Baseball History Thread

[Fred Hornkohl]

 

Just wondering, OMC, are you figuring these on todays 5-man rotation, but using their average innings per start? I only ask because I just looked up Christy Mathewson's stats and I'm seeing an awful lot of 40+ games started and 360 innings pitched. And they only played 154 games then.

 

I just got all those stats based off their 162 game averages on BR.

 

Long time lurker posting here. Absolutely love this thread. Had to chime in here. You absolutely CANNOT use the baseball-reference 162 game average for pitchers to determine if pitchers started more games or less games during certain eras. The 162 game average for pitchers is normalized to a 34 game season (so, for example, if someone started 68 games back in 1898 that would count as two seasons for the 162 game average used on baseball-reference). Here is a link that clarifies the methodology:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/pitch_glossary.shtml#162_avg

 

Pitchers absolutely started more games and pitched more innings in the past:

http://www.baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=2627

 

Or, as the poster mentioned above, just browse through some pitchers from different eras and look at how many games they started and innings they pitched. Cy Young started over 40 games in a season 11 times during his career and pitched over 350 innings in a season 11 times in his career. No one has started 40 games in a season since Charlie Hough back in 1987 (since 1980 it's only been done twice). No one has pitched over 350 innings in a season since Wilbur Wood back in in 1973. Pitchers started more games and pitched more innings back in the early days of the game. This is indisputable.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Welcome again.

 

It should be pointed out that both Charlie Hough and Wilbur Wood, from your example above, threw nothing but knuckleballs.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It should be pointed out that both Charlie Hough and Wilbur Wood, from your example above, threw nothing but knuckleballs.

I was thinking about that watching the all star game and my son made a comment about how old Niekro was. he about crapped himself when I told him I used to watch him pitch. not a lot of strain on the arm/shoulder throwing nothing but a knuckler

[OleMissCub]

I've posted this before, but this is what Bill James wrote in Abstract about Mark Grace, whom he has ranked as his 32nd all time 1st baseman:

 

Mark Grace

 

People think in terms of images. When the Cubs had Grace at first base and Sandberg at second, they used to bat Sandberg second and Grace third. This makes no sense. Grace, who never had much power, was not a good #3 hitter, but would have been a great #2 hitter. With a .308 career average (written in 2000) and a lot of walks, he'd be on base, which is the #1 function of a top of the order guy. As a left handed hitter who could handle the bat, he could hit and run, take advantage of the hole at first if the leadoff man was on, and (as a lefty) be an obstacle to the catcher on stolen base tries.

 

Sandberg, on the other hand, was a just-fair number two hitter, and much better suited to hitting third -- but hit second. Why? Images. We assume, if we don't think about it, that a first baseman hits in the middle of the order, and a second baseman hits at the top of the order if he can hit, the 6-7-8 spots if he doesn't. The Cub managers just never thought about it long enough to get past the images.

 

What he said about Sandberg, whom he has ranked as the 7th all time 2nd baseman:

 

Ryne Sandberg

 

Let's take a look at Ryne Sandberg, not as he will appear on his plaque in Cooperstown, but as he appeared as a rookie in 1982. Sandberg in 1982 was 22 years old, played 156 games for the Cubs, mostly at third base, and hit .271 with 33 doubles, 7 homers, 54 RBI. What is the chance that that player will eventually become a Hall of Famer?

 

Probably better than you would think - probably at least 20%. I looked at this in two ways. One way was to generate a list of the most-comparable players in baseball history (to Sandberg in 1982), including age and defensive position. The resulting fifteen-man list included two actual Hall of Famers, George Kell (1945) and Pie Traynor (1922), plus Pete Rose (1963), who could be said to have had a Hall of Fame career or two. The list also included three other players who had outstanding careers, and one player who is still active and still getting better, plus the list contained multiple seasons of Buddy Bell and Milt Stock, which reduced the number of distinct players on the list to 12.

 

The second way of looking at this issue was to look at the value patterns. Sandberg as a rookie in 1982 earned 16 Win Shares. How often does a 22-year-old rookie who earns 14 to 18 Win Shares go on to a Hall of Fame career?

 

Through 1988 there have been 58 22-year-old rookies in baseball history who have earned 14 to 18 Win Shares. Of those 58 players, nine are in the Hall of Fame now. Of the other 49, several more will be in the Hall of Fame in twenty years. One more player in the group was Ray Chapman, who was perhaps headed to a Hall of Fame career until killed by a pitch. Most of the others on the list were high quality players such as Roy Sievers, Kent Hrbeck, Bill White, Buddy Myer, Bobby Bonds, Rocky Colavito, and Wildfire Schulte. Essentially, I would have to conclude that a 22-year-old rookie non-pitcher who has a season of that quality has a 20 to 35% chance of having a Hall of Fame career.

[sneakypower]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1973.shtml#NLmvp

 

what on Earth?

[OleMissCub]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1973.shtml#NLmvp

 

what on Earth?

 

grit?

[sneakypower]

that's pretty much Ryan Theriot plus a few more XBH

 

from a LF

 

no wonder Joe Morgan seems angry all the time

[OleMissCub]

that's pretty much Ryan Theriot plus a few more XBH

 

from a LF

 

no wonder Joe Morgan seems angry all the time

 

Check out the IP of some of the top AL Cy Young candidates that year:

 

Jim Palmer -296

Nolan Ryan - 326

Catfish Hunter -256

Wilbur Wood - 359

Jim Colborn - 314

Vida Blue - 264

Bert Blyleven - 325

Gaylord Perry - 344

[Mizzou]

Some of the quirky awards that Bill James gives out in The New Bill James Historical Abstract:

 

Worst Award Selection:

90's: 1990, Bob Welch wins the AL Cy Young award.

He was 27-6 that year with a 2.95 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP. No chance of him not winning that year. I know Clemens had a nice year too (a better one), but I'd be pretty shocked if this is the worst decision of the decade.

[OleMissCub]

Some of the quirky awards that Bill James gives out in The New Bill James Historical Abstract:

 

Worst Award Selection:

90's: 1990, Bob Welch wins the AL Cy Young award.

He was 27-6 that year with a 2.95 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP. No chance of him not winning that year. I know Clemens had a nice year too (a better one), but I'd be pretty shocked if this is the worst decision of the decade.

 

Ya, it's not shocking that Welch would win it with that record. Check out their ERA+ that year though.

 

Welch: 126

Clemens: 213

[Mizzou]

Some of the quirky awards that Bill James gives out in The New Bill James Historical Abstract:

 

Worst Award Selection:

90's: 1990, Bob Welch wins the AL Cy Young award.

He was 27-6 that year with a 2.95 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP. No chance of him not winning that year. I know Clemens had a nice year too (a better one), but I'd be pretty shocked if this is the worst decision of the decade.

 

Ya, it's not shocking that Welch would win it with that record. Check out their ERA+ that year though.

 

Welch: 126

Clemens: 213

Oh I'm not denying that Clemens should have won. He clearly should've. I just find it hard to believe that this would be the biggest voter oversight of the decade.

 

Great thread, by the way.

[sneakypower]

yet Clemens finished 4th in the MVP voting, with Welch finishing 9th behind two other Oakland pitchers

 

:-k

[rocket]

yet Clemens finished 4th in the MVP voting, with Welch finishing 9th behind two other Oakland pitchers

 

:-k

 

because clemens was more valuable, but welsh was better. duh.

[OleMissCub]

I don't like Mo Vaughn beating Albert Belle in 1995:

 

Mo: .300/.388/.575, 144 OPS+, 39 HR, 126 RBI, 98 Runs, 28 doubles

 

Belle: .317/.401/.690, 177 OPS+, 50 HR, 126 RBI, 121 Runs, 52 doubles

 

Not shocking that Belle would lose though, being that the media hated his guts.

[NCCubFan]

that's pretty much Ryan Theriot plus a few more XBH

 

from a LF

 

no wonder Joe Morgan seems angry all the time

 

Check out the IP of some of the top AL Cy Young candidates that year:

 

Jim Palmer -296

Nolan Ryan - 326

Catfish Hunter -256

Wilbur Wood - 359

Jim Colborn - 314

Vida Blue - 264

Bert Blyleven - 325

Gaylord Perry - 344

That's the year Wood had both 20 wins and 20 losses (Knucksie did the same thing a few years later). Interestingly Wood had 20 wins again the next year and 20 losses again the following year.

[RynoRules]

If you forget the possibility of 'roids ands corks, Albert Belle had a few seasons that were as dominant as any in history.

 

Career: http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/belleal01.shtml

 

Highlights:

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+

 

1993 26 CLE AL 159 594 93 172 36 3 38 129 23 12 76 96 .290 .370 .552 145

1994 27 CLE AL 106 412 90 147 35 2 36 101 9 6 58 71 .357 .438 .714 193

1995 28 CLE AL 143 546 121 173 52 1 50 126 5 2 73 80 .317 .401 .690 177

1996 29 CLE AL 158 602 124 187 38 3 48 148 11 0 99 87 .311 .410 .623 158

1998 31 CHW AL 163 609 113 200 48 2 49 152 6 4 81 84 .328 .399 .655 171

1999 32 BAL AL 161 610 108 181 36 1 37 117 17 3 101 82 .297 .400 .541 142

 

The man finished with a career OPS-plus of 143 and slugging pct of .564. Had he stayed healthy, its reasonable to believe he would have finished with 500 HR's, more likely 550 or so. What a hitter.

[OleMissCub]

Honus Wagner needs a little love from this thread...

 

162 game avg over 21 seasons: .327/.391/.466, 150 OPS+, 6 HR, 37 doubles, 15 triples, 100 RBI, 101 runs, 42 stolen bases.

 

Best season, 1908: .354/.415/.542, 205 OPS+, 10 HR, 39 doubles, 19 triples, 109 RBI, 100 runs, 53 stolen bases, 17.1 WARP3 (!!!).

 

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7192/wagnerww8.jpg

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33679&d=1199405486

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33845&d=1199565879

http://www.clpgh.org/exhibit/images/gif/flying.gifhttp://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3586&stc=1&d=1126896730

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1328/hansye9.jpghttp://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9453/wagnerda3.jpg

 

 

From Baseball Abstract:

Many people who are casual baseball fans will confuse Honus Wagner and Rogers Hornsby, based just on the facts that they were both truly great players, both middle infielders, they both played a long time ago, and their names sound a bit alike.

 

A more inappropriate confusion is hard to imagine; it's kind of like confusing Ken Griffey with Bernard Gilkey. Hornsby was a great hitter, but a marginal defensive player. Wagner was among the greatest defensive players in the history of baseball. Hornsby was an arrogant, self-righteous racist who was what might be called creatively rude. He invented ways to offend people, and seemed to take pride in his ability to do so. Wagner as a player was quiet, and thought of as shy; after his career he became gregarious, genial, and widely beloved.

 

Short biographical sketches of Rogers Hornsby almost always claim that Hornsby was a fanatic about conditioning. The basis of this claim is that Hornsby never smoked or drank (at all), did not go to the movies in the baseball season because he was afraid they would affect his eyesight, and, as a manager, tried without much success to impose these rules on his players. But Hornsby also slept 11 or 12 hours a night, ate more than he should have, put on weight in the winters, and was basically finished as a player by the age of 33. Being Hornsby, he instructed his players that they also shoudl sleep 11 or 12 hours a night, and gave occasional impromptu lectures on the health benefits of eating lots of steak. Hornsby's rules, said Billy Herman in Wrigleyville, didn't really have anything to do with conditioning, they were just Hornsby's efforts to impose his own habits on everybody else. The success of this effort is reflected, perhaps unfairly, in the fact that Hornsby's wife of 32 years became an alcoholic.

 

Biographical sketches of Honus Wagner, on the other hand, rarely mention his conditioning, although there is abundant evidence that Wagner was a fitness fanatic. Wagner also never used tobacco, and was strongly against the use of tobacco; this was perhaps the only point on which the two men were alike. Wagner would have a beer or two after thh game, but he didn't drink a lot until he was an older man. Wagner played vigorous sports all winter, loved basketball, was careful about what he ate, lifted weights (he may have been the only player of his generation who did, I don't know), and never lectured his teammates about anything.

[OleMissCub]

Just goofing around, if you could create a 25 man roster from any players in MLB history, what would it look like? This shouldn't just be the "greatest 25 players" for these spots type thing, but taking into consideration offensive/defensive balance, speed, lefty-righty in the pitching rotation, etc. Also, given the lack of great relievers throughout much of baseball history, you are allowed to have non-relievers fill spots you'd normally put relievers in. Also, you can assume that players are in their prime, free from injuries, such as Sandy Koufax.

 

 

Pitchers

Pete Alexander - R

Steve Carlton - L

Roger Clemens - R

Bob Gibson - R

Lefty Grove - L

Randy Johnson - L

Walter Johnson - R

Sandy Koufax - L

Greg Maddux - R

Pedro Martinez -R

Christy Mathewson - R

Mariano Rivera - R

 

Catchers

Johnny Bench - bats R

Ivan Rodriguez - R

 

Infielders

Lou Gehrig - 1B - L

Joe Morgan - 2B - L

Alex Rodriguez - SS/3B - R

Pete Rose - 1B/2B/3B/LF/RF - S

Mike Schmidt - 3B - R

Honus Wagner - SS - R

 

Outfielders

Barry Bonds - LF

Ty Cobb - CF/RF - L

Willie Mays - CF - R

Babe Ruth - RF - L

Ted Williams - LF - L

 

 

note:

- Picked Morgan over Hornsby because given the amount of big boppers already on the team, I'd prefer Morgan's better speed and defense over Hornsby.

- There are oodles of players better than Rose, but none in baseball history as versatile: 939 gms at 1st, 673 in LF, 634 at 3B, 628 at 2B, 590 in RF. His ability to switch hit is also valuable.

- Went with Bonds over Mantle in the outfield because of his increased speed.

- Went with Pudge as a backup catcher over Piazza because of his vastly better defense.

[woodchip2153]

I was on a road trip with some cardinal friends awhile ago and we drove past the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame, so I made some wise crack about it which led to a debate about Cubs players vs Cardinal players all time. So since my baseball history knowledge is lacking, I was wondering if someone had a breakdown of teams all time greats at each position so one could do a comparison of Cubs vs Cardinals.

[OleMissCub]

I was on a road trip with some cardinal friends awhile ago and we drove past the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame, so I made some wise crack about it which led to a debate about Cubs players vs Cardinal players all time. So since my baseball history knowledge is lacking, I was wondering if someone had a breakdown of teams all time greats at each position so one could do a comparison of Cubs vs Cardinals.

 

Off the top of my head, players who spent the majority of their careers with these teams:

 

Cubs:

 

C: Gabby Hartnett

1B: Mark Grace (could also be Anson/Chance)

2B: Ryno

3B: Santo

SS: Banks

LF: Williams

CF: Hack Wilson

RF: Sosa

P: Mordecai Brown

P: Ferguson Jenkins

 

Cards:

 

C: Ted Simmons

1B: Pujols

2B: Hornsby

SS: Ozzie Smith

3B: Ken Boyer

LF: Musial

CF: Edmonds

RF: Enos Slaughter

P: Bob Gibson

P: Dizzy Dean

 

*obviously the glaring Cardinals omission is Lou Brock, but if we are going purely by position, then Musial trumps Brock in LF.

[woodchip2153]

I was on a road trip with some cardinal friends awhile ago and we drove past the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame, so I made some wise crack about it which led to a debate about Cubs players vs Cardinal players all time. So since my baseball history knowledge is lacking, I was wondering if someone had a breakdown of teams all time greats at each position so one could do a comparison of Cubs vs Cardinals.

 

Off the top of my head, players who spent the majority of their careers with these teams:

 

Cubs:

 

C: Gabby Hartnett

1B: Mark Grace (could also be Anson/Chance)

2B: Ryno

3B: Santo

SS: Banks

LF: Williams

CF: Hack Wilson

RF: Sosa

P: Mordecai Brown

P: Ferguson Jenkins

 

Cards:

 

C: Ted Simmons

1B: Pujols

2B: Hornsby

SS: Ozzie Smith

3B: Ken Boyer

LF: Musial

CF: Edmonds

RF: Enos Slaughter

P: Bob Gibson

P: Dizzy Dean

 

*obviously the glaring Cardinals omission is Lou Brock, but if we are going purely by position, then Musial trumps Brock in LF.

 

Thanks! So it's pretty even, correct? They probably have the edge with pitching though.

[OleMissCub]

 

Thanks! So it's pretty even, correct? They probably have the edge with pitching though.

 

Ya, the teams are pretty close. The pitching I think is a wash too. Three Finger and Gibson cancel each other out, I think. Dizzy wasn't really around for all that long because of injuries, but at his best he was better than Fergie. However, Jenkins was a workhouse who was very, very good. I think they cancel each other out as well.

[woodchip2153]

 

Thanks! So it's pretty even, correct? They probably have the edge with pitching though.

 

Ya, the teams are pretty close. The pitching I think is a wash too. Three Finger and Gibson cancel each other out, I think. Dizzy wasn't really around for all that long because of injuries, but at his best he was better than Fergie. However, Jenkins was a workhouse who was very, very good. I think they cancel each other out as well.

 

Thanks. I wish I knew more about the history of baseball, but I never make the time to learn.

[OleMissCub]

Aaron Goodman made this artwork for SI's All-Century Team. Unfortunately, the image doesn't show the complete work. There is another side of it that has Managers McGraw, Stengel, and McCarthy, as well as Spahn, Gehrig, Yogi, Jackie, Eckersley, and Lefty Grove.

 

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1941/legendsto4.jpg

[Clem Fandango]

Some of the quirky awards that Bill James gives out in The New Bill James Historical Abstract:

 

Worst Award Selection:

90's: 1990, Bob Welch wins the AL Cy Young award.

He was 27-6 that year with a 2.95 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP. No chance of him not winning that year. I know Clemens had a nice year too (a better one), but I'd be pretty shocked if this is the worst decision of the decade.

 

James was 100% wrong in that assessment. For the 90's the correct answer was, and always will be:

 

1999, Rafael Palmeiro wins the AL Gold Glove for 1B. Games he played at 1B that year: 28

[AlwaysaCub]

Some of the quirky awards that Bill James gives out in The New Bill James Historical Abstract:

 

Worst Award Selection:

90's: 1990, Bob Welch wins the AL Cy Young award.

He was 27-6 that year with a 2.95 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP. No chance of him not winning that year. I know Clemens had a nice year too (a better one), but I'd be pretty shocked if this is the worst decision of the decade.

 

James was 100% wrong in that assessment. For the 90's the correct answer was, and always will be:

 

1999, Rafael Palmeiro wins the AL Gold Glove for 1B. Games he played at 1B that year: 28

 

He devotes half of Palmeiro's player comment to that very award and what could be done about it. But Gold Gloves aren't what he means when he refers to awards, because there are so many given out that there are bound to be some bad ones.