Baseball History Thread

[OleMissCub]

The flight path of the mammoth shot that Ruth hit in the 1932 World Series which smacked into a ticket booth at the intersection of Waveland and Sheffield:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23232&stc=1&d=1177863396

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23233&stc=1&d=1177863679

[OleMissCub]

How the hell is this guy in the Hall of Fame:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellyge01.shtml

[RynoRules]

Jack Morris is definitely overrated, but he had his "legendary" World Series game, which apparently is more important than his entire mediocre career.

 

Brady Anderson's "one-hit wonder" season was dripping with steroids.

 

Morris's overall career was overrated. His postseason career was not.

 

One hit wonder: How about Kevin Maas?

 

Also, I think people mistake Roger Maris for an all-time great when he really wasn't.

 

EDIT: This is already my fave thread in the history of NSBB.

[RynoRules]

Recently retired players who have to be in the HOF:

 

Roberto Alomar http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/alomaro01.shtml

Craig Biggio http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml

Larry Walker http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/walkela01.shtml

Mike Piazza http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/piazzmi01.shtml

Bernie Williams http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willibe02.shtml

Jeff Bagwell http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bagweje01.shtml

[rocket]

i never realized bernie williams was that good in his prime.

 

but he shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How the hell is this guy in the Hall of Fame:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellyge01.shtml

 

The career ERA+ of infinity is pretty impressive.

[RynoRules]

i never realized bernie williams was that good in his prime.

 

but he shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

 

Why not? He's a CF'er with a career line of .297 / .381 / .477 and 125 (OPS+). Plus he played very good defense at a difficult position and put up a career postseason line of .275 / .371 / .480 in 465 AB's .

 

Had he not played in the Steroids Era and thus been buried behind the Bonds, McGwires, Boones, et al., you'd be whistling a different tune.

[OleMissCub]

another batch of bizarre pictures:

 

Ty Cobb & Joe Dimaggio. "Take it all you Italian bastard!!"

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/cobbjoed.jpg

 

Babe Ruth being clever:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35648&stc=1&d=1202877675

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35649&stc=1&d=1202877694

 

and this from a 1919 newspaper:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37251&stc=1&d=1205101571

[rocket]

i never realized bernie williams was that good in his prime.

 

but he shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

 

Why not? He's a CF'er with a career line of .297 / .381 / .477 and 125 (OPS+). Plus he played very good defense at a difficult position and put up a career postseason line of .275 / .371 / .480 in 465 AB's .

 

Had he not played in the Steroids Era and thus been buried behind the Bonds, McGwires, Boones, et al., you'd be whistling a different tune.

 

oh i hate to sound like colin cowherd...but it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good. i wouldn't lose sleep if he was inducted, but i dunno, he doesn't seem all that spectacular to me. when moises alou retires, do you think he should be in the hall of fame?

[OleMissCub]

oh i hate to sound like colin cowherd...but it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good. i wouldn't lose sleep if he was inducted, but i dunno, he doesn't seem all that spectacular to me. when moises alou retires, do you think he should be in the hall of fame?

 

I'm not sure that's such a good comparison. Not that it is the end all/be all of stats, but Williams' WARP3 is 106.3, Alou's is 80.7.

[rocket]

oh i hate to sound like colin cowherd...but it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good. i wouldn't lose sleep if he was inducted, but i dunno, he doesn't seem all that spectacular to me. when moises alou retires, do you think he should be in the hall of fame?

 

I'm not sure that's such a good comparison. Not that it is the end all/be all of stats, but Williams' WARP3 is 106.3, Alou's is 80.7.

 

anti-cub bias, obviously.

[RynoRules]

i never realized bernie williams was that good in his prime.

 

but he shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

 

Why not? He's a CF'er with a career line of .297 / .381 / .477 and 125 (OPS+). Plus he played very good defense at a difficult position and put up a career postseason line of .275 / .371 / .480 in 465 AB's .

 

Had he not played in the Steroids Era and thus been buried behind the Bonds, McGwires, Boones, et al., you'd be whistling a different tune.

 

oh i hate to sound like colin cowherd...but it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good. i wouldn't lose sleep if he was inducted, but i dunno, he doesn't seem all that spectacular to me. when moises alou retires, do you think he should be in the hall of fame?

 

No, but Alou is not a CF'er either. I think its not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

I see your point, however.

[TruffleShuffle]

bernie williams is borderline. larry walker is not a HoF in my opinion. if he's stayed healthy he would be borderline, but he was hurt too much. his road numbers of .278/.370/.495/.865 also make his career line pale a bit.

[Productive Outs]

unless i'm leaving someone huge out, bernie williams was the 2nd best CF of his generation.

[Derwood]

Why should anyone care about a player's postseason numbers? It's a ridiculously small sample size to base HoF induction on

[RynoRules]

Why should anyone care about a player's postseason numbers? It's a ridiculously small sample size to base HoF induction on

 

Who's basing HoF induction on it? Its one of many factors.

 

When a player has almost 500 postseason AB's and performs well, it deserves consideration.

[haltz]

unless i'm leaving someone huge out, bernie williams was the 2nd best CF of his generation.

The guy playing CF for the Cubs is right there with him at the least:

 

            EqA    BRAA    BtRuns
Edmonds    .303    379     319
Williams   .300    418     311

 

According to Sean Smith's totalzone, Edmonds has been about 130 runs better on defense over their careers (not including this year). That's not the end-all, but it's better than FRAA and most people would say Williams wasn't much of a defender, especially towards the end of his career. At the very least, Jim has twice as many outfield assists.

 

Edmonds kept his EqA1 above .320 for five straight years, and Bernie has four rings, which the writers at least will care about. Bernie also had a longer career and I used above average metrics there on purpose. Neither one are a whole lot different than Duke Snider.

[Productive Outs]

unless i'm leaving someone huge out, bernie williams was the 2nd best CF of his generation.

The guy playing CF for the Cubs is right there with him at the least:

 

            EqA    BRAA    BtRuns
Edmonds    .303    379     319
Williams   .300    418     311

 

According to Sean Smith's totalzone, Edmonds has been about 130 runs better on defense over their careers. That's not the end-all, but it's better than FRAA and most people would say Williams wasn't much of a defender, especially towards the end of his career. At the very least, Jim has twice as many outfield assists.

 

Edmonds kept his EqA1 above .320 for five straight years, and Bernie has four rings, which the writers at least will care about. Neither one are a whole lot different than Duke Snider.

 

haha, i knew that i was forgetting at least one player. i think they're both borderline.

[OleMissCub]

FWIW, Edmonds' WARP3 is 109.1 and Williams' is 106.3

 

Also, I just wanted to bring up the fact that Johnny Damon has a good chance at 3,000. He's 34 and has 2193 right now. If he gets there, will he be the first 3,000 hit man to not make the hall?

[RynoRules]

FWIW, Edmonds' WARP3 is 109.1 and Williams' is 106.3

 

Also, I just wanted to bring up the fact that Johnny Damon has a good chance at 3,000. He's 34 and has 2193 right now. If he gets there, will he be the first 3,000 hit man to not make the hall?

 

Good point about Damon. Along those lines, Juan Pierre has 1,500 hits and is only 30.

[Rob]

FWIW, Edmonds' WARP3 is 109.1 and Williams' is 106.3

 

Also, I just wanted to bring up the fact that Johnny Damon has a good chance at 3,000. He's 34 and has 2193 right now. If he gets there, will he be the first 3,000 hit man to not make the hall?

 

Good point about Damon. Along those lines, Juan Pierre has 1,500 hits and is only 30.

 

Edgar Renteria has 2002 and is only 32. He's the most likely of the group to get to 3000.

[chuckywang]

How the hell is this guy in the Hall of Fame:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellyge01.shtml

 

Eh, you can say the same about Tinker to Evers to Chance.

[OleMissCub]

How the hell is this guy in the Hall of Fame:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellyge01.shtml

 

Eh, you can say the same about Tinker to Evers to Chance.

 

Which reminds me.... Lamest Season for an MVP Winner Ever goes to....

 

Johnny Evers, 1914:

 

.279/.390/.338, 113 OPS+, 1 HR, 20 doubles, 3 triples, 40 RBI, 81 runs, 12 stolen bases.

 

which is especially absurd when you consider the AL winner that year (who actually deserved it, which disproves any theories that the writers must have been completely out of their minds on account of them giving the NL MVP to Evers):

 

Eddie Collins, 1914:

 

.344/.452/.452, 176 OPS+, 2 HR, 23 doubles, 14 triples, 85 RBI, 122 runs, 58 stolen bases.

[imb]

terry pendleton

[haltz]

Maury Wills in 1962 (.293 EqA). He was a valuable player that year thanks to his gaudy stolen base numbers, but Frank Robinson, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron all had EqAs of .340.

 

Dick Groat 1960 - .284 EqA. Willie Mays gets screwed again (.338). He wasn't even the best SS that year. Maybe the writers thought he played great defense? Nope, Banks (.310) won the Gold Glove that year.

 

I think the worst is Marty Marion 1944. He was a below average hitter (though not for his position and he supposedly played great defense) that year with a .256 EqA and not even close to the best player on that Cardinals team. Catcher Walker Cooper had a .305 EqA, and Stan Musial had one of the best seasons of his career (.355), among others.