got my message, and he never again tried to cut me up.

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27876&d=1187807322

[OleMissCub]

Does anyone in modern times routinely choke up as much as HOFer Richie Ashburn did during his career?

 

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/4940/ashburnie3.gif

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41566&d=1209995476

 

Hack Wilson was a SQUAT looking dude:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46138&d=1215289578

 

Good photo of our favorite Cubs bench coach:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43937&d=1212775081

 

Great color photo of a young Hank Aaron:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38652&d=1207014218

[TruffleShuffle]

david eckstein chokes up so much that he's often holding the barrel of the bat, i think

[Derwood]

and Youkilis does that weird thing where his hands are about 6 inches apart on the bat

[Fred Hornkohl]

Does anyone in modern times routinely choke up as much as HOFer Richie Ashburn did during his career?

 

J. Nelson Fox with the white sox used to choke up as much or maybe more than Ashburn.... but I doubt you'd consider him to be "in modern times". :wink:

[OleMissCub]

Playing sizes of some of the greats:

 

Ted Williams: 6'3, 205

Babe Ruth: 6'2, 215

Lou Gehrig: 6'0, 200

Ty Cobb: 6'1, 175

Honus Wagner: 5'11, 200

Jimmie Foxx: 6'0, 195

Rogers Hornsby: 5'11, 175

Nap Lajoie: 6'1, 195

Sam Crawford: 6'0, 190

George Sisler: 5'11, 170

Cy Young: 6'2, 210

Walter Johnson: 6'2, 200

Christy Mathewson: 6'2, 195

Lefty Grove: 6'3, 190

Carl Hubbell: 6'0, 170

Mordecai Brown: 5'10, 175

[TruffleShuffle]

Does anyone in modern times routinely choke up as much as HOFer Richie Ashburn did during his career?

 

J. Nelson Fox with the white sox used to choke up as much or maybe more than Ashburn.... but I doubt you'd consider him to be "in modern times". :wink:

 

cool thing about him - the strikeout rate! he struck out 216 times in 9,232 ABs. his single-season high in strikeouts was eighteen, and this came in 624 ABs. that is completely ridiculous.

[OleMissCub]

The July 4th, 1985, game between the Braves and Mets may be one of the strangest games ever.

 

A recap:

 

-The start of the game was delayed an hour and 24 minutes by rain, and the game was delayed in the 3rd inning 41 minutes by rain.

-The Braves scored four in the 8th to take an 8-7 lead, but the Mets tied it in the 9th.

-Keith Hernandez got a single in the 12th to complete a cycle.

-Howard Johnson hit a two-run homer with two outs in the 13th to give the Mets a 10-8 lead. Terry Harper for Atlanta then hits a two-run homer with two outs and an 0-2 count to tie it.

-Darryl Strawberry and Davey Johnson are ejected in the 17th for arguing a called third strike.

The Mets get a sac fly in the 18th to take an 11-10 lead. The Braves' first two hitters are retired, and with no pinch hitters left the Braves are forced to let pitcher Rick Camp, with a major league worst .060 career average, bat. With an 0-2 count he hits a game-tying homer.

-The Mets get five in the 19th, and Ron Darling comes on in relief for the first time since college. The Braves get two runs and have two on and two out when Camp comes up again, but he strikes out.

-The 4th of July fireworks start at 4:01 A.M., causing many Atlantans to think the city is under attack.

[TruffleShuffle]

The July 4th, 1985, game between the Braves and Mets may be one of the strangest games ever.

 

A recap:

 

-The start of the game was delayed an hour and 24 minutes by rain, and the game was delayed in the 3rd inning 41 minutes by rain.

-The Braves scored four in the 8th to take an 8-7 lead, but the Mets tied it in the 9th.

-Keith Hernandez got a single in the 12th to complete a cycle.

-Howard Johnson hit a two-run homer with two outs in the 13th to give the Mets a 10-8 lead. Terry Harper for Atlanta then hits a two-run homer with two outs and an 0-2 count to tie it.

-Darryl Strawberry and Davey Johnson are ejected in the 17th for arguing a called third strike.

The Mets get a sac fly in the 18th to take an 11-10 lead. The Braves' first two hitters are retired, and with no pinch hitters left the Braves are forced to let pitcher Rick Camp, with a major league worst .060 career average, bat. With an 0-2 count he hits a game-tying homer.

-The Mets get five in the 19th, and Ron Darling comes on in relief for the first time since college. The Braves get two runs and have two on and two out when Camp comes up again, but he strikes out.

-The 4th of July fireworks start at 4:01 A.M., causing many Atlantans to think the city is under attack.

 

in a similar situation:

 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1DD163BF937A35754C0A965958260

 

i remember they said attendance was actually increasing by the end of the game because the die-hards were there for the long haul, and a handful people were home listening to the game and decided to go in and try to be there - since it was going to be the latest game ever played.

[bhogg]

I think the Babe was a few hot dogs heavier than 215.

[SouthSideRyan]

I caught that Rick Camp game on ESPN Classic a few years ago without knowing anything about it. It was awesome.

[OleMissCub]

I think the Babe was a few hot dogs heavier than 215.

 

In his older days yes, but he was about that weight during his prime years. The problem with our modern sense impressions of Ruth is that most of the footage we see is of him during his late 30's, when film footage of players was just beginning to get popular. Thus, we rarely see film footage of him in his prime seasons, when he was a big guy, but certainly wasn't fat like he was later in his career.

 

1910's as a pitcher:

 

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4989/babe1918uu1.jpg

 

 

1920's in his prime:

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/44/baberuth1920pologroundsbl7.jpg

 

This one is from 1927 with Ty Cobb. They look to be roughly the same size, and Cobb was never considered a huge guy. (I wonder how much the original of that signed picture is worth??)

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43251&stc=1&d=1211750955

 

1930's (fat babe that we all know and love):

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070810/070810_ruth_vmed_3p.widec.jpg

 

A bonus pic of the Babe:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/7793/ruthxt2.jpg

[bhogg]

Babe wasn't fat. . . . he was big boned.

 

 

Trust me, I know these things.

 

 

I wonder how much of our impression of his size has to do with the rest of society being smaller, not to mention the god-like status we've bestowed upon him.

[TruffleShuffle]

I think the Babe was a few hot dogs heavier than 215.

 

In his older days yes, but he was about that weight during his prime years. The problem with our modern sense impressions of Ruth is that most of the footage we see is of him during his late 30's, when film footage of players was just beginning to get popular. Thus, we rarely see film footage of him in his prime seasons, when he was a big guy, but certainly wasn't fat like he was later in his career.

 

yeah but john goodman played him in a movie; if john goodman plays you in a movie, there's no way that you can be considered an elite athlete!!!1111!!!!11!

[OleMissCub]

A Babe compilation I made a while back of footage from various baseball history DVD's I own, but was yanked off youtube. I reuploaded it and I'm anxiously awaiting to see how long it survives.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB1Z-7yDSAY

 

Some things to note:

 

52 seconds in: I have NO idea what is up with that. A walking swing? You could barely do that if someone was throwing underhanded. Was Babe just goofing around during a live game? It appears that it didn't harm him...looks to have gotten a double out of it.

 

1:20: The pitcher covering home on the play where Babe is called out at the plate is Walter Johnson.

 

1:26: Game 7, 1926 World Series at Yankee Stadium. Bottom of the Ninth, Yanks down 3-2, 2 outs. Grover Cleveland Alexander walks Babe who for some reason attempts to steal second on the next pitch and is tagged out by Rogers Hornsby to END the World Series. The Cardinals are seen running off the field for fear of Yankees fans charging onto the field and attacking them. Home fans back then obviously didn't give the away team the courtesy of celebrating on their field.

 

2:05: Judging by the reaction of Babe, the players in the dugout, and the fans in the stands, that ball must have gone 500 feet. Supposedly that is film footage of his 60th home run in 1927.

[OleMissCub]

More InitialNoticeBlack productions:

 

 

Pete Alexander

 

Yogi Berra

 

Ty Cobb

 

Dizzy Dean

 

Joe DiMaggio

 

Bob Feller

 

Jimmie Foxx

 

Lou Gehrig

 

Lou Gehrig's speech

 

Rogers Hornsby

 

Carl Hubbell

 

Walter Johnson

 

Mickey Mantle

 

Christy Mathewson

 

Willie Mays

 

Joe Medwick

 

Stan Musial

 

Mel Ott

 

Satchel Paige

 

Jackie Robinson

 

Babe Ruth

 

Ted Williams

[OleMissCub]

I think Berkman is a pretty good comparison to how Babe looked during his prime. Berkman is obviously heavyset and runs in a funny manner (like the Babe), but his pudginess doesn't appear to hurt his play or athleticism in any noticeable way.

 

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Houston-Astros--Lance-Berkman-Poster-C13041616.jpeg

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33124&d=1198271894

 

 

 

While on the Babe warpath right now in this thread....here is an interesting pic of Babe and Bush 41 when he was a star first baseman at Yale. The photo was taken two months before Babe died.

 

http://tomflocco.com/Docs/63/GhwBushBabeRuth1948.jpg

[wolf stansson]

Geez...Bret Wallace is a clone of Hack Wilson.

[Clem Fandango]

If there's one glaring reason why they won't let him in, there it is. Even if he hit all those home runs after the incident occurred, that will tarnish his skills to get him in, IMO.

 

That's a good article by the way, very entertaining, and also quite a good read for this thread...

 

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html

 

Corking the bat doesn't really help a batter out much (if at all). There are tons of studies on it if you feel like researching it.

 

No, I know it doesn't. But does that really matter? Most people probably don't know that, they just know it's illegal and considered cheating. That stigma will stick with a player. Even is Sammy Sosa never actually did steroids, he will always be suspected, but if he's proven to have never done them, naysayers will look back and point to his corked bat incident probably.

 

P.S. I love this thread. Thanks for all the great stuff, OMC

Edited July 7, 2008 by The Logan

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Playing sizes of some of the greats:

 

Babe Ruth: 6'2, 215

yet another thing we have in common

[Warpticon]

Stan Musial is the most underrated living baseball player. Opinions?

 

 

This is what got me thinking about that. According to his metrical HOF Monitor, which basically combines all the metrics about what a player did during his career, Bill James' all-time leading batsman are:

 

454 - Stan Musial

451 - Ty Cobb

423 - Hank Aaron

422 - Babe Ruth

372 - Willie Mays

354 - Ted Williams

353 - Barry Bonds

352 - Lou Gehrig

349 - Rogers Hornsby

316 - Alex Rodriguez

 

Imagine if Stan the Man had played in New York or Boston??

 

I was just going to say before I go this far in the thread that, of all the greats mentioned, the one of which I previously had the least appreciation of his greatness was Musial. Stan was a a freaking beast. I know Williams and Ruth had absolutely cartoonish numbers, while he was playing, he was pretty much uneffwitable. And the crazy thing is that he had two MVPs before he even HIT his prime. How wild is that? His lowest OBP from his debut in 1941 to 1955 was .397, achieved in his second major league season. Just sick.

 

Right now I would kill to see some episodes of the old Home Run Derby show. There are only a few up on youtube, but there are some good ones.

 

Mantle v. Mays

part 2

 

 

I was always fascinated Jim Lemon's stepless swing.

 

I bet Jimmie Foxx got insane amounts of tail.

[OleMissCub]

More unique photos of Ruth, who is surely the most photographed individual to ever play:

 

three of the top hitters in history (that's Eddie Collins btw)

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35861&stc=1&d=1203284955

http://www.baseballforum.com/attachments/baseball-history-teams-yester-year/368d1167939009-sweet-music-babeonhorn.jpghttp://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4527/yanksvw7.jpg

 

Gehrig, Ruth, Chuck Klein (he put up some absolutely SICK numbers before injury ruined his career), and Jimmie Foxx

http://images.mastronet.com/images/Auction29/photographs/35625.jpg

 

Throwing chocolate to fans:

http://images.mastronet.com/images/Auction29/photographs/36569.jpg

 

On vacation with wife Claire (the original cleat chaser, she used to date Ty Cobb among others)

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/photos/Ruth_Babe_MLD20.jpg

 

http://images.mastronet.com/images/Auction30/photographs/38232e.jpg

 

Ruth, Miller Huggins, and Gehrig (the original calfzilla)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/04/sports/04anderson.1.600.jpg

 

Ruth and Leo Durocher:

http://www.thedeadballera.com/Photos/RuthBabe_photo44.jpg

 

 

Ruth and Gehrig:

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39250&stc=1&d=1207830319

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37688&stc=1&d=1205637339

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37331&stc=1&d=1205188729

 

 

I like this picture alot from a private collection. Imagine finding that in your grandfather's photo album.

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44109&stc=1&d=1212986584

[imb]

Here's a quick hitter.

 

Wandering around at work, there's a hallway that is wall papered with pages of old newspapers, here's an "article" from one from sometime between 1911 and 1918.

 

"Joe Benz, the Chicago White Sox pitcher, has taken up golf and will probably do well if permitted to spit on the ball."

[OleMissCub]

How badass was Stan the Man during his prime?

 

Musial hit .435 over 180 games in 1947-48 and hit .469 over 104 games in 1947.

 

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43812&stc=1&d=1212561956