Baseball History Thread

[OleMissCub]

Some more random images from the old days:

 

Ruth as a 20 year old rookie with other Red Sox pitchers:

 

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/18400/18459v.jpg

 

Hall of Fame pitcher Charles "Chief" Bender, the first (and only?) Native American superstar.

 

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b40000/3b43000/3b43900/3b43947r.jpg

 

1910 Chinese baseball team:

 

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/08300/08356r.jpg

 

The old Athletics park must have been a lot like Wrigley:

 

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3a20000/3a29000/3a29600/3a29625r.jpg

 

Great shot of Honus Wagner:

 

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7192/wagnerww8.jpg

 

Mickey Mantle playing the bases. He actually played 7 games at shortstop during his career.

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29462&d=1190424563

 

Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30868&d=1193446727

 

Lou Gehrig:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31400&d=1195008451

 

Legends:

 

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27340&stc=1&d=1186852329

[OleMissCub]

Some pictures of the old timers in civilian clothes:

 

Honus Wagner:

 

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8239/1900honuswagneryp4.jpg

 

Christy Mathewson

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/christy.gif

 

Cy Young

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/cy.jpg

 

Frank Chance on crutches for some reason

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/frank.jpg

 

Lou Gehrig and wife

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/gehrig.jpg

 

Grover Cleveland "Elvis" Alexander

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/grover.jpg

 

Ty Cobb

 

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/1045/cobbhatdh4.jpg

 

Rogers Hornsby

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/hornsby2.jpg

 

Joe Jackson and wife...Joe needs a tailor.

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/jackson.jpg

 

Jimmie Foxx

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/jimmy.jpg

 

Rube Waddell, probably the craziest person to ever play in the MLB....look him up.

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/rube.jpg

 

Tinker, Evers, and Chance

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tinkeve.jpg

 

Walter Johnson and wife. Sadly, Train's wife dropped dead of heatstroke in her early 30's.

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/walter-1.jpg

 

Not sure who this guy is....

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/baber.jpg

 

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/9565/babekt5.jpg

[ConstableRabbit]

Gehrig looks surprisingly like Mario Lopez in that photo.

[OleMissCub]

Gehrig looks surprisingly like Mario Lopez in that photo.

 

I just had a thought that nearly made me shoot some gin out of my nose. I pictured Lou Gehrig wearing those AC Slater jeans.

[OleMissCub]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/deando01.shtml

 

Dory Dean....this poor bastard actually went 4-26 as a starting pitcher in a single season. Eat your heart out, Zito.

[imb]

Gehrig and Foxx are some good looking dudes

[rocket]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/deando01.shtml

 

Dory Dean....this poor bastard actually went 4-26 as a starting pitcher in a single season. Eat your heart out, Zito.

 

that 0.75 k/9 ratio must have scared the crap out of hitters.

[OleMissCub]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/deando01.shtml

 

Dory Dean....this poor bastard actually went 4-26 as a starting pitcher in a single season. Eat your heart out, Zito.

 

that 0.75 k/9 ratio must have scared the crap out of hitters.

 

Must have sucked to have been a pitcher back when fouls didn't count as strikes.

 

It's hard for me to take any stats seriously before the turn of the century.

[tfarks]

Rube Waddell sure seemed like an interesting guy:

 

"He began that year (1903) sleeping in a firehouse in Camden, New Jersey, and ended it tending bar in a saloon in Wheeling, West Virginia. In between those events he won 22 games for the Philadelphia Athletics, played left end for the Business Men's Rugby Football Club of Grand Rapids, Michigan, toured the nation in a melodrama called The Stain of Guilt, courted, married and became separated from May Wynne Skinner of Lynn, Massachusetts, saved a woman from drowning, accidentally shot a friend through the hand, and was bitten by a lion."

[OleMissCub]

The scene from Ken Burns' Baseball where he profiles Rube:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAgLr_CKuco

 

"Rube Waddell may have been the strangest man ever to play in the big leagues. He possessed a fastball fearsome enough and a curve wicked enough to lead the AL in strikeouts for 6 straight years, and to outpitch Cy Young for 20 innings. But it was his personality that most people would remember. He poured ice water on his arm before starts because, he said, "I don't want to burn up the catcher's glove." And when he won a game he sometimes turned cartwheels on the mound. He drank too much, and he couldn't quite remember how many women he'd married. In the offseasons he wrestled alligators and toured in a vaudeville production called "The Stain of Guilt". On the field his attention seemed to wander, opponents could break his concentration by holding up puppies or shiny objects. He loved fires, and when a fire engine would roar by, he had to be restrained from leaving the game to chase the fire."

[Tracer Bullet]

The scene from Ken Burns' Baseball where he profiles Rube:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAgLr_CKuco

 

"Rube Waddell may have been the strangest man ever to play in the big leagues. He possessed a fastball fearsome enough and a curve wicked enough to lead the AL in strikeouts for 6 straight years, and to outpitch Cy Young for 20 innings. But it was his personality that most people would remember. He poured ice water on his arm before starts because, he said, "I don't want to burn up the catcher's glove." And when he won a game he sometimes turned cartwheels on the mound. He drank too much, and he couldn't quite remember how many women he'd married. In the offseasons he wrestled alligators and toured in a vaudeville production called "The Stain of Guilt". On the field his attention seemed to wander, opponents could break his concentration by holding up puppies or shiny objects. He loved fires, and when a fire engine would roar by, he had to be restrained from leaving the game to chase the fire."

 

In his defense, if a batter suddenly held up a puppy when Z was on the mound, he'd probably be a little distracted too.

[laurens]

The scene from Ken Burns' Baseball where he profiles Rube:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAgLr_CKuco

 

"Rube Waddell may have been the strangest man ever to play in the big leagues. He possessed a fastball fearsome enough and a curve wicked enough to lead the AL in strikeouts for 6 straight years, and to outpitch Cy Young for 20 innings. But it was his personality that most people would remember. He poured ice water on his arm before starts because, he said, "I don't want to burn up the catcher's glove." And when he won a game he sometimes turned cartwheels on the mound. He drank too much, and he couldn't quite remember how many women he'd married. In the offseasons he wrestled alligators and toured in a vaudeville production called "The Stain of Guilt". On the field his attention seemed to wander, opponents could break his concentration by holding up puppies or shiny objects. He loved fires, and when a fire engine would roar by, he had to be restrained from leaving the game to chase the fire."

 

In his defense, if a batter suddenly held up a puppy when Z was on the mound, he'd probably be a little distracted too.

 

I hope Z isn't hungry when that happens...

[OleMissCub]

An interesting passage about Ted Williams from Bill James' Historical Abstract (2000).

 

In baseball history there is a line of "popular" superstars, which includes Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, George Brett, and Ken Griffey Jr., and a line of "unpopular" superstars, which includes Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, and Albert Belle.

 

This may be hard for a younger fan to understand, but Ted Williams was every bit as unpopular, in his time, as Albert Belle is now. In baseball today there are there players who are cheered in every park - Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, and Ken Griffey Jr. - and about the same number who are booed in every park, led by Belle and John Rocker. Ted Williams was despised everywhere in the American League, including Boston for at least the first half of his career. He took constant actions to reinforce that relationship. He splattered water coolers, including glass ones. He made obscene gestures at fans, carried on decades-long vendettas against selected reporters, sometimes didn't treat his family well, sometimes didn't hustle or even make any show of hustling in the field or on the bases, was obsessed with his own success, was contemptuous of coaches and some managers, and alternated, in his dealings with the fans, between rugged charm and uncharted rudeness. "When Ted's name is announced," wrote Austin Lake, "the sound is like the autumn wind moaning through an apple orchard."

 

Could all of this have been avoided, had Williams gotten off on the right track early in his career? I don't see how. There are people who have made similar suggestions about Ty Cobb, that Ty Cobb's angry persona traces back to the mistreatment he received by veteran players when he joined the Tigers in 1905. It doesn't. Ty Cobb's life did not begin in 1905; Ted Williams' life did not begin in 1939. Williams had a miserable childhood. Williams' father abandoned the family. Williams' comment on this was "Well, I wouldn't have wanted to be married to a woman like that, either." By the time he was 20, Williams was insecure, moody, and filled with hate. He was a lot like Rogers Hornsby, whom he knew well and liked, and he is a lot like Bobby Knight, who is a close friend. He had a great deal more in common with Ty Cobb than he did with Babe Ruth.

 

Cobb has been treated harshly by subsequent generations because he stood on the wrong side of the long arc of history. I'm not making excuses for him, but Ty Cobb didn't invent racism; it was taught to him. It was very common for men of his generation to get into fist fights about nothing; many other players also did this. Gabby Hartnett and Babe Ruth, among countless others, also went into the stands to punch out fans; nobody holds this against their memory. Williams has been treated more kindly by history because he represents the best of what we have taken to calling the Greatest Generation.

[OleMissCub]

Some of Bill James' lists (all according to Win Shares):

 

An all-star team of the best young players ever (value up to age 23)

 

C- Johnny Bench

1B - Jimmie Foxx

2B - Rogers Hornsby

3B - Eddie Mathews

SS - Arky Vaughan

OF - Mickey Mantle

OF - Ty Cobb

OF - Mel Ott

SP - Babe Ruth

SP - Amos Rusie

SP - Christy Mathewson

SP - Monte Ward

 

The top five shortstops of all time, rated as offensive players, are:

 

1. Honus Wagner

2. Robin Yount

3. Arky Vaughan

4. George Davis

5. Cal Ripken

 

The top five shortstops, rated as defensive players, are:

 

1. Honus Wagner

2. Ozzie Smith

3. Bill Dahlen

4. Rabbit Maranville

5. Pee Wee Reese

 

Five weakest players to win MVP award, listed by career Win Shares:

 

1. Zoilo Versalles, 1965 AL

2. Hank Sauer, 1952 NL

3. George Bell, 1987 AL

4. Kevin Mitchell, 1989 NL

5. Marty Marion, 1945 NL

 

Greatest players in history, based on Win Shares between ages 30 and 39, not including pitchers:

 

1. Honus Wagner

2. Babe Ruth

3. Willie Mays

4. Hank Aaron

5. Pete Rose

6. Mike Schmidt

7. Ty Cobb

8. Tris Speaker

9. Joe Morgan

10. Stan Musial

 

Ten GOOD things to say about Albert Belle:

 

10. So far as we know, he's never killed anyone.

9. He is handsome, and built like a God.

8. He played every game.

7. He has never appeared on the Jerry Springer Show.

6. He was an underrated base runner.

5. He hasn't been arrested in several years.

4. He is very bright.

3. He works hard.

2. He has never spoken favorably about Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, or any other foreign madman.

1. The man could hit.

 

The All-Tall team, composed of the tallest player rated among the top 25 at each position:

 

C - Lance Parrish

1B - Mark McGwire

2B - Ryne Sandberg

3B - Mike Schmidt

SS -Cal Ripken

LF - Frank Howard

CF - Dale Murphy

RF - Dave Winfield

 

Best "last seasons" by players at any position, including players banned from baseball:

 

1. Joe Jackson

2. Sandy Koufax

3. Happy Felsch

4. Mickey Mantle

5. Bill Joyce

6. Eddie Cicotte

7. Buck Weaver

8. Jesse Burkett

9. Ted Williams

10. Kirby Puckett

 

four Black Sox players on the list...must have been a hell of a team.

 

Best players, according to career Win Shares, to have never won an MVP Award:

 

1. Mel Ott

2. Eddie Mathews

3. Al Kaline

4. Eddie Murray

5. Dave Winfield

6. Paul Molitor

7. Warren Spahn

8. Wade Boggs

9. Tom Seaver

10. Tony Gwynn

 

Lowest ranked Hall of Famers by position:

 

C- Ray Schalk

1B - George Kelly

2B - Bid McPhee

3B - Freddy Lindstrom

SS -Travis Jackson

LF -Chick Hafey

CF -Lloyd Waner

RF -Tommy McCarthy

 

Best pitcher's seasons of all time, by decade:

 

Jack Chesbro, 1904

Walter Johnson, 1913

Dolf Luque, 1923

Lefty Grove, 1931

Dizzy Trout, 1944

Robin Roberts, 1953

Bob Gibson, 1968

Steve Carlton, 1972

Dwight Gooden, 1985

Roger Clemens, 1997

 

Ten greatest players, according to career Win Shares:

 

1. Babe Ruth

2. Ty Cobb

3. Honus Wagner

4. Henry Aaron

5. Willie Mays

6. Cy Young

7. Tris Speaker

8. Stan Musial

9. Eddie Collins

10. Mickey Mantle

[OleMissCub]

Also from The Historical Abstract, Bill James' "All-Decade" teams according to Win Shares:

 

1900-1909

C: Roger Breshnahan

1B: Frank Chance

2B: Napoleon Lajoie

3B: Jimmy Collins

SS: Honus Wagner

LF: Mike Donlin

CF: Ty Cobb

RF: Sam Crawford

RH: Christy Mathewson

RH: Cy Young

RH: Three Finger Brown

 

1910-1919

C: Chief Meyers

1B: Ed Konetchy

2B: Eddie Collins

3B: Home Run Baker

SS: Honus Wagner

LF: Joe Jackson

CF: Tris Speaker

RF: Ty Cobb

RH: Walter Johnson

RH: Grover Cleveland Alexander

RH: Christy Mathewson

LH: Hippo Vaughn

 

1920-1929

C: Gabby Hartnett

1B: Lou Gehrig

2B: Rogers Hornsby

3B: Pie Traynor

SS: Joe Sewell

LF: Harry Heilmann

CF: Al Simmons

RF: Babe Ruth

RH: Dazzy Vance

RH: Grover Cleveland Alexander

RH: Burleigh Grimes

LH: Herb Pennock

 

1930-1939

C: Bill Dickey

1B: Lou Gehrig

2B: Charlie Gehringer

3B: Stan Hack

SS: Arky Vaughan

LF: Paul Waner

CF: Joe Dimaggio

RF: Mel Ott

RH: Dizzy Dean

RH: Red Ruffing

LH: Carl Hubbell

LH: Lefty Grove

 

1940-1949

C: Walter Cooper

1B: Johnny Mize

2B: Joe Gordon

3B: Bob Elliot

SS: Lou Boudreau

LF: Stan Musial

CF: Joe DiMaggio

RF: Ted Williams

RH: Bob Feller

LH: Hal Newhouser

RH: Mort Cooper

RH Spud Chandler

 

1950-1959

C: Yogi Berra

1B: Stan Musial

2B: Jackie Robinson

3B: Eddie Mathews

SS: Ernie Banks

LF: Ted Williams

CF: Willie Mays

RF: Mickey Mantle

RH: Robin Roberts

RH: Early Wynn

LH: Warren Sphan

LH: Whitey Ford

RP: Ellis Kinder

 

1960-1969

C: Bill Freehan

1B: Willie McCovey

2B: Pete Rose

3B: Ron Santo

SS: Maury Wills

LF: Frank Robinson

CF: Willie Mays

RF: Hank Aaron

RH: Juan Marichal

RH: Bob Gibson

LH: Whitey Ford

LH: Sandy Koufax

RP: Hoyt Wilhelm

 

1970-1979

C: Johnny Bench

1B: Rod Carew

2B: Joe Morgan

3B: Mike Schmidt

SS: Dave Concepcion

LF: Bobby Bonds

CF: Bobby Murcer

RF: Reggie Jackson

U: Pete Rose

RH: Jim Palmer

RH: Tom Seaver

RH: Gaylord Perry

LH: Steve Carlton

RP: Rollie Fingers

 

1980-1989

C: Gary Carter

1B: Eddie Murray

2B: Ryne Sandberg

3B: Mike Schmidt

SS: Cal Ripken

LF: Rickey Henderson

CF: Robin Yount

RF: Dale Murphy

RH: Dave Stieb

RH: Jack Morris

RH: Bert Blyleven

LH: Fernando Valenzuela

RH: Roger Clemens

RP: Dan Quisenberry

 

1990-1999

C: Mike Piazza

1B: Frank Thomas

2B: Craig Biggio

3B: Robin Ventura

SS: Barry larkin

LF: Barry Bonds

CF: Ken Griffey Jr.

RF: Albert Belle

RH: Roger Clemens

RH: Greg Maddux

RH: Kevin Brown

LH: Randy Johnson

LH: Tom Glavine

RP: John Wetteland

 

 

The 1950's squad against the 1990's squad would be absolutely epic

[NCCubFan]

Also from The Historical Abstract, Bill James' "All-Decade" teams according to Win Shares:

 

1960-1969

C: Bill Freehan

1B: Willie McCovey

2B: Pete Rose

3B: Ron Santo

SS: Maury Wills

LF: Frank Robinson

CF: Willie Mays

RF: Hank Aaron

RH: Juan Marichal

RH: Bob Gibson

LH: Whitey Ford

LH: Sandy Koufax

RP: Hoyt Wilhelm

More evidence that he belongs in the Hall.

[TruffleShuffle]

so tommy john was co-hosting the morning show on ESPN radio the other day, and they were going through a list of pitchers who might be eligible for the HoF if they don't pitch again after this year. this was after they got done pimping tommy john as a legitimate candidate - mostly it was his co-host doing the pimping, but you could tell that tommy thinks he is a worthy candidate. anyway, they went down the list of guys and tommy john said no to most of them - schilling, i think smoltz.... but this one blew my mind:

 

co-host: pedro martinez?

john: no.

 

 

what?!?!? some of these old-timey baseball guys are a real hoot. they have to change their pants after talking about what a dominant pitcher sandy koufax was, yet you've got a guy who was easily more dominant than koufax ever was, and they're not convinced that he belongs in the hall. completely idiotic.

[OleMissCub]

 

co-host: pedro martinez?

john: no.

 

 

what?!?!? some of these old-timey baseball guys are a real hoot. they have to change their pants after talking about what a dominant pitcher sandy koufax was, yet you've got a guy who was easily more dominant than koufax ever was, and they're not convinced that he belongs in the hall. completely idiotic.

 

What a dumbass.

 

 

Statistician Bill Burgess has his most impressive pitching peaks listed as:

 

Pedro Martinez 1997-2003, 215 ERA+

Walter Johnson 1910-1914, 204 ERA+

Roger Clemens 1986-1992, 164 ERA+

Sandy Koufax 1961-1966, 161 ERA+

Ed Walsh 1907-1912, 160 ERA+

[NCCubFan]

That's crazy talk. Pedro's in on the first ballot even if he never throws another pitch.

[shnsajax]

Gehrig looks surprisingly like Mario Lopez in that photo.

 

I just had a thought that nearly made me shoot some gin out of my nose. I pictured Lou Gehrig wearing those AC Slater jeans.

 

I had thought Alec Baldwin when I first saw the picture.

[OleMissCub]

Top 10 Win Shares of the 1960's:

 

Hank Aaron - 340

Willie Mays - 337

Frank Robinson - 307

Roberto Clemente - 260

Harmon Killebrew - 257

Ron Santo - 247

Mickey Mantle - 247

Willie McCovey - 237

Brooks Robinson - 233

Carl Yastrzemski - 230

 

...I wonder what all of those men have in common that Ron doesn't?

 

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1695/ronnieswing2ue0.gif

[NCCubFan]

Top 10 Win Shares of the 1960's:

 

Hank Aaron - 340

Willie Mays - 337

Frank Robinson - 307

Roberto Clemente - 260

Harmon Killebrew - 257

Ron Santo - 247

Mickey Mantle - 247

Willie McCovey - 237

Brooks Robinson - 233

Carl Yastrzemski - 230

 

...I wonder what all of those men have in common that Ron doesn't?

 

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1695/ronnieswing2ue0.gif

You must be talking about first names with more than three letters.

Or my second guess would be a plaque in Cooperstown. :D

 

[Derwood]

Top 10 Win Shares of the 1960's:

 

Hank Aaron - 340

Willie Mays - 337

Frank Robinson - 307

Roberto Clemente - 260

Harmon Killebrew - 257

Ron Santo - 247

Mickey Mantle - 247

Willie McCovey - 237

Brooks Robinson - 233

Carl Yastrzemski - 230

 

...I wonder what all of those men have in common that Ron doesn't?

 

I know something that all of the HoF voters have in common:

 

 

They have no effing clue what a win share is

 

[TruffleShuffle]

Gehrig and Foxx are some good looking dudes

 

yeah no kidding. that's what is so scary about what happened to gehrig, he was a wonderful athlete, very handsome, was married, and was by all accounts a very good person. he seemed to have it all, and at age 37 he was dead. if that can happen to lou gehrig then it can pretty much happen to anybody.

[rocket]

that ted williams stuff is fascinating. wasn't he basically seen as the a-rod of his day too? does great during the regular season and when it doesn't matter, but when he made it to the playoffs, he performed horribly. i remember hearing how a lot of people, when they think of the all-time greats, really held that fact against ted.