Baseball History Thread

[NCCubFan]

Man, I love Willie Mays. Willie is my Dad's favorite player. He got to see him once in SF, but Willie K'd 4 times. Not a very good memory for dear old dad.

 

I like Cobb, too. I'd love to go back in time and watch some games from the early 1900s.

 

If time travel is ever invented, screw killing Hitler. I'm going back in time and watching Cobb, Ruth, DiMaggio, Williams, Mays, Mantle, etc in their primes.

You could then bring Mantle into the future (relative to when he played) when surgical techniques were much better than they were when he played. As good as he was anyway, it would have been interesting to see how good he could have been if his knees hadn't been bad.

[bhogg]

Think of Ted Williams with today's travel benefits, better equipment, diluted pitching, and him not missing 3 years to the War.

[OleMissCub]

Think of Ted Williams with today's travel benefits, better equipment, diluted pitching, and him not missing 3 years to the War.

 

5 years to war! People always forget his Korea service too! Willie Mays missed about 2 years because of Korea also.

[NCCubFan]

Willie Mays missed about 2 years because of Korea also.

And they were the two years immediately following his rookie season. His MVP season of 1954 was his first year back.

[OleMissCub]

The 1923 Cubs.

 

Great photo Coach!

 

We didn't really have any big time players on that team except for Grover Cleveland Alexander (top row, farthest right) and Gabby Hartnett (top row, third from left) who was just entering his sophomore season that year.

[OleMissCub]

Willie Mays missed about 2 years because of Korea also.

And they were the two years immediately following his rookie season. His MVP season of 1954 was his first year back.

 

Correct. I think he's easily over 700 HR's if he doesn't miss those seasons.

[OleMissCub]

I found these two beautiful photographs:

 

Teddy Ballgame from above:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/williams.jpg

 

 

1962 Cubs in Dugout. l to r, Banks, Williams, Altman, Santo, ?, ?, Dick Ellsworth(?), Glen Hobbie, Andre Rodgers, ?, Don Cardwell(?)

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/cubbies.jpg

[TruffleShuffle]

stop biting your nails, ron.

[OleMissCub]

It's incredible to think that in that picture Ronny is only 22 and Billy is 24. We haven't had a single position player come to bat all season that is as young as either of them were at that time.

[Drew Doughty]

It's incredible to think that in that picture Ronny is only 22 and Billy is 24. We haven't had a single position player come to bat all season that is as young as either of them were at that time.

 

Felix Pie is 23.

[OleMissCub]

It's incredible to think that in that picture Ronny is only 22 and Billy is 24. We haven't had a single position player come to bat all season that is as young as either of them were at that time.

 

Felix Pie is 23.

 

Ya ok. I guess I just had a mental block. My brain didn't want to think about Billy and Ronny in the same sentence as Pie.

[erik316wttn]

Think of Ted Williams with today's travel benefits, better equipment, diluted pitching, and him not missing 3 years to the War.

 

Sorry to rehash this old argument, but how come people think Ted Williams would succeed in today's game, but Babe Ruth would wet his pants at the first Kerry Wood fastball? Either both would succeed, or both would fail.

[OleMissCub]

Think of Ted Williams with today's travel benefits, better equipment, diluted pitching, and him not missing 3 years to the War.

 

Sorry to rehash this old argument, but how come people think Ted Williams would succeed in today's game, but Babe Ruth would wet his pants at the first Kerry Wood fastball? Either both would succeed, or both would fail.

 

I didn't know there were people who thought like that. Usually the thought process is "that guy's picture is in black & white, so he'd poop himself if he saw an 80mph pitch" or something else moronic like that. Who would think that Williams would succeed but Babe wouldn't?

[Vanilla Ice]

Billy Williams was a handsome man and I'm not afraid to say it

[Warpticon]

While we're fantasizing about past players in current times...

 

Can you imagine the quotes Dizzy Dean would have out there in today's media environment?

[MSG T]

Can someone explain why pitchers in the 30s-60s could pitch on two days' rest and both ends of a doubleheader without breaking down? I'm looking at Cy Young's wins record on Unbreakable Records on ESPN and it seems like he and others back then were a different species or something

 

Well, what you are implying about pitchers back then and their rubber arms is a bit exaggerated. I think their innings pitched is often times higher than modern pitchers because relievers weren't used as much back then. As a starting pitcher back then, you were generally expected to try and pitch a complete game, win or lose. This actually isn't an idea that is too far away from where we are now. For example, the most complete games last year was 7; in 1998 it was 15; in 1988 it was 15; in 1978 it was 23, and in 1968 it was 30!

 

Let's look at some of the great pitchers throughout history based on their 162 game averages:

 

Cy Young (1890-1911): 32 games started, 290 IP

Christy Mathewson (1900-1916): 31 GS, 274 IP

Mordecai Brown (1903-1916): 27 GS, 265 IP

Walter Johnson (1907-1927): 30 GS, 273 IP

Pete Alexander (1911-1930): 31 GS, 272 IP

Lefty Grove (1925-1941): 28 GS, 249 IP

Carl Hubbell (1928-1943): 30 GS, 252 IP

Dizzy Dean (1930-1947): 28 GS, 244 IP

Bob Feller (1936-1956): 31 GS, 246 IP

Warren Spahn (1942-1965): 31 GS, 251 IP

Whitey Ford (1950-1967): 31 GS, 230 IP

Bob Gibson (1959-1975): 32 GS, 261 IP

Juan Marichal (1960-1975): 33 GS, 257 IP

Ferguson Jenkins (1965-1983): 32 GS, 243 IP

Nolan Ryan (1966-1993): 33 GS, 231 IP

Tom Seaver (1967-1986): 33 GS, 249 IP

Jim Palmer (1965-1984): 32 GS, 248 IP

Steve Carlton (1965-1988): 33 GS, 244 IP

Roger Clemens (1984-2007): 33 GS, 236 IP

Greg Maddux (1986-2008): 33 GS, 230 IP

Randy Johnson (1988-2008): 33 GS, 233 IP

Pedro Martinez (1992-2008): 31 GS, 218 IP

 

some modern guys:

Zambrano: 32 GS, 214 IP

Halladay: 32 GS, 228 IP

Oswalt: 33 GS, 223 IP

Santana: 28 GS, 210 IP

 

The basic games started and innings pitched really hasn't changed all that much throughout history.

 

 

Just wondering, OMC, are you figuring these on todays 5-man rotation, but using their average innings per start? I only ask because I just looked up Christy Mathewson's stats and I'm seeing an awful lot of 40+ games started and 360 innings pitched. And they only played 154 games then.

 

 

 

Btw, just my opinion, but a great hitter 80 years ago would be a great hitter today, assuming they weren't stepping straight out of the time machine, and actually grew up playing in todays game. Williams, Ruth, Gehrig and the other greats of the day, would still end up being great hitters. Maybe they wouldn't have the seasons of .406, or 60 HR's, or 221 OPS+, but they would still be some of the games best hitters.

[OleMissCub]

 

Just wondering, OMC, are you figuring these on todays 5-man rotation, but using their average innings per start? I only ask because I just looked up Christy Mathewson's stats and I'm seeing an awful lot of 40+ games started and 360 innings pitched. And they only played 154 games then.

 

I just got all those stats based off their 162 game averages on BR.

[TruffleShuffle]

i may be talking out of my rear here - i'm not expert in this subject - but isn't it believed that certain pitches thrown more frequently today put more stress on the arm? the slider and splitter are the two i'm thinking of, specifically.

[OleMissCub]

What Bill James' Baseball Abstract has to say about our managers, past and present:

 

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/lou_piniella_autograph.jpg

Lou Piniella

 

With Reggie DHing, Piniella is playing right. Everyone always says that Lou is a lousy outfielder because he doesn't run real good or have a great arm, but [expletive], he catches every ball he can get to. I've always said I'd rather have him out there than most other guys, including Reggie. He's the best slow outfielder in baseball. - Sparky Lyle, The Bronx Zoo

 

For what it is worth, the Win Shares system also rates Piniella as a better defensive outfielder than Reggie. Piniella rates at 2.4 Win Shares per 1,000 defensive innings, which is a mid-range for a left/right fielder. Reggie, although he ran much faster than Piniella and had a powerful arm when he was young, rates at 2.2.

 

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5687/165kp9.jpg

Dusty Baker

 

On June 27, 1984, Dusty Baker stole second, third, and home in the same game. The rest of the season, he stole only one base.

 

Players who hit exactly as many home runs on the road as they did at home:

 

Carlton Fisk -- 188/188

Gary Carter -- 162/162

Vic Wertz -- 133/133

Dusty Baker -- 121/121

Rob Deer -- 115/115

Bill Freehan -- 100/100

Puddin' Head Jones -- 95/95

Charlie Gehringer -- 92/92

Candy Maldonado -- 73/73

Jim Spencer -- 73/73

Dave Johnson -- 68/68

 

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/don_baylor_autograph.jpg

Don Baylor

 

"Don is our triple-threat player. He can hit, run, and lob." - Merv Rettenmund.

 

Don Baylor is the only outfielder in major league history who never doubled off or doubled up a runner. His career double play total was zero. Everybody else in 500 or more games had at least two...

 

The common statement that Baylor was the first Designated Hitter to win an MVP Award is not exactly true. Baylor actually played 97 games in the outfield in 1979.

 

That which defines Don Baylor is, I think, is the image of strength. He projects an image of great strength, great determination and force of will; as Fred White used to say, "He just looks like an RBI standing up there." But personally, I find him almost intolerable, because, to me, he seems to be engaged in a perpetual charade designed to project the image of great strength. As a manager, he seems to be using this image of great strength, great conviction in the rectitude of his actions, as a substitute for having any reason for what he is doing. I'm not suggesting that you should react to him that way; that's just me.

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/jim_lefebvre_autograph.jpg

Jim Lefebvre

 

Won the National League Rookie of the Year Award in 1965, over Joe Morgan. I have Lefebvre that year with 22 Win Shares, which actually is an above-average total for a Rookie of the Year, but Morgan with 31. Morgan may be the only rookie in history to have 31 Win Shares and not win the Rookie of the Year.

 

Lefebvre was a good player for two years, 1965-1966, more or less in the model of Jeff Kent or Davey Johnson. He was part of the only switch-hitting infield in baseball history - Wes Parker, Lefebvre, Jim Gilliam, and Maury Willis. He also appeared in episodes of Gilligan's Island and Batman.

 

Lefebvre managed the Seattle Mariners for three years, 1989-1991. The Mariners, who had gone 68-93 in 1988, improved under Lefebvre to 73-89, 77-95, and 83-79, at which point they fired him, and dropped back to 64-98.

 

Lefebvre was hired to manage the Cubs in 1992. They won 78 games his first year (their best season in three years), and 84 in 1993. Then they fired him, and didn't do as well again for five years.

[OleMissCub]

some cool Lou Gehrig photos:

 

photos inside spoiler

 

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37520&stc=1&d=1205380188

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37522&stc=1&d=1205380276

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37081&stc=1&d=1204724324

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29658&d=1190758106

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/379/lougehrig1920sfm3.jpg

 

Gehrig and Greenberg:

http://education.baseballhalloffame.org/experience/thematic_units/character_education/assets/rivals.jpg

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/alumni/Magazine/images/Fall2001/GehrigCU.jpg

 

Lou Gehrig gently encouraging Babe Dahlgren in the dugout before Dahlgren replaced him as the Yankees' first baseman in Detroit. Gehrig removed himself from the lineup, snapping his consecutive-games-played streak at 2,130.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/sports/year_in_sports/photos/05.02.jpg

 

After his retirement, Gehrig and wife at home:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37079&stc=1&d=1204724253

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37080&stc=1&d=1204724281

 

and filed under the "ummmm....OK" file:

 

http://www.erbzine.com/mag17/lg06h6.jpghttp://www.erbzine.com/mag17/lg10h6.jpg

 

Edited October 25, 2008 by OleMissCub

[Ding Dong Johnson]

professional athletes used to do some awfully weird things away from the field

[TheRealMattKain]

 

Just wondering, OMC, are you figuring these on todays 5-man rotation, but using their average innings per start? I only ask because I just looked up Christy Mathewson's stats and I'm seeing an awful lot of 40+ games started and 360 innings pitched. And they only played 154 games then.

 

I just got all those stats based off their 162 game averages on BR.

 

Long time lurker posting here. Absolutely love this thread. Had to chime in here. You absolutely CANNOT use the baseball-reference 162 game average for pitchers to determine if pitchers started more games or less games during certain eras. The 162 game average for pitchers is normalized to a 34 game season (so, for example, if someone started 68 games back in 1898 that would count as two seasons for the 162 game average used on baseball-reference). Here is a link that clarifies the methodology:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/pitch_glossary.shtml#162_avg

 

Pitchers absolutely started more games and pitched more innings in the past:

http://www.baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=2627

 

Or, as the poster mentioned above, just browse through some pitchers from different eras and look at how many games they started and innings they pitched. Cy Young started over 40 games in a season 11 times during his career and pitched over 350 innings in a season 11 times in his career. No one has started 40 games in a season since Charlie Hough back in 1987 (since 1980 it's only been done twice). No one has pitched over 350 innings in a season since Wilbur Wood back in in 1973. Pitchers started more games and pitched more innings back in the early days of the game. This is indisputable.

[OleMissCub]

professional athletes used to do some awfully weird things away from the field

 

Very true:

 

Speaker liked to wrestle gators in the offseason:

http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/102.jpg

 

Babe was big into his farm:

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37330&stc=1&d=1205188713

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36318&stc=1&d=1203784574

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29241&stc=1&d=1189959728

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29195&stc=1&d=1189924237

 

 

Although they'd probably think pushing buttons on a plastic guitar is pretty weird.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Just wondering, OMC, are you figuring these on todays 5-man rotation, but using their average innings per start? I only ask because I just looked up Christy Mathewson's stats and I'm seeing an awful lot of 40+ games started and 360 innings pitched. And they only played 154 games then.

 

I just got all those stats based off their 162 game averages on BR.

 

Long time lurker posting here. Absolutely love this thread. Had to chime in here. You absolutely CANNOT use the baseball-reference 162 game average for pitchers to determine if pitchers started more games or less games during certain eras. The 162 game average for pitchers is normalized to a 34 game season (so, for example, if someone started 68 games back in 1898 that would count as two seasons for the 162 game average used on baseball-reference). Here is a link that clarifies the methodology:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/pitch_glossary.shtml#162_avg

 

Pitchers absolutely started more games and pitched more innings in the past:

http://www.baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=2627

 

Or, as the poster mentioned above, just browse through some pitchers from different eras and look at how many games they started and innings they pitched. Cy Young started over 40 games in a season 11 times during his career and pitched over 350 innings in a season 11 times in his career. No one has started 40 games in a season since Charlie Hough back in 1987 (since 1980 it's only been done twice). No one has pitched over 350 innings in a season since Wilbur Wood back in in 1973. Pitchers started more games and pitched more innings back in the early days of the game. This is indisputable.

 

Welcome to the forum.

[OleMissCub]

 

Just wondering, OMC, are you figuring these on todays 5-man rotation, but using their average innings per start? I only ask because I just looked up Christy Mathewson's stats and I'm seeing an awful lot of 40+ games started and 360 innings pitched. And they only played 154 games then.

 

I just got all those stats based off their 162 game averages on BR.

 

Long time lurker posting here. Absolutely love this thread. Had to chime in here. You absolutely CANNOT use the baseball-reference 162 game average for pitchers to determine if pitchers started more games or less games during certain eras. The 162 game average for pitchers is normalized to a 34 game season (so, for example, if someone started 68 games back in 1898 that would count as two seasons for the 162 game average used on baseball-reference). Here is a link that clarifies the methodology:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/pitch_glossary.shtml#162_avg

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I figured it was just a simple adding and division method.