Baseball History Thread

[AlwaysaCub]

Just goofing around, if you could create a 25 man roster from any players in MLB history, what would it look like? This shouldn't just be the "greatest 25 players" for these spots type thing, but taking into consideration offensive/defensive balance, speed, lefty-righty in the pitching rotation, etc. Also, given the lack of great relievers throughout much of baseball history, you are allowed to have non-relievers fill spots you'd normally put relievers in. Also, you can assume that players are in their prime, free from injuries, such as Sandy Koufax.

 

 

Pitchers

Pete Alexander - R

Steve Carlton - L

Roger Clemens - R

Bob Gibson - R

Lefty Grove - L

Randy Johnson - L

Walter Johnson - R

Sandy Koufax - L

Greg Maddux - R

Pedro Martinez -R

Christy Mathewson - R

Mariano Rivera - R

 

Catchers

Johnny Bench - bats R

Ivan Rodriguez - R

 

Infielders

Lou Gehrig - 1B - L

Joe Morgan - 2B - L

Alex Rodriguez - SS/3B - R

Pete Rose - 1B/2B/3B/LF/RF - S

Mike Schmidt - 3B - R

Honus Wagner - SS - R

 

Outfielders

Barry Bonds - LF

Ty Cobb - CF/RF - L

Willie Mays - CF - R

Babe Ruth - RF - L

Ted Williams - LF - L

 

 

note:

- Picked Morgan over Hornsby because given the amount of big boppers already on the team, I'd prefer Morgan's better speed and defense over Hornsby.

- There are oodles of players better than Rose, but none in baseball history as versatile: 939 gms at 1st, 673 in LF, 634 at 3B, 628 at 2B, 590 in RF. His ability to switch hit is also valuable.

- Went with Bonds over Mantle in the outfield because of his increased speed.

- Went with Pudge as a backup catcher over Piazza because of his vastly better defense.

 

I just want to ask why we need 12 pitchers with that team.

 

I would start Berra and use Bench as the defensive replacement.

 

I would start:

Grove

Johnson

Clemens(although I hate to say it)

Gibson

 

Spot start Koufax and Martinez

 

I would Remove Mathewson, who is redundant to Maddux, and replace him with the lefty specialist in Jessie Orosco. I would also remove Pete Alexander and add one of Gossage or Eckersley.

 

You could argue for the Wizard as a defensive replacement and also perhaps someone like Garry Maddox or the young Andruw Jones.

 

And personally, I take Mantle over Cobb. But that's just me.

[erik316wttn]

I was on a road trip with some cardinal friends awhile ago and we drove past the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame, so I made some wise crack about it which led to a debate about Cubs players vs Cardinal players all time. So since my baseball history knowledge is lacking, I was wondering if someone had a breakdown of teams all time greats at each position so one could do a comparison of Cubs vs Cardinals.

 

Off the top of my head, players who spent the majority of their careers with these teams:

 

Cubs:

 

C: Gabby Hartnett

1B: Mark Grace (could also be Anson/Chance)

2B: Ryno

3B: Santo

SS: Banks

LF: Williams

CF: Hack Wilson

RF: Sosa

P: Mordecai Brown

P: Ferguson Jenkins

 

Cards:

 

C: Ted Simmons

1B: Pujols

2B: Hornsby

SS: Ozzie Smith

3B: Ken Boyer

LF: Musial

CF: Edmonds

RF: Enos Slaughter

P: Bob Gibson

P: Dizzy Dean

 

*obviously the glaring Cardinals omission is Lou Brock, but if we are going purely by position, then Musial trumps Brock in LF.

 

Thanks! So it's pretty even, correct? They probably have the edge with pitching though.

 

I think ESPN did something like this several years ago where they made the all-time teams for every MLB franchise.

[OleMissCub]

Let's talk about Ron Santo.

 

 

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1695/ronnieswing2ue0.gif............................http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9922/santofield3pb9.gif

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/0630_large.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/51455515.jpghttp://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/52548689.jpg

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http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/81371465.jpg

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2008-02/35450429.jpg

http://cubshalloffame.com/images/santo1.jpghttp://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18536&d=1170208200

 

Here are the stats of arguably the top 3rd baseman over the past half century (in no particular order). Assuming that Chipper Jones will be elected to the HOF, which I'm sure he will be, all of these guys on the list are HOFers except Santo, of course.

Player          AVG  OBP  SLG  OPS+  AB    R     H    HR   RBI   WARP3  FLD%

Mike Schmidt   .267 .380 .527  147  8352  1506  2234  548  1595  157.3  .955
Eddie Mathews  .271 .376 .509  143  8537  1509  2315  512  1453  145.0  .956
Ron Santo      .277 .362 .464  125  8143  1138  2254  342  1331  119.9  .954
George Brett   .305 .369 .487  135  10349 1583  3154  317  1595  135.7  .951
Bro. Robinson  .267 .322 .401  104  10654 1232  2848  268  1357  114.9  .971
Wade Boggs     .328 .415 .443  130  9180  1513  3010  118  1014  150.6  .962
Chipper Jones  .310 .406  .549 145  7210  1354  2233  404  1353  102.1  .955

 

Top 10 Win Shares of the 1960's:

 

Hank Aaron - 340

Willie Mays - 337

Frank Robinson - 307

Roberto Clemente - 260

Harmon Killebrew - 257

Ron Santo - 247

Mickey Mantle - 247

Willie McCovey - 237

Brooks Robinson - 233

Carl Yastrzemski - 230

 

I posted this several pages back, but it shouldn't hurt to repeat it in case anyone missed it.

 

This is a great Santo article from Bill James' book Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?

 

If I were in control of the Hall of Fame's selections, the first player I would choose would be Ron Santo. Santo retired in 1974, and became eligible for the BBWAA vote in 1980. He drew only fifteen votes in his first year of eligibility, and was dropped from the ballot until 1985, when he and several others players were restored by a review committee.

 

The Hall of Fame, in a sense, has been caught between hops at third base. Third base is a half-and-half position, half of a "slugger's position", like first base or left field, but half of a "glove man's position" like second or short. A good third basemen is expected to contribute both ways, more so than a player at any other position.

 

This in effect, creates a third set of standards, unique to the position. The Hall of Fame selection system uses two distinct sets of de facto standards. Bobby Doerr doesn't have numbers that would put him in the Hall of Fame if he was an outfielder, but he was a second baseman, so he's in. The same with Arky Vaughn, Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey, Johnny Bench, Pee Wee Reese and many others.

Third basemen are neither fish nor fowl; they need a third standard. The system just isn't quite subtle enough to form an intermediate standard, and honor the guys like Santo and Ken Boyer who played a good third base (Santo won five Gold Gloves) and also could hit.

 

This incorporates a general principle of overrated and underrated players - in fact, the most important principle in understanding why some players are underrated. The principle is that specialists are always overrated, while players who do many things well are always underrated. If the public understands that a player does one thing expceptionally well - Tony Gwynn hits lots of singles - they can build on that, and then he'll get credit for everything else he does well, even if there isn't a tremendous lot of it. The public can understand Cecil Fielder because they can immediately identify what he does well, even though, in his case, this is nearly the only thing he does well. It is difficult to get the public to understand that Jay Bell is just as good a player because he does lots of things well.

 

Anyway, only seven third basemen are in the Hall of Fame, not counting the guys from the Negro Leagues. Santo was a much, much better player than Fred Lindstrom or George Kell. He was probably a better player than Home Run Baker, although Baker was very good, and in my opinion he was probably better than Pie Traynor, although the old-timers will think that is crazy. So even though third base is dramatically underrepresented in the Hall of Fame, Santo would rank in the middle of top hall of that group, if he were selected. That's unusual for a player who is still on the outside.

[Derwood]

Santo will get into the HoF, but not until he dies (and then only because people will feel bad). It's a sad indictment on the entire process

[NCCubFan]

I'm not at all sure he won't get in until after he dies. I believe the Veterans Committee is supposed to be modified again before the next election, so I think it's highly possible that a change in the makeup of the committee will get him elected next time. If not for the farce of electing Bill Mazeroski the Veterans Committee probably would never have been changed in the first place and he'd probably be in by now.

[OleMissCub]

I'm not at all sure he won't get in until after he dies. I believe the Veterans Committee is supposed to be modified again before the next election, so I think it's highly possible that a change in the makeup of the committee will get him elected next time. If not for the farce of electing Bill Mazeroski the Veterans Committee probably would never have been changed in the first place and he'd probably be in by now.

 

I'm unfamiliar with what you are talking about, please explain more.

[NCCubFan]

I'm not at all sure he won't get in until after he dies. I believe the Veterans Committee is supposed to be modified again before the next election, so I think it's highly possible that a change in the makeup of the committee will get him elected next time. If not for the farce of electing Bill Mazeroski the Veterans Committee probably would never have been changed in the first place and he'd probably be in by now.

 

I'm unfamiliar with what you are talking about, please explain more.

I don't remember specifics (or even if specifics were mentioned yet). I do remember reading that the Hall was planning to make changes to the process for the Veterans Committee after three consecutive elections failed to result in any inductees. I think the consensus was that it used to be too easy to get in via that route (Bill Mazeroski being elected was used as an example) but now it's too hard (nobody getting in the last three elections), so they're trying to find some middle ground. I'm basing my comments on what I read in the past, so my recollection may not be completely accurate.

[OleMissCub]

I'm not at all sure he won't get in until after he dies. I believe the Veterans Committee is supposed to be modified again before the next election, so I think it's highly possible that a change in the makeup of the committee will get him elected next time. If not for the farce of electing Bill Mazeroski the Veterans Committee probably would never have been changed in the first place and he'd probably be in by now.

 

I'm unfamiliar with what you are talking about, please explain more.

I don't remember specifics (or even if specifics were mentioned yet). I do remember reading that the Hall was planning to make changes to the process for the Veterans Committee after three consecutive elections failed to result in any inductees. I think the consensus was that it used to be too easy to get in via that route (Bill Mazeroski being elected was used as an example) but now it's too hard (nobody getting in the last three elections), so they're trying to find some middle ground. I'm basing my comments on what I read in the past, so my recollection may not be completely accurate.

 

Ah, I know what you are talking about now. In 1971, the Vets Committee elected seven players. It was that which caused the board of trustees of the HOF to enforce a two player per year maximum.

 

Those early 70's VC inductees were crap and were the result of complete and utter cronyism on the part of Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry, who headed the VC.

 

Jesse Haines - pitcher who was a teammate of Frisch and has the lowest Black Ink number of any pitcher in the HOF.

Dave Bancroft - shortstop who was a teammate of Frisch and has a career OPS+ of 98; his Black Ink number is 1 (average HOFer is 27).

Chick Hafey - outfielder who was a teammate of Frisch. He was a good player, but only played in 1283 games.

Ross Youngs - outfielder who was a teammate of Frisch that died at age 30 of Bright's disease. He probably would have had a bona fide HOF career had it not been for his disease, but we all know that isn't a fair reason to put someone in the HOF.

George Kelly - 1st baseman who was a teammate of Frisch. Bill James says his election "is a bad joke."

Jim Bottomley - 1st baseman who was a teammate of Frisch. He's the only one of these crony picks that is actually a marginal HOFer.

Travis Jackson - shortstop who was a teammate of Terry. Ryan Theriot basically.

Fred Lindstrom - 3rd baseman who was a teammate of Terry. His 56.6 WARP3 is pathetic for a HOFer. He was only a starter for seven seasons!

[OleMissCub]

Some more Santo gifs I made:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/rond.gif

 

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/ronpick3.gif

 

 

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/ronthrow.gif

[OleMissCub]

Baseball players in the deadball era were some TOUGH looking dudes:

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3268/2511557553_f8c3c2d815.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2511562343_96b8a26c25.jpg?v=0

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7875/rubeaj6.jpghttp://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/amchiche/Detroit%20Tigers%20HOF/samcrawford1920.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/amchiche/Detroit%20Tigers%20HOF/edkillian.jpghttp://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/17200/17257r.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/17300/17331r.jpghttp://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/11000/11043r.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/50300/50307r.jpghttp://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/17200/17222r.jpg

http://www.bionikmedia.com/images/sports021.jpghttp://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23453&d=1178263492

 

It's no wonder they called him "Babe" instead of George:

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/18400/18459v.jpg

[OleMissCub]

3rd Baseman career WARP3:

 

Mike Schmidt: 157.3

Wade Boggs: 150.6

Eddie Mathews: 145.0

George Brett: 135.7

Ron Santo: 119.9

Brooks Robinson: 114.9

Darrell Evans: 110.0

Robin Ventura: 108.8

Graig Nettles: 104.6

Chipper Jones: 102.1

Stan Hack: 100.3

Scott Rolen: 99.5

Ken Boyer: 99.3

Ron Cey: 97.4

Bob Elliot: 92.8

Matt Williams: 91.2

Jimmy Collins: 90.7

Gary Gaetti: 90.3

Frank Baker: 89.9

Heinie Groh: 89.6

Lave Cross: 88.8

Pie Traynor: 87.7

Tommy Leach: 86.3

Sal Bando: 84.7

 

3rd Baseman career OPS+

 

Mike Schmidt: 147

Chipper Jones: 145

Eddie Mathews: 143

George Brett: 135

Frank Baker: 135

Wade Boggs: 130

Ron Santo: 125

Scott Rolen: 125

Bob Elliot: 124

Troy Glaus: 122

Ron Cey: 121

Sal Bando: 119

Stan Hack: 119

Darrell Evans: 119

Heinie Groh: 118

Ken Caminiti: 116

Robin Ventura: 114

Aramis Ramirez: 112

Matt Williams: 112

Graig Nettles: 110

Melvin Mora: 109

Pie Traynor: 107

Brooks Robinson: 104

[OleMissCub]

On google books they have the full copy of Johnny Evers book that he wrote in 1910 "Touching Second: The Science of Baseball".

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/cover-1.jpghttp://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/evers-1.jpg

Here is a link to the book, all online.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=4jINAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0

 

Check out the "Inside the Game" chapter. Evers has all these diagrams about fielding positions and spray chart type things.

 

In it, he recounts a neat story from the 1908 World Series against the Tigers and talks about the challenges of facing Cobb:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/5.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/4.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/6.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/10.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/8.jpg

 

some other images from the book:

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/cobbever.jpghttp://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/matty.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/nap.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris.jpg

Ya, I'd say so...

 

Some of Evers' charts:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/chart-1.jpghttp://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/chart2.jpg

 

Some of sportswriter Hugh Fullerton's scorecards. Recall it was Fullerton, along with Ring Lardner, that broke the Black Sox scandal by keeping up with errant plays.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/scorecard.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/scoring.jpg

[OleMissCub]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml

 

Bill James (up to date) top 20 HOF Monitor Index of hitters not yet eligible for election:

 

Barry Bonds

Alex Rodriguez

Ken Griffey Jr.

Ivan Rodriguez

Derek Jeter

Mike Piazza

Sammy Sosa

Manny Ramirez

Frank Thomas

Roberto Alomar

Rafael Palmeiro

Vladmir Guerrero

Albert Pujols

Craig Biggo

Ichiro Suzuki

Chipper Jones

Todd Helton

Jeff Bagwell

Larry Walker

Gary Sheffield

 

top 20 all time hitters:

Stan Musial

Ty Cobb

Hank Aaron

Babe Ruth

Willie Mays

Ted Williams

Barry Bonds

Lou Gehrig

Rogers Hornsby

Alex Rodriguez

Jimmie Foxx

Honus Wagner

Pete Rose

Mickey Mantle

Charlie Gehringer

Tony Gwynn

Wade Boggs

Nap Lajoie

Joe DiMaggio

Paul Waner

[Guest]

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/scoring.jpg

 

Do you know when they changed the position numbers to where they are now or was that just his personal scoring system?

[OleMissCub]

Do you know when they changed the position numbers to where they are now or was that just his personal scoring system?

I wish I could tell ya.

 

They were keeping pretty good tabs on stats and scores back into the 1870's, so I'm not sure. I think this is probably just his personal system.

[OleMissCub]

Players that have led the league in certain categories 3 times or more (since 1900)

 

OPS+

 

Babe Ruth - 13

Rogers Hornsby - 12

Ty Cobb - 11

Ted Williams - 9

Mickey Mantle - 9

Barry Bonds - 9

Honus Wagner - 6

Stan Musial - 6

Willie Mays - 6

Mike Schmidt - 6

Jimmie Foxx - 5

Mel Ott - 5

Frank Robinson - 4

Yastrzemski - 4

Reggie Jackson - 4

Mark McGwire - 4

Hank Aaron - 3

George Brett - 3

Dick Allen - 3

Frank Thomas - 3

Willie McCovey - 3

Ralph Kiner - 3

Lou Gehrig - 3

Nap Lajoie - 3

Gavvy Cravath - 3

 

SLG%

 

Babe Ruth - 13

Rogers Hornsby - 9

Ted Williams - 9

Ty Cobb - 8

Barry Bonds - 7

Stan Musial - 6

Honus Wagner - 6

Willie Mays - 5

Jimmie Foxx - 5

Mike Schmidt - 5

Johnny Mize - 4

Frank Robinson - 4

Hank Aaron - 4

Mark McGwire - 4

Mickey Mantle - 4

Yastzremski - 3

Alex Rodriguez - 3

Manny Ramirez - 3

Reggie Jackson - 3

Dick Allen - 3

Nap Lajoie - 3

Willie McCovey - 3

Ralph Kiner - 3

Chuck Klein - 3

 

OBP%

 

Ted Williams - 12

Babe Ruth - 10

Barry Bonds - 10

Rogers Hornsby - 9

Ty Cobb - 7

Stan Musial - 6

Wade Boggs - 6

Lou Gehrig - 5

Yastzremski - 5

Rod Carew - 4

Frank Thomas - 4

Honus Wagner - 4

Joe Morgan - 4

Mel Ott - 4

Tris Speaker - 4

Richie Ashburn - 4

Jimmie Foxx - 3

Manny Ramirez - 3

Mike Schmidt - 3

Edgar Martinez - 3

Jason Giambi - 3

Mickey Mantle - 3

Elbie Fletcher - 3

Arky Vaughan - 3

 

How some of our Cubs favs ranked out in these categories:

 

Ernie Banks:

OPS+: 2nd in '58

SLG: 1st in '58, 2nd in '59

OBP: 9th in '58

 

Billy Williams:

OPS+: 3rd in '65

SLG: 1st in '72, 3rd in '65 and '68

OBP: 2nd in '72

 

Ron Santo:

OPS+: 2nd in '64, 4th in '66

SLG: 2nd in '64

OBP: 1st in '64 and '66, 3rd in '72

 

Ryne Sandberg:

OPS+: 7th in '90

SLG: 2nd in '90, 3rd in '84

OBP: 7th in '91

 

Sammy Sosa:

OPS+: 2nd in '01, 3rd in '02

SLG: 2nd in '98 and '01

OBP: 3rd in '01

 

Mark Grace:

OPS+: 8th in '95

SLG: 10th in '95

OBP: 4th in '89

 

Bill Nicholson:

OPS+: 2nd in '40 & '43

SLG: 2nd in '40, '43, & '44

OBP: 7th in '42 & '43

 

Phil Cavaretta:

OPS+: 2nd in '45, 3rd in '46

SLG: 3rd in '45

OBP: 1st in '45

 

Heine Zimmerman:

OPS+: 1st in '12, 2nd in '13

SLG: 1st in '12

OBP: 5th in '12

 

Hack Wilson:

OPS+: 1st in '30, 2nd in '26 & '27

SLG: 1st in '30, 2nd in '26

OBP: 3rd in '30

 

Gabby Hartnett:

OPS+: 3rd in '35, 4th in '37

SLG: 4th in '37, 5th in '30 and '35

OBP: 3rd in '37, 4th in '35

 

Frank Chance:

OPS+: 4th in '04, '05, & '06

SLG: 5th in '04 & '06

OBP: 1st in '05, 3rd in '03, '06, & '07

 

Johnny Evers:

OPS+: 4th in '08 & '12

SLG: ya right

OBP: 2nd in '08 & '12

 

Kiki Cuyler:

OPS+: 3rd in '25, 5th in '24

SLG: 2nd in '25, 4th in '24

OBP: 3rd in '31

[OleMissCub]

I've done this before, but I feel like doing it again:

 

Player A:

- 12 seasons, 162 game avg: .295/.369/.564, 143 OPS+, 40 HR, 130 RBI, 103 Runs, 41 doubles, 2 triples

- 1539 games: 89.6 WARP3, 565 VORP

 

Player B:

- 12 seasons, 162 game avg: .318/.360/.477, 124 OPS+, 19 HR, 99 RBI, 97 Runs, 38 doubles, 5 triples

- 1783 games: 87.1 WARP3, 505 VORP

 

Player A:

1st ballot - 40 votes

2nd ballot - 19 votes, dropped from ballot.

 

Player B:

1st ballot: 423 votes, Hall of Fame.

[Rob]

Albert Belle and ... Kirby Puckett?

[OleMissCub]

Albert Belle and ... Kirby Puckett?

 

Well, yes. I wasn't really throwing it out there to be guessed upon, because I think we'd already had a slight discussion about this topic several pages back. I just wanted to post it again to show the absurdity of the Hall of Fame and how much net effect being "charming" has on your chances of being a Hall of Famer.

[OleMissCub]

More Santo stats:

 

http://nationalsportsreview.com/2005/03/02/ron-santo-hall-worthy-2/

 

Using TPR, Santo was the best player in baseball from 1964-1968, with a TPR of about 32.5. That is an average of about 6.5 a season and there were only three other seasons in this span that reached 6.5 or more. Santo went a little above 7 a couple of times, which no one else did. Aaron is probably second in this time period with about 22. Santo was in the top 5 in the NL each of these years and first three times. In WS, Santo had 164. Only Allen (170), Mays (169) and Aaron (167) had more in MLB over the years 1964-68. Santo was 6th in WS (with 249) for the whole decade despite not playing in 1960 and getting off to a somewhat slow start in 1961-3. The top six in the decade were

 

Aaron 340

Mays 337

Robinson 307

Clemente 262

Killebrew 257

Santo 249

 

James says that 15 WS is an average season, 20 is an all-star season and 30 is an MVP type season. Santo averaged 32.8 over this period.

 

Pete Palmer has Santo as the 4th best player in TPR in all of MLB from 1961-72:

 

1- Mays (84.6)

2 - Aaron (81.3)

3 - Robinson (64.3)

4 - Santo (45.3)

[OleMissCub]

Another neat article from Bill James' Baseball Abstract about which position players are the "nicest".

There is an old aphorism that a happy life makes a boring biography. There are three biographies of Brooks Robinson which, meaning them no disrespect, seem to illustrate the point. Brooks' hero, as a child, was Stan Musial, which fits, as Musial was the nicest of superstars. In fact, the third basemen generally, if you'll notice, are the nicest stars in the history of the game. Look at the top ten-twenty players listed at each position. Which is the most likeable group of guys? The third basemen, I think. Four of them are famous for being very nice people (Robinson, Mathews, Molitor, and Hack), as were Pie Traynor and Buddy Bell, and the others are all OK, not a real [expletive] among them. Well, Graig Nettles could be a jerk sometimes. The only position which is comparable is the next position over, shortstop; at shortstop you have Wagner, Ripken, Banks, Ozzie Smith, Pee Wee Reese, Luke Appling, but also guys like Maury Wills, Vern Stephens, and Alvin Dark, who could be nice people if they wanted to.

 

The catchers are nice people...near the top of that group you've got Roy Campanella, who was super nice, and Yogi, who was beloved although he was actually kind of a grouch. There are some egos in there (Ted Simmons) and one really unpleasant person (Munson), but they're a likeable lot.

 

At first base you've got Anson, who was anything but a nice person, and Dick Allen, who was charming but petulant, plus Orlando Cepeda. Eddie Murray was probably not as surly as his reputiation, and Johnny Mize did not enjoy a good press. At second, there are some good guys (Gehringer, Sandberg, Lajoie, Collins) but then there was Hornsby, who was just plain nasty, Frisch, who was a hothead, and Jackie Robinson, who was admirable and intelligent, but hardly ingratiating. Johnny Evers, who didn't quite crack the top 20, was never more than about ten minutes away from having a fist fight with somebody.

 

The left fielders are the worst of the bunch; in the top thirty you've got Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson, Joe Jackson, Goose Goslin, Jim Rice, Jesse Burkett, Joe Medwick, Ralph Kiner, and Albert Belle. Boy, there's a family reunion you can leave me out of...the right fielders are almost as bad. You've got Frank Robinson, who has gotten nicer as he has gotten older, plus Reggie, Pete Rose, Clemente. Clemente was a fine person, but hard to get along with. The only really nice guys among the top right fielders were Mel Ott, about whom Durocher said that nice guys finish last, and Al Kaline.

 

In center field, you've got Ty Cobb, enough said, plus Duke Snider, Willie Davis, Hack Wilson, none of whom was as obnoxious as Cobb, but all of whom had their moments.

 

Another neat one:

 

Eric Davis and Darryl Strawberry:

 

* Were both born in the spring of 1962

* Were both born and raised in Los Angeles,

* Were childhood friends

* Were both drafted in 1980,

* Both struck out a great deal. In fact, both struck out more often, per at bat, than Bobby Bonds, who still holds the record for strikeouts in a season.

* Did not hit for a good average, but

* Are 8th and 9th among all listed outfielders in secondary average, because of their walks, stolen bases, and power.

* Have both been injured and out of the top lineup for long periods of time in many seasons, but

* Are both among the 50 best players at their position, despite the career interruptions, and

* Are both cancer survivors.

[TruffleShuffle]

Just goofing around, if you could create a 25 man roster from any players in MLB history, what would it look like?

 

ooh this looks fun. unlike MLB pre-1947, i'm gonna let the blacks play too.

 

Starting five:

Walter Johnson - R (773 PRAA, 3.37 DERA)

Pedro Martinez - R (400 PRAA, 3.12 DERA)

Lefty Grove - L (494 PRAA, 3.38 DERA)

Pete Alexander - R (564 PRAA, 3.53 DERA)

Cy Young - R (860 PRAA, 3.45 DERA)

 

Bullpen

Sandy Koufax - L (233 PRAA, 3.56 DERA)

Tom Seaver - R (409 PRAA, 3.69 DERA)

Roger Clemens - R (682 PRAA, 3.18 DERA)

Satchel Paige - R (N/A)

Steve Carlton - L (266 PRAA, 4.02 DERA)

Mariano Rivera - R (399 PRAA, 2.29! DERA)

 

Starting lineup:

SS - Honus Wagner (career .311 EqA - weighed down by several "poor" years late in his career)

LF - Ted Williams (.359)

RF - Babe Ruth (.363)

1B - Lou Gehrig (.341)

CF - Willie Mays (.330)

C - Josh Gibson (N/A)

3B - Mike Schmidt (.314)

2B - Joe Morgan (.314)

 

Reserves:

C - Yogi Berra (.286)

IF - Alex Rodriguez (.322)

IF - Rogers Hornsby (.337)

OF - Oscar Charleston (N/A)

OF - Ty Cobb (.330)

OF - Barry Bonds (.352)

 

 

Toughest call was CF - Mays, Charleston, Cobb and Mantle (.342) are all worthy candidates of starting, and one of them had to be left off the team. It was also tough to leave off Musial (.332), Warren Spahn (281 PRAA, 4.02 DERA), Bob Gibson (312 PRAA, 3.75 DERA) and Greg Maddux (457 PRAA, 3.65 DERA). I also have a feeling that Jackie Robinson (.308) would've been really awesome if he'd been allowed to play in MLB through his 20s - look at his numbers, and those were put up after his peak.

Edited August 2, 2008 by TruffleShuffle

[OleMissCub]

 

Starting lineup:

CF - Willie Mays

LF - Ted Williams

RF - Babe Ruth

1B - Lou Gehrig

C - Josh Gibson

SS - Honus Wagner

3B - Mike Schmidt

2B - Joe Morgan

 

Williams in the two hole and Mays leading off? I'd have to think that Wagner would have gone better in either of those spots with his speed.

[TruffleShuffle]

 

Starting lineup:

CF - Willie Mays

LF - Ted Williams

RF - Babe Ruth

1B - Lou Gehrig

C - Josh Gibson

SS - Honus Wagner

3B - Mike Schmidt

2B - Joe Morgan

 

Williams in the two hole and Mays leading off? I'd have to think that Wagner would have gone better in either of those spots with his speed.

 

yeah i didn't really put much thought into lineup order, i just said "all these guys are awesome" and "this lineup will score a lot of runs no matter what." actually i had ty cobb hitting leadoff, but then decided to make him a reserve and mays a starter. i still like williams in the 2-hole because of his absurd .482 OBP. i guess a better order would be:

 

SS - Honus Wagner

LF - Ted Williams

RF - Babe Ruth

1B - Lou Gehrig

CF - Willie Mays

C - Josh Gibson

3B - Mike Schmidt

2B - Joe Morgan

 

i'm gonna go back and edit my post, putting in everyone's career EqA.

[OleMissCub]

actually i had ty cobb hitting leadoff, but then decided to make him a reserve and mays a starter.

 

That's an extremely hard decision to make from those two guys. With the way your team is set up, you'd probably want Mays starting in CF because his defensive prowess would make up for any deficiencies caused by Williams and Ruth. However, Cobb was considered to be an incredible defensive player during his era, second only to Tris Speaker. On the other hand, with the amount of brute sluggers on your team, you might want a higher OBP and baserunning wizard like Cobb on your team. Imagine a lineup with Cobb (48 steals on average), Morgan (42 steals), and Wagner (42 steals). Like I said though, it's really an impossible choice because you really couldn't go wrong with either of them.