When Soriano comes back up - who goes down?

[SouthSideRyan]

Sosa in 1995 (linked for huge):

Sosa in 1996:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:k_-RcmWR5MOC3M:http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/006/823/09F.jpg

 

Sosa in 1998:

http://internetfm.com/gif/sosa1.jpg

 

Can't say I see a real marked difference in there.

 

You can't? Look at his legs.

 

The pictures are from different angles.

[Mizzou]

It still boggles my mind that people think the only way a guy can get bigger (over a period of several years, no less) is by taking steroids. Have any of you that feel that way ever worked out? It's pretty amazing actually -- if you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger! Crazy concept!

[Backtobanks]

It still boggles my mind that people think the only way a guy can get bigger (over a period of several years, no less) is by taking steroids. Have any of you that feel that way ever worked out? It's pretty amazing actually -- if you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger! Crazy concept!

 

If you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger. If you lift a lot of weights and take steroids your muscles get a lot bigger.

[shnsajax]

It still boggles my mind that people think the only way a guy can get bigger (over a period of several years, no less) is by taking steroids. Have any of you that feel that way ever worked out? It's pretty amazing actually -- if you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger! Crazy concept!

 

If you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger. If you lift a lot of weights and take steroids your muscles get a lot bigger.

 

I can pretty much promise you if I dedicated myself to a strict diet and specific workout program over 1 year you would see a remarkable difference. In 3 years it would be huge. Its very possible.

[Vanilla Ice]

I was wondering how this thread made it to 3 pages

[Bull]

It still boggles my mind that people think the only way a guy can get bigger (over a period of several years, no less) is by taking steroids. Have any of you that feel that way ever worked out? It's pretty amazing actually -- if you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger! Crazy concept!

 

If you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger. If you lift a lot of weights and take steroids your muscles get a lot bigger.

 

I can pretty much promise you if I dedicated myself to a strict diet and specific workout program over 1 year you would see a remarkable difference. In 3 years it would be huge. Its very possible.

 

Not to mention that these athletes have the best trainers, technology and equipment, PLUS rather than dividing time between family, job, workout, this IS their job and they're away from family.

[imb]

when the entirety of your argument is that you think it's possible that he may have done steroids, it's probably a good idea to shut up

[Hairyducked Idiot]

One example where a player had a Sosa-like transformation at age 29 or later, before 1993.

 

One?

[bukie]

One example where a player had a Sosa-like transformation at age 29 or later, before 1993.

 

One?

 

Jim Hickman, statistically, or are you saying physically?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

One example where a player had a Sosa-like transformation at age 29 or later, before 1993.

 

One?

 

Jim Hickman, statistically, or are you saying physically?

 

Statistically. And although that's an impressive jump late in a career, I wouldn't call it Sosa-like. That's just me, though.

[Tracer Bullet]

One example where a player had a Sosa-like transformation at age 29 or later, before 1993.

 

One?

 

Jim Hickman, statistically, or are you saying physically?

 

Statistically. And although that's an impressive jump late in a career, I wouldn't call it Sosa-like. That's just me, though.

 

I love this standard. "Find one guy who had a similar late-career jump." "Here's one." "Ok. Now find one that I think is similar. I'll tell you when you've found it."

[bukie]

One example where a player had a Sosa-like transformation at age 29 or later, before 1993.

 

One?

 

Jim Hickman, statistically, or are you saying physically?

 

Statistically. And although that's an impressive jump late in a career, I wouldn't call it Sosa-like. That's just me, though.

 

It was a significant, unprecedented jump in power and patience. Remember the era also, of the high mound and dominant pitchers of the late 60's, so a jump of 20 HRs in one season was really unheard of.

 

Most of the other similar "late bloomers" are more due to teams simply not giving them a chance until their 30s or going off to fight in WWI or WWII during their prime years (Hank Sauer, Dixie Walker, Dazzy Vance, Earl Caldwell). Nobody is suggesting that Sosa's jump in productivity wasn't rare. It was rare (and, of course, not nearly as rare in the "steroid era"), but mostly due to a change of patience, which isn't something that a steroid-assisted boost would provide.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Most of the other similar "late bloomers" are more due to teams simply not giving them a chance until their 30s or going off to fight in WWI or WWII during their prime years (Hank Sauer, Dixie Walker, Dazzy Vance, Earl Caldwell). Nobody is suggesting that Sosa's jump in productivity wasn't rare. It was rare (and, of course, not nearly as rare in the "steroid era"), but mostly due to a change of patience, which isn't something that a steroid-assisted boost would provide.

 

Fair enough. I'm still iffy, but it's certainly in a gray area.

 

On the last part, though, HGH improves eyesight, a major part of plate discipline.

[Tyrant]

 

I love this standard. "Find one guy who had a similar late-career jump." "Here's one." "Ok. Now find one that I think is similar. I'll tell you when you've found it."

 

Hickman had one fluke season. After his big year, he dropped back down to his career norms.

 

Sammy's OPS jumped almost 250 points in one season, and it stayed there for a long time. That's completely unnatural for a 29 year old with more than 4,200 Major League at bats.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

I love this standard. "Find one guy who had a similar late-career jump." "Here's one." "Ok. Now find one that I think is similar. I'll tell you when you've found it."

 

Hickman had one fluke season. After his big year, he dropped back down to his career norms.

 

Sammy's OPS jumped almost 250 points in one season, and it stayed there for a long time. That's completely unnatural for a 29 year old with more than 4,200 Major League at bats.

 

Jeff Kent's late career OPS+ improvement is at least as interesting as Sammy Sosa's. From a 100-110 guy in his 20's to a 140-160 in his 30's. Sammy gradually went from sub 100, to above 100, to the 120's to 160+.

[Backtobanks]

It still boggles my mind that people think the only way a guy can get bigger (over a period of several years, no less) is by taking steroids. Have any of you that feel that way ever worked out? It's pretty amazing actually -- if you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger! Crazy concept!

 

If you lift a lot of weights, your muscles get bigger. If you lift a lot of weights and take steroids your muscles get a lot bigger.

 

I can pretty much promise you if I dedicated myself to a strict diet and specific workout program over 1 year you would see a remarkable difference. In 3 years it would be huge. Its very possible.

 

Not to mention that these athletes have the best trainers, technology and equipment, PLUS rather than dividing time between family, job, workout, this IS their job and they're away from family.

 

By the way, I'm not taking sides on the Sosa steroids discussion, I'm just pointing out that dedication and lifting weights weren't the only ways that some players used to bulk up. As for the "best trainers", you might be talking about the best drug dealers.

[jersey cubs fan]

I didn't realize you asked for pre-1993.

 

A big problem with that is pre 90's, weight lifting was frowned upon in baseball. My high school baseball coach hated those of us that lifted for football and wrestling. Drove him nuts. He wanted everybody lanky. He also wanted everything hit on the ground. Weight lifting became popular in the game around the same time guys like Sammy, Kent and Luis Gonzalez were adding a spark to their game later than normal.

 

While I think it's likely that Sammy did stuff, I have zero proof to base that on and feel uncomfortable assuming he did.

[Rob]

Oh, I keep forgetting to mention this every time somebody starts spouting off about muscle gains in a year or two...

 

In high school, I had lifted weights for football for a few years, and while I worked hard, it wasn't anything special. After my junior year, I was benching 205 and squatting 315.

 

At that point, I began to work out fanatically, lifting for 2-3 hours or so a day, 4 days a week. In a mere 9 months, I increased my bench press to 320 pounds and my squat to 585. (not a typo) All of this was done without the use of steroids, or even the use of supplements or protein shakes.

 

So if I, as an amateur, with no help from personal trainers, nutritionists, etc... can increase my muscle mass by such a huge extent in 9 months, how is it that a man like Sammy Sosa, who is obviously more athletic than I ever was, can't increase his muscle mass by a smaller amount even with access to amenities that I didn't have available?

[Tyrant]

how is it that a man like Sammy Sosa, who is obviously more athletic than I ever was, can't increase his muscle mass by a smaller amount even with access to amenities that I didn't have available?

 

Because most baseball players don't build mass like that, and they have access to the same trainers, facilities, diets, etc.

 

Even if you compare Sammy to other professional athletes, his muscle growth is suspicious.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

I love this standard. "Find one guy who had a similar late-career jump." "Here's one." "Ok. Now find one that I think is similar. I'll tell you when you've found it."

 

Hickman had one fluke season. After his big year, he dropped back down to his career norms.

 

Sammy's OPS jumped almost 250 points in one season, and it stayed there for a long time. That's completely unnatural for a 29 year old with more than 4,200 Major League at bats.

 

Really that different? In Hickman's typical peak years (25-29) his OPS+ was mid-high 90s with 1 mid 80s year. At age 32, he jumped up 20 points of OPS+ to 110, had a fluke 155, then back to 112 and 125. 4 seasons all at least 20 points higher than his other career high.

 

Sosa had 3 seasons of OPS+ in the 120s when he was 25-27. Terrible year by his standards at age 28 (OPS+ 99), then jumped to OPS+ of 160 at age 29. Having a "peak" around age 29 isn't nearly as odd has peaking at age 32-35, I think. Anyway, sustained 150-160-ish OPS+ for 3 years, had the freak 203 OPS+ at age 32. Back to 160, then 133, then 113, then fell off in Baltimore (going from the NLC to the ALE, didn't help).

 

Identical? Nope. But similar? Sure. Significant jump in production in their 30s sustained over several years, including 1 particularly big "fluke" year.

 

As for Sosa's huge jump in OPS, sure, it was big. But it was due in large part to more walks, both IBB and unintentional-intentional. Check out that '01 team. Would you have pitched to anyone other than Sosa? Yes, his SLG was up 100 points, but his HR and 2B were in line with where he'd been. The previous year he had "only" 50 HRs, but a career-high 38 doubles. In '01, he had his 2nd highest totals in HR and doubles in the same year he had a career high in walks, solely attributable to 18 more IBBs than he'd ever had.

 

I have no idea whether Sammy used steroids, HGH or whatever. Given the era he was in and the fact that he hit 60+ HRs in 3 different years in his early 30s, there's reason to suspect he did. But he's never been directly linked to it, despite lots of people jumping up to name other big stars. And having great seasons in your young 30s isn't totally unheard of. I wish I could find LD% and BABIP #s for those years as I'd like to see what role pure luck played.

Edited April 22, 2008 by yanrslatr

[Tracer Bullet]

how is it that a man like Sammy Sosa, who is obviously more athletic than I ever was, can't increase his muscle mass by a smaller amount even with access to amenities that I didn't have available?

 

Because most baseball players don't build mass like that, and they have access to the same trainers, facilities, diets, etc.

 

Even if you compare Sammy to other professional athletes, his muscle growth is suspicious.

 

Really? Seems like lots of kids, especially football players, gain significant muscle mass in college, for example. As for baseball players, rumors were that Sammy worked out religiously. I have no idea whether that's true or not. But he certainly hasn't taken the Miguel Cabrera approach of eating himself silly. You think if Cabrera went from eating like a pig to using a trainer/personal chef, he wouldn't drastically change his body in 2 years?

 

As I said before, I have no idea if Sammy used steroids and there's certainly reason to be suspicious. But I don't think it's the near certainly that you seem to argue it is.

[carolinacubbie]

Back to the original post, hopefully Fontenot. If Pie can keep swinging the bat like he has the past two days, what need is there for Mike? Pie can do those LH pinching hitting roles when he isn't starting.

[NCCubFan]

And the season Cedeno is having makes Fontenot even more expendable. Between Cedeno, Theriot, and DeRosa 2B and SS are more than ably manned. I think sending Fontenot down is a no-brainer.

[RedFlash]

And the season Cedeno is having makes Fontenot even more expendable. Between Cedeno, Theriot, and DeRosa 2B and SS are more than ably manned. I think sending Fontenot down is a no-brainer.

 

I wonder if a team like the Giants might be interested in Fontenot? As you said, with Cedeno/Theriot/DeRosa at the 2b/ss in Chicago, and Eric Patterson at AAA, I don't see the reason to keep Fontenot once Soriano returns.

[anabiono]

And the season Cedeno is having makes Fontenot even more expendable. Between Cedeno, Theriot, and DeRosa 2B and SS are more than ably manned. I think sending Fontenot down is a no-brainer.

 

I wonder if a team like the Giants might be interested in Fontenot? As you said, with Cedeno/Theriot/DeRosa at the 2b/ss in Chicago, and Eric Patterson at AAA, I don't see the reason to keep Fontenot once Soriano returns.

 

what exactly do you want from the giants for fontenot?!?