Baseball History Thread

[TruffleShuffle]

derek jeter.

 

btw, jackie robinson was able to be drafted to serve in the military, but still banned from playing major league baseball. a proud footnote in our nation's history.

[OleMissCub]

Ted Williams in his rookie year in 1939:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38708&d=1207023686

 

His rookie season at age 20, in 149 games, Williams put up this line:

 

.327/.436/.609, 31 HR, 145 RBI, 44 doubles, 11 triples, 185 hits, 107 walks.

 

dude was just SICK.

[TruffleShuffle]

His rookie season at age 20, in 149 games, Williams put up this line:

 

.327/.436/.609, 31 HR, 145 RBI, 44 doubles, 11 triples, 185 hits, 107 walks.

 

dude was just SICK.

 

then after fighting in two wars, he put up these numbers:

 

age 38: .388/.526/.731

age 41: .316/.451/.645

 

and i don't think he was getting the same sort of help in his late 30s and early 40s that barry bonds was.

[OleMissCub]

Best age 20 seasons (in order of OPS+):

 

Ty Cobb: .350/.380/.468, 167 OPS+, 5 HR, 119 RBI, 28 doubles, 14 triples, 49 SB

 

Mel Ott: .328/.449/.635, 165 OPS+, 42 HR, 151 RBI, 37 doubles, 2 triples

 

Mickey Mantle: .311/.394/.530, 162 OPS+, 23 HR, 87 RBI, 37 doubles, 7 triples

 

Al Kaline: .340/.421/.546, 162 OPS+, 27 HR, 102 RBI, 24 doubles, 8 triples

 

Ted Williams: .327/.436/.609, 160 OPS+, 31 HR, 145 RBI, 44 doubles, 11 triples

 

Alex Rodriguez: .358/.414/.631, 160 OPS+, 36 HR, 123 RBI, 54 doubles, 1 triple

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah, I forgot Jeter, he's probably more overrated(though still a deserving HOF.)

[OleMissCub]

Jimmie Foxx had 519 home runs at age 33, but only hit 15 more during his career due to injuries.

[TruffleShuffle]

as part of my argument that ted williams could possibly be considered the best hitter of all time:

 

 

1941: .413 EqA, 12.5 WARP3

1942: .396 EqA, 14.6 WARP3

1943: war

1944: war

1945: war

1946: .393 EqA, 15.5 WARP3

1947: .383 EqA, 12.4 WARP3

 

So those three years were right within the time where he was peaking as a ballplayer. he probably would've had another 40 points in WARP3 and an EqA close to .400 for those years. Add the two years that he missed in Korea and he's probably up around 700 HR for his career, and his career EqA and OPS+ are higher than .365 and 191 because he gets more of his prime production.

[TruffleShuffle]

they needed a 1960 version of FJM:

 

Williams' career, in contrast [to Babe Ruth's], has been a series of failures except for his averages. He flopped in the only World Series he ever played in (1946) when he batted only .200. He flopped in the playoff game with Cleveland in 1948. He flopped in the final game of the 1949 season with the pennant hinging on the outcome (Yanks 5, Sox 3). He flopped in 1950 when he returned to the lineup after a two-month absence and ruined the morale of a club that seemed pennant-bound under Steve O'Neill. It has always been Williams' records first, the team second, and the Sox non-winning record is proof enough of that.

[OleMissCub]

Best all around hitter definitely should go to either Ruth or Williams. Ruth gets the nod for being the better "ballplayer" in my book on account of him being a badass pitcher as well.

 

Williams' WARP3 of 15.5 is just sick. In doing a real quick search to see what other players put up 15+ WARP3 seasons, I came up with this.

 

Ruth: 15.0 (1919), 15.1 (1920), 15.0 (1921), 18.0 (1923) :shock:

 

Cobb: 15.1 (1916)

 

Wagner: 17.1 (1907)

 

A-Rod: 15.4 (2000)

 

Joe Morgan: 15.2 (1975)

 

Barry Bonds: 15.4 (1993), 15.4 (2001)

 

Stan Musial: 15.0 (1943)

 

Eddie Collins: 15.2 (1909)

 

 

note: Ernie Banks barely missed the cut with 14.8 in 1959.

[OleMissCub]

they needed a 1960 version of FJM:

 

Williams' career, in contrast [to Babe Ruth's], has been a series of failures except for his averages. He flopped in the only World Series he ever played in (1946) when he batted only .200. He flopped in the playoff game with Cleveland in 1948. He flopped in the final game of the 1949 season with the pennant hinging on the outcome (Yanks 5, Sox 3). He flopped in 1950 when he returned to the lineup after a two-month absence and ruined the morale of a club that seemed pennant-bound under Steve O'Neill. It has always been Williams' records first, the team second, and the Sox non-winning record is proof enough of that.

 

What's interesting is that most people don't seem to know how truly unpopular Williams was while he played. Bill James makes a great comparison and says that Williams was basically like Albert Belle or Barry Bonds in that he was universally booed wherever he went, and it wasn't just good natured booing because of his celebrity, he genuinely wasn't liked.

[OleMissCub]

Babe Ruth's draft registration card during WWI. I like the "Fenway Park" response to "where employed?".

 

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42497&stc=1&d=1210875048

[TruffleShuffle]

most forgotten great player in history?

 

arky vaughan.

[rocket]

Who's the best one-hit wonder of all-time? Someone who had 1 great season, then for whatever reason, never came close to that one season.

 

Off the top of my head: Brady Anderson

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Who's the best one-hit wonder of all-time? Someone who had 1 great season, then for whatever reason, never came close to that one season.

 

Off the top of my head: Brady Anderson

 

Rick Wilkins

[TruffleShuffle]

Who's the best one-hit wonder of all-time? Someone who had 1 great season, then for whatever reason, never came close to that one season.

 

Off the top of my head: Brady Anderson

 

rick wilkins :x

[rocket]

hey now, rick's 1992 was pretty darn good too

[TruffleShuffle]

hey now, rick's 1992 was pretty darn good too

 

a lot of people forget that brady anderson was a very good player before he hit 50 HRs. he had a career .285 EqA with a few other seasons in the .300 to .310 range. According to the BP stats, he had a higher WARP in 1992 than in his 50 HR season, probably because they have him as a very good fielder in 1992, and a very poor one in 1996. he also stole a whole lot of bases in 1992, but stole fewer (at a worse percentage) in 1996. wonder what would cause one to start hitting more home runs, but become more bulky and reduce one's value on the basepaths and in the field?

Edited June 17, 2008 by TruffleShuffle

[OleMissCub]

most forgotten great player in history?

 

arky vaughan.

 

Absolutely. I think he's probably the most unrecognizable name of anyone in Bill James' top 10 at each position:

 

As of 2000, his top 10 at each position were:

 

Pitcher

 

1. Walter Johnson

2. Lefty Grove

3. Pete Alexander

4. Cy Young

5. Warren Spahn

6. Tom Seaver

7. Christy Mathewson

8. Bob Gibson

9. Kid Nichols

10. Sandy Koufax

 

Catcher

 

1. Yogi Berra

2. Johnny Bench

3. Roy Comapnella

4. Mickey Cochrane

5. Mike Piazza

6. Carlton Fisk

7. Bill Dickey

8. Gary Carter

9. Gabby Hartnett

10. Ted Simmons

 

1st Base

 

1. Lou Gehrig

2. Jimmie Foxx

3. Mark McGwire

4. Jeff Bagwell

5. Eddie Murray

6. Johnny Mize

7. Harmon Killebrew

8. Hank Greenberg

9. Willie McCovey

10. Frank Thomas

 

2nd Base

 

1. Joe Morgan

2. Eddie Collins

3. Rogers Hornsby

4. Jackie Robinson

5. Craig Biggio

6. Napoleon Lajoie

7. Ryne Sandberg

8. Charlie Gehringer

9. Rod Carew

10. Roberto Alomar

 

3rd Base

 

1. Mike Schmidt

2. George Brett

3. Eddie Mathews

4. Wade Boggs

5. Frank Baker

6. Ron Santo (HOF? Hello?)

7. Brooks Robinson

8. Paul Molitor

9. Stan Hack

10. Darrell Evans

 

Shortstop

 

1. Honus Wagner

2. Arky Vaughn

3. Cal Ripken Jr

4. Robin Yount

5. Ernie Banks

6. Barry Larkin

7. Ozzie Smith

8. Joe Cronin

9. Alan Trammell

10. Pee Wee Reese

 

Left Field

 

1. Ted Williams

2. Stan Musial

3. Barry Bonds

4. Rickey Henderson

5. Yaz

6. Joe Jackson

7. Al Simmons

8. Tim Raines

9. Willie Stargell

10. Minnie Minoso

 

Center Field

 

1. Willie Mays

2. Ty Cobb

3. Mickey Mantle

4. Tris Speaker

5. Joe DiMaggio

6. Duke Snider

7. Ken Griffey Jr.

8. Kirby Puckett

9. Jimmy Wynn

10. Larry Doby

 

Right Field

 

1. Babe Ruth

2. Hank Aaron

3. Frank Robinson

4. Mel Ott

5. Pete Rose

6. Tony Gwynn

7. Reggie Jackson

8. Roberto Clemente

9. Paul Waner

10. Sam Crawford

[TruffleShuffle]

a few other freak-out seasons:

 

steve stone's cy young season (though he won the award b/c baseball writers have a chubb for wins)

tommie herr in 1985... and john tudor too

pretty much every player on the 1993 philadelphia phillies (but especially kevin stocker)

norm cash in 1961 - even more fluky than roger maris

dutch leonard in 1914

bob welch in 1989 - more for the win total (27!) than his actual pitching.

ryan ludwick in 2008

[OleMissCub]

Who's the best one-hit wonder of all-time? Someone who had 1 great season, then for whatever reason, never came close to that one season.

 

Off the top of my head: Brady Anderson

 

In 19 seasons, Bert Campaneris averaged 5 HR a year. In 1970 he hit 22.

 

Also, check out Bob Cerv's 1958 season:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cervbo01.shtml

[satxcubfan]

Who's the best one-hit wonder of all-time? Someone who had 1 great season, then for whatever reason, never came close to that one season.

 

Off the top of my head: Brady Anderson

 

In 19 seasons, Bert Campaneris averaged 5 HR a year. In 1970 he hit 22.

 

Also, check out Bob Cerv's 1958 season:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cervbo01.shtml

 

 

 

 

1976: Mark "The Bird" Fidrych http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fidryma01.shtml

 

In his rookie season, he went 19-9 while whispering to the ball. He only lasted 4 seasons after that going a combined 10-10. (Kinda sounds like Mark Prior!)

[OleMissCub]

It is always interesting to read what was written about the legends when they weren't quite legends yet.

 

This is from an article that Walter Johnson wrote in 1925 about the best hitters he ever saw.

 

The greatest natural hitter that I ever saw was Joe Jackson. Joe passed out of it about the time the lively ball came in. It was a bad break for him. How he would have waded through the records with that fast ball to lengthen his hits! Joe's career was cut short by the Black Sox scandal. But I shall never believe that he was a bad fellow at heart. He was easily led and terribly misled by his associates. He paid a heavy penalty.

 

People have asked me if I didn't consider Babe Ruth the greatest of natural hitters. I certainly do not. There are many times when Babe looks terrible at bat. I've seen him miss a ball by two feet. Nobody ever saw Joe Jackson miss a ball two feet. Babe has his particular specialty where no one can equal him. He can hit a ball harder than anybody who ever lived. But why go outside that specialty and make claims for him that aren't true?

 

Babe is certainly a terrific slugger. No one can convince me that his equal ever lived since baseball graduated from the rounders stage. I, for one, do not expect to live long enough to see any other player come up who can hit the ball, day in and day out, as hard as Ruth. Some kind friends have claimed that Lou Gehrig can hit the ball nearly as hard as Babe. Perhaps he can, but if so, it's just nearly. Gehrig may be second best, but he's not and never will be Babe's equal in sheer slugging.

 

People ask me often if I don't consider Ty Cobb the greatest hitter I ever saw. I certainly don't. He was never in Joe Jackson's class as a natural hitter. A number of other hitters have excelled him in natural ability, in my opinion. There again, people go astray. Ty, like Babe, has honors enough without fastening others on him that do not belong.

 

Ty was the smartest player that I ever saw by so great a margin that I won't even bother to think who was second best. And that's credit enough. For brains are just as prominent in baseball as in any other profession. Ty was always about three jumps ahead of the crowd. That's what made him such a wonderful star. You could never dope out what he was going to do next. Always, he had you guessing. He had the infield up in the air. He was continually getting the catcher's goat. The outfield couldn't lay for Ty. They never knew where he would drive the ball.

 

There was a time when Ty was sore at me. That was when he was racing Joe Jackson for the Championship. Joe was hitting me much better than Ty. Ty accused me of putting the ball over for Joe. That was foolish, though I guess he was sincere. The fault lay rather in Ty's system and Joe's superior hitting ability. Joe would lay back with that black bat of his and merely slap at my fast ball. He always had a good chance to connect. Ty favored place hitting and beating out bunts. My fast ball, chest high, that had a tendency to jump, was a tough ball to place. It was also a tough ball to bunt. In later years Ty changed his system and had much better results against my pitching. He was too smart and resourceful to be buffaloed very long by any pitching on earth.

 

In sheer batting ability he had superiors. But in dazzling footwork, mechanical skill and lightning quick thinking he never had an equal. Ty has also graduated. He has taken with him most of the records in the American League. He needs no tribute from a "has-been" pitcher who could once bother him in the heyday of his prime. But I'll say of Ty, as I would say of Babe, he was unique.

 

Some tremendous photos of The Big Train:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/train2.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/train.jpg

[NCCubFan]

1976: Mark "The Bird" Fidrych http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fidryma01.shtml

 

In his rookie season, he went 19-9 while whispering to the ball. He only lasted 4 seasons after that going a combined 10-10. (Kinda sounds like Mark Prior!)

I actually compared Prior to Fidrych a couple of weeks ago in the thread about Prior's latest shoulder surgery.

[Derwood]

Jack Morris is definitely overrated, but he had his "legendary" World Series game, which apparently is more important than his entire mediocre career.

 

Brady Anderson's "one-hit wonder" season was dripping with steroids.

[OleMissCub]

Some interesting things from a winter 1916 edition of Baseball Magazine:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29272&stc=1&d=1189970849

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29201&stc=1&d=1189924754

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29273&stc=1&d=1189970931

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29204&stc=1&d=1189925036

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29208&stc=1&d=1189925298

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29239&stc=1&d=1189959564

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29194&stc=1&d=1189924107

 

and this one of Napoleon Lajoie:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1035/nappe6.jpg

 

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1088/ryanyc6.jpg