R.I.P. Felix Pie's Career (2001-April 20, 2008)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

From August 4-9 last season, Derrek Lee had a stretch of 3-for-25 with no extra-base hits and 7 strikeouts.

 

Had that been the first time Cubs fans had been exposed to him, might they have decided he was overmatched in the bigs and wanted Daryle Ward?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

How would you have handled things to date?

 

Started Pie versus righties and Johnson versus lefties, just like the original plan at the beginning of the season. It'd take at least a month, maybe two, before I deviate from any Opening Day plans based on on-field performance.

 

Then again, I'm not a big believer in "playing the hot hand." I compare it to timing the stock market. All it does is guarantee you'll miss the beginning of what otherwise would have been a hot streak, and always get the beginning of the slumps.

How bad would short term performance have to be before you changed your mind? What other factors could influence your decision? Or would you stick with that original plan for a month no matter what (barring injury)?

 

If he was swinging a mile late and missing literally every single pitch by two feet in both games and batting practice, I might consider making the move a week earlier. Short of that, there is absolutely nothing that would make me change anything in the first month of the season.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm worried about where this is headed, given the team's history. But I don't have a problem with how the CF situation has been handled to date. I like Reed against lefties - guys who have routinely handcuffed the Cubs in recent years. I also like that Pie has gotten an appearance or two against lefties. Hopefully he'll be getting a few more swings against righties coming up and going forward.

[Guest]

How would you have handled things to date?

 

Started Pie versus righties and Johnson versus lefties, just like the original plan at the beginning of the season. It'd take at least a month, maybe two, before I deviate from any Opening Day plans based on on-field performance.

 

Then again, I'm not a big believer in "playing the hot hand." I compare it to timing the stock market. All it does is guarantee you'll miss the beginning of what otherwise would have been a hot streak, and always get the beginning of the slumps.

How bad would short term performance have to be before you changed your mind? What other factors could influence your decision? Or would you stick with that original plan for a month no matter what (barring injury)?

 

If he was swinging a mile late and missing literally every single pitch by two feet in both games and batting practice, I might consider making the move a week earlier. Short of that, there is absolutely nothing that would make me change anything in the first month of the season.

Difference of opinion then. I love having a plan, but after years and years in the planning business I also recognize the need to quickly and continually adapt to changing circumstances. I definitely see your point of view, but I don't think that either one is necessarily right or wrong.

 

Plenty of room for friendly debate!

[Sammy Sofa]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

 

I'm a fan of the Cubs finally developing another quality position player, which Felix has a really, really good chance of being. The team's offense recently demonstrates that in no way is Reed Johnson the person they need in there for them to win. Again, I have no problem with him getting the start in the last two games as they faced lefties, but with how this team has been raking, Felix should be in there more due to the "safety net" of the team's general offense.

[jersey cubs fan]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

 

I'm a fan of the Cubs finally developing another quality position player, which Felix has a really, really good chance of being. The team's offense recently demonstrates that in no way is Reed Johnson the person they need in there for them to win. Again, I have no problem with him getting the start in the last two games as they faced lefties, but with how this team has been raking, Felix should be in there more due to the "safety net" of the team's general offense.

 

The second really is unnecessary. And the first is probably overkill as well. I think he's got somewhere between a decent-to-good chance of being a quality position player.

 

 

Soto has a really, really good chance. And may already be a quality position player.

[Sammy Sofa]

Fair enough.

 

I'd still like to see Felix get more starts.

[TheDude]

the problem isnt Reed Johnson, it's that Pie was given a total of four games as a starter and has been firmly entrenched in the dog house ever since.

 

It took 1 game for Eric Patterson to get sent back down.

It took 8 pitches for Pignatiello to get sent down.

It took 7 ABs for Soto to get sent back to Iowa last year.

 

and so forth

It took you only one post to distort the context of each of those situations! You win!

[brinoch]

I suspect that Felix is receiving a lot of instruction from Lou and Gerald and I have no doubt that his career is far from over. I'm just thankful that Johnson is doing as well as he is while they iron out Pie's swing.

[Tracer Bullet]

How would you have handled things to date?

 

Started Pie versus righties and Johnson versus lefties, just like the original plan at the beginning of the season. It'd take at least a month, maybe two, before I deviate from any Opening Day plans based on on-field performance.

 

Then again, I'm not a big believer in "playing the hot hand." I compare it to timing the stock market. All it does is guarantee you'll miss the beginning of what otherwise would have been a hot streak, and always get the beginning of the slumps.

How bad would short term performance have to be before you changed your mind? What other factors could influence your decision? Or would you stick with that original plan for a month no matter what (barring injury)?

 

If he was swinging a mile late and missing literally every single pitch by two feet in both games and batting practice, I might consider making the move a week earlier. Short of that, there is absolutely nothing that would make me change anything in the first month of the season.

Difference of opinion then. I love having a plan, but after years and years in the planning business I also recognize the need to quickly and continually adapt to changing circumstances. I definitely see your point of view, but I don't think that either one is necessarily right or wrong.

 

Plenty of room for friendly debate!

 

What circumstances have changed in the last 3 weeks that support giving Pie fewer ABs than originally planned (other than the hand/wrist injury, which I'm not sure was as much to blame for him missing time as was suggested)?

[jersey cubs fan]

What circumstances have changed in the last 3 weeks that support giving Pie fewer ABs than originally planned (other than the hand/wrist injury, which I'm not sure was as much to blame for him missing time as was suggested)?

 

Hopefully it's just the injury, all the lefties, and Johnson's hot streak. Pie's really bad at bats may be worthy of a temporary breather as well. It's hard to say what the original plan was. If they were thinking of getting him 450 PA this year, nothing has happened to change that plan longterm. But at any given time, the plan to play him or not depends on the situation.

[Tracer Bullet]

What circumstances have changed in the last 3 weeks that support giving Pie fewer ABs than originally planned (other than the hand/wrist injury, which I'm not sure was as much to blame for him missing time as was suggested)?

 

Hopefully it's just the injury, all the lefties, and Johnson's hot streak. Pie's really bad at bats may be worthy of a temporary breather as well. It's hard to say what the original plan was. If they were thinking of getting him 450 PA this year, nothing has happened to change that plan longterm. But at any given time, the plan to play him or not depends on the situation.

 

I thought the plan was a pretty straight platoon. Maybe the injury caused him to miss a game or two, but he's missed quite a few that aren't explained by the injury or the LHP. Maybe Lou wants to shorten his swing and that's causing him to miss time now.

 

My point was - Tim suggested that you have to change your plans quickly when circumstances change. I agree to a point, but other than the injury, I don't see anything that would require abandoning the plan so quickly. I was wondering what he thought those changed circumstances were.

[rawaction]

The only problem I have so far with the usage of Pie is doubleswitching him out of the game after 3 innings vs. Matt Morris. I don't mind him sitting recently, because I believe the coaching staff is working hard with him to turn things around and will get him back in the lineup soon.

[Tyrant]

I still am curious how long people would allow Felix to struggle while receiving regular at bats.

[Sammy Sofa]

I still am curious how long people would allow Felix to struggle while receiving regular at bats.

 

Personally, two solid months of regular starts.

[jersey cubs fan]

What circumstances have changed in the last 3 weeks that support giving Pie fewer ABs than originally planned (other than the hand/wrist injury, which I'm not sure was as much to blame for him missing time as was suggested)?

 

Hopefully it's just the injury, all the lefties, and Johnson's hot streak. Pie's really bad at bats may be worthy of a temporary breather as well. It's hard to say what the original plan was. If they were thinking of getting him 450 PA this year, nothing has happened to change that plan longterm. But at any given time, the plan to play him or not depends on the situation.

 

I thought the plan was a pretty straight platoon. Maybe the injury caused him to miss a game or two, but he's missed quite a few that aren't explained by the injury or the LHP. Maybe Lou wants to shorten his swing and that's causing him to miss time now.

 

My point was - Tim suggested that you have to change your plans quickly when circumstances change. I agree to a point, but other than the injury, I don't see anything that would require abandoning the plan so quickly. I was wondering what he thought those changed circumstances were.

 

I'm not so sure they've abandoned the plan. They've faced a bunch of lefties and Lou specifically wanted to sit Pie and work on some things. I'm worried about how that will affect the plan the rest of the way, but I'm not convinced it has changed. Add in the hot streak by Johnson (plus how well the team as a whole has played) and I can see the justification for how the CF situation has been handled to date.

[rawaction]

I'm a huge Pie fan, but you can't be stupid about it. If he's not the best player, he shouldn't be out there everyday. I think in the not to distant future he will be the best player for CF on the roster. Being that he is the future, though, you have to get him more PT than you would the rest of the bench players, especially guys like Ward and Fontenot.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The Cubs coaching staff "working with him" is another thing that worries me.

 

If his swing was good enough to put up a monster season in AAA, it'll be good enough to be adequate for a CFer in the majors. Changing hitters makes me very nervous.

[jersey cubs fan]

I still am curious how long people would allow Felix to struggle while receiving regular at bats.

 

Personally, two solid months of regular starts.

 

If regular starts and at bats means almost all right handers, I'd go much longer than two months of struggling. But that also depends on the level of struggle. Does he have a 240 OPS? Or 650? If he's truly abysmal, maybe 2 months gets him sent to AAA. But what is Johnson giving you at the time? I have no interest in dealing for another CF, so the position will have to be filled internally.

 

Basically I need to know more, but two months is on the shorter end of the range for me. Felix is going to struggle, that much I'm almost certain of. What we don't know is if he'll ever improve after the struggles, and to learn that we need a lot of time.

[bukie]

Personally, since Felix is such a good defender, I'd like to see him get switched in more regularly in games where the Cubs build a sizeable lead. And early enough to get a couple ABs in those situations.

[jersey cubs fan]

The Cubs coaching staff "working with him" is another thing that worries me.

 

If his swing was good enough to put up a monster season in AAA, it'll be good enough to be adequate for a CFer in the majors. Changing hitters makes me very nervous.

 

I'd be more worried if it was the previous staff. I haven't lost all faith in the current group.

[Tyrant]

If his swing was good enough to put up a monster season in AAA, it'll be good enough to be adequate for a CFer in the majors.

 

Not necessarily true.

[Tracer Bullet]

What circumstances have changed in the last 3 weeks that support giving Pie fewer ABs than originally planned (other than the hand/wrist injury, which I'm not sure was as much to blame for him missing time as was suggested)?

 

Hopefully it's just the injury, all the lefties, and Johnson's hot streak. Pie's really bad at bats may be worthy of a temporary breather as well. It's hard to say what the original plan was. If they were thinking of getting him 450 PA this year, nothing has happened to change that plan longterm. But at any given time, the plan to play him or not depends on the situation.

 

I thought the plan was a pretty straight platoon. Maybe the injury caused him to miss a game or two, but he's missed quite a few that aren't explained by the injury or the LHP. Maybe Lou wants to shorten his swing and that's causing him to miss time now.

 

My point was - Tim suggested that you have to change your plans quickly when circumstances change. I agree to a point, but other than the injury, I don't see anything that would require abandoning the plan so quickly. I was wondering what he thought those changed circumstances were.

 

I'm not so sure they've abandoned the plan. They've faced a bunch of lefties and Lou specifically wanted to sit Pie and work on some things. I'm worried about how that will affect the plan the rest of the way, but I'm not convinced it has changed. Add in the hot streak by Johnson (plus how well the team as a whole has played) and I can see the justification for how the CF situation has been handled to date.

 

I can understand why they're playing Johnson more too, but that's not really the point. I understand that they're working on his swing, but they're still not playing him against RHP. Maybe they've only "suspended" the plan, but that's just semantics. Fact is, we do not have a platoon in CF. We have a starter (Reed) and a backup that almost never plays (Pie). Maybe if Lou decides Pie has "fixed" whatever Lou thinks is wrong with his swing and/or if Reed starts to suck, Pie will get more ABs. But that's still not the same as sticking with the platoon.

 

The point of all of this is I don't think Lou has encountered different circumstances which necessitated a change in the platoon plan. I think Pie struggled for a few games and Reed started hot so Reed got more ABs. If Reed stops playing so well, Pie will start getting more ABs. But based on how quickly he's shifted people around in the past (I remember early last season the excuse people gave on here was "Lou's just figuring out his new team" or something), I'm skeptical that Pie will see 450 ABs, barring Reed getting injured or totally sucking for a month.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If his swing was good enough to put up a monster season in AAA, it'll be good enough to be adequate for a CFer in the majors.

 

Not necessarily true.

 

 

Respectfully disagree. Major-league pitchers are better, but they aren't 120 points of batting average better. If Pie tanks completely this season, it'll be because he tanked, not the jump from AAA to the majors.

[rawaction]

If his swing was good enough to put up a monster season in AAA, it'll be good enough to be adequate for a CFer in the majors.

 

Not necessarily true.

 

 

Respectfully disagree. Major-league pitchers are better, but they aren't 120 points of batting average better. If Pie tanks completely this season, it'll be because he tanked, not the jump from AAA to the majors.

 

I disagree with you. ML pitchers are miles better. Ever hear of Roosevelt Brown? Julio Zuleta? Trenidad Hubbard? Those are all guys who at completely ripped AAA pitching for multiple years. None of them amounted to anything in the majors.

 

Triple A is full of journeymen who will never be major league pitchers. Though, ML pitching is watered down, most of the league isn't Les Walrond. There is a huge difference in being able to hit an average ML pitcher and being able to hit a AAA pitcher. We all hate Jason Marquis, but he is so much better than your run of the mill AAA pitcher that it's not funny.