R.I.P. Felix Pie's Career (2001-April 20, 2008)

[Guest]

I'm so tired of over the top sarcasm, overreactions, conclusion jumping, absolutism, etc. I wish I could hand out warnings, suspensions & bannings for all that crap, but it's not really against the board rules. It just makes the board less interesting.

 

You make the board rules, am I right? You could change it.

 

I don't think it makes it less interesting. Overreaction and hyperbole is in many Cub fans' DNA. I dare say the majority, actually.

 

This one, however, is a on a level that's beyond what most would say, even me in my worst Cub doldrums.

Wow. The thread title was supposed to be a joke. Considering how serious most people take this board, it doesn't surprise me that so many people caught feelings. Delete the thread if you want. What this board really needs is more Theriot grit jokes, condescending posts towards anyone who doesn't worship Baseball Prospectus, Hendry fat jokes, and remarks about sportswriters.

It's the condescending posts that I'm referring to as much as anything else.

[Sammy Sofa]

...in favor of a journeyman outfielder

 

A "journeyman" outfielder who is on his second team?

 

I'm posting from 5 years into the future.

 

And no, the Cubs still haven't won a WS.

[Elrhino]

I'm wondering why everyone considers Pie such a great prospect in the first place. For people who supposedly value quality at bats, they sure have gotten behind a player with stunningly bad plate discipline at every level of the minor leagues. Couple an astonishingly bad eye with a long, loopy swing and I suspect Pie's ceiling is a poor man's Soriano ... when he's hot and he's seeing the ball well and his BABIP is high he's an effective player, but the other times he's an albatross in the lineup. Except, I highly doubt he'll have the power to slug at the rate of Soriano. So what are we looking at here? A .750 OPS type of guy ... which is exactly what Johnson is. And this is singlehandedly dooming the Cubs future?

[imb]

I'm wondering why everyone considers Pie such a great prospect in the first place. For people who supposedly value quality at bats, they sure have gotten behind a player with stunningly bad plate discipline at every level of the minor leagues. Couple an astonishingly bad eye with a long, loopy swing and I suspect Pie's ceiling is a poor man's Soriano ... when he's hot and he's seeing the ball well and his BABIP is high he's an effective player, but the other times he's an albatross in the lineup. Except, I highly doubt he'll have the power to slug at the rate of Soriano. So what are we looking at here? A .750 OPS type of guy ... which is exactly what Johnson is. And this is singlehandedly dooming the Cubs future?

 

He should be at least an .800 OPS guy that plays superb defense, I can't imagine why anyone would want to get him at bats.

[gerby23]

I'm wondering why everyone considers Pie such a great prospect in the first place. For people who supposedly value quality at bats, they sure have gotten behind a player with stunningly bad plate discipline at every level of the minor leagues. Couple an astonishingly bad eye with a long, loopy swing and I suspect Pie's ceiling is a poor man's Soriano ... when he's hot and he's seeing the ball well and his BABIP is high he's an effective player, but the other times he's an albatross in the lineup. Except, I highly doubt he'll have the power to slug at the rate of Soriano. So what are we looking at here? A .750 OPS type of guy ... which is exactly what Johnson is. And this is singlehandedly dooming the Cubs future?

 

He should be at least an .800 OPS guy that plays superb defense, I can't imagine why anyone would want to get him at bats.

 

That is dangerous sentence structure there.

[Mizzou]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

[Guest]

I'm wondering why everyone considers Pie such a great prospect in the first place. For people who supposedly value quality at bats, they sure have gotten behind a player with stunningly bad plate discipline at every level of the minor leagues. Couple an astonishingly bad eye with a long, loopy swing and I suspect Pie's ceiling is a poor man's Soriano ... when he's hot and he's seeing the ball well and his BABIP is high he's an effective player, but the other times he's an albatross in the lineup. Except, I highly doubt he'll have the power to slug at the rate of Soriano. So what are we looking at here? A .750 OPS type of guy ... which is exactly what Johnson is. And this is singlehandedly dooming the Cubs future?

I have no trouble with your post all the way up to the last sentence. Why the need to throw that out there? Nobody is saying that.

[Guest]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

If leaving your starter out there for 140 pitches gives you the best chance of winning on a given night, should you do that? Should you run Marmol out there for two innings of relief for four straight days because that's what gives you the best chance of winning on those given nights?

 

Sometimes you need to lessen your odds on a given night to support the greater goal.

[Mizzou]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

If leaving your starter out there for 140 pitches gives you the best chance of winning on a given night, should you do that? Should you run Marmol out there for two innings of relief for four straight days because that's what gives you the best chance of winning on those given nights?

 

Sometimes you need to lessen your odds on a given night to support the greater goal.

Putting someone in a position to get injured is a completely different discussion. I'm talking about putting the best team out there at 1:20 each day, not making short sighted decisions as the game progresses.

[Guest]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

If leaving your starter out there for 140 pitches gives you the best chance of winning on a given night, should you do that? Should you run Marmol out there for two innings of relief for four straight days because that's what gives you the best chance of winning on those given nights?

 

Sometimes you need to lessen your odds on a given night to support the greater goal.

Putting someone in a position to get injured is a completely different discussion. I'm talking about putting the best team out there at 1:20 each day, not making short sighted decisions as the game progresses.

It's not the exact same thing, but there are certainly similarities. If you want to switch the analogy a bit, then I'll posit this: why give position players days off? It's not really about reducing their risk of injury as much as trying to preserve their long-term production, right? So, if you agree with putting a lesser lineup out there once in a while to give guys a rest with the purpose of having everyone as fresh and productive as possible for the stretch drive, then surely you must be able to see some logic in letting a rookie (or near rookie) get some time out there early in the season to make the required adjustments so that you can field a stronger team in August, September and (hopefully) October, right?

[Mizzou]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

If leaving your starter out there for 140 pitches gives you the best chance of winning on a given night, should you do that? Should you run Marmol out there for two innings of relief for four straight days because that's what gives you the best chance of winning on those given nights?

 

Sometimes you need to lessen your odds on a given night to support the greater goal.

Putting someone in a position to get injured is a completely different discussion. I'm talking about putting the best team out there at 1:20 each day, not making short sighted decisions as the game progresses.

It's not the exact same thing, but there are certainly similarities. If you want to switch the analogy a bit, then I'll posit this: why give position players days off? It's not really about reducing their risk of injury as much as trying to preserve their long-term production, right? So, if you agree with putting a lesser lineup out there once in a while to give guys a rest with the purpose of having everyone as fresh and productive as possible for the stretch drive, then surely you must be able to see some logic in letting a rookie (or near rookie) get some time out there early in the season to make the required adjustments so that you can field a stronger team in August, September and (hopefully) October, right?

Some time? Absolutely. I'm not saying that Pie should ride the bench every day, and only play after the 7th inning when we're up by X amount of runs. Clearly he's not going to get better just by taking BP every day. I just don't feel that this is the time or place for him to be given an unlimited amount of at bats, just so he can work through his problems. We've got someone else who's currently smacking the ball all over the place and isn't having any problems adjusting to new pitching.

[Guest]

The ironic thing is that the Cubs' offense doing so well should be encouragement to play Felix more, since they could deal with him struggling more easily with all the runs being scored. Yes, the last couple of games were aganst lefties, so Johnson should have started, but acting like he's the lynchpin of this offense and needs to be in there as much as possible aganst all pitchers isn't realistic. The team is showing they can work around a young player adjusting right now, and they should capitalize on that as opposed to making as much time as possible for a journeyman riding a hot streak.

No, they should put out the team that will give them the best chance of winning on a given night. Right now, Johnson gives them a much better chance than Pie does.

 

This isn't directed towards you... just a general statement. But it seems like some people are fans of Pie first and the Cubs second.

If leaving your starter out there for 140 pitches gives you the best chance of winning on a given night, should you do that? Should you run Marmol out there for two innings of relief for four straight days because that's what gives you the best chance of winning on those given nights?

 

Sometimes you need to lessen your odds on a given night to support the greater goal.

Putting someone in a position to get injured is a completely different discussion. I'm talking about putting the best team out there at 1:20 each day, not making short sighted decisions as the game progresses.

It's not the exact same thing, but there are certainly similarities. If you want to switch the analogy a bit, then I'll posit this: why give position players days off? It's not really about reducing their risk of injury as much as trying to preserve their long-term production, right? So, if you agree with putting a lesser lineup out there once in a while to give guys a rest with the purpose of having everyone as fresh and productive as possible for the stretch drive, then surely you must be able to see some logic in letting a rookie (or near rookie) get some time out there early in the season to make the required adjustments so that you can field a stronger team in August, September and (hopefully) October, right?

Some time? Absolutely. I'm not saying that Pie should ride the bench every day, and only play after the 7th inning when we're up by X amount of runs. Clearly he's not going to get better just by taking BP every day. I just don't feel that this is the time or place for him to be given an unlimited amount of at bats, just so he can work through his problems. We've got someone else who's currently smacking the ball all over the place and isn't having any problems adjusting to new pitching.

Sorry for the long quote, but the part I'm addressing is at the center.

 

You now seem to be arguing both sides of this. Is your position that we should field the team that has the best chance to win every single day as you imply in the innermost quote? Or have you softened that position to say that we should get Pie some time against guys he matches up well against or perhaps when we're facing the Pittsburgh's of the world and have a very solid chance of winning that day even with a bit of reduced production out of CF?

[Tyrant]

So, if you agree with putting a lesser lineup out there once in a while to give guys a rest with the purpose of having everyone as fresh and productive as possible for the stretch drive, then surely you must be able to see some logic in letting a rookie (or near rookie) get some time out there early in the season to make the required adjustments so that you can field a stronger team in August, September and (hopefully) October, right?

 

I'm wondering how long people want Pie to play before he could rightfully be pulled from the lineup. 200 more at bats? 400 at bats? A full season? Two seasons?

 

Giving a player a day off to rest has a clear benefit. Playing Pie in the hopes that he'll be better come August is something that doesn't have a guaranteed payoff.

 

I totally understand the need to find at bats for Felix. But his swing looks terrible right now. It sounds like Lou is working really hard with him on the side to get it shortened up. I support giving a player at bats to figure things out approach-wise. But I don't think it helps much to give him game at bats to try and fix his mechanics. If anything, he'll revert to poor mechanics because it's comfortable and he's trying to get a hit.

[Mizzou]

Sorry for the long quote, but the part I'm addressing is at the center.

 

You now seem to be arguing both sides of this. Is your position that we should field the team that has the best chance to win every single day as you imply in the innermost quote? Or have you softened that position to say that we should get Pie some time against guys he matches up well against or perhaps when we're facing the Pittsburgh's of the world and have a very solid chance of winning that day even with a bit of reduced production out of CF?

I'm not 100% either way. It's a tough call, because on one hand you've got a guy who has torn up minor league pitching and deserves to be at this level. But on the other hand, that same guy hasn't done anything at this level to show that he can be successful here. If I'm Lou Piniella, what I would do right now is continue to start Reed Johnson. If a matchup presents itself that doesn't favor Reed, give Pie a start. If Pie starts showing that he can have success at this level (something he still hasn't done), then I start mixing him in more often. But there's no way that I sit a hot player to give a very cold player a chance to adjust.

 

People seem to forget that Pie was handed the starting job. It didn't take much for him to lose it, so if he wants it back I wouldn't imagine it would take much for that to happen either.

[Guest]

So, if you agree with putting a lesser lineup out there once in a while to give guys a rest with the purpose of having everyone as fresh and productive as possible for the stretch drive, then surely you must be able to see some logic in letting a rookie (or near rookie) get some time out there early in the season to make the required adjustments so that you can field a stronger team in August, September and (hopefully) October, right?

 

I'm wondering how long people want Pie to play before he could rightfully be pulled from the lineup. 200 more at bats? 400 at bats? A full season? Two seasons?

 

Giving a player a day off to rest has a clear benefit. Playing Pie in the hopes that he'll be better come August is something that doesn't have a guaranteed payoff.

 

I totally understand the need to find at bats for Felix. But his swing looks terrible right now. It sounds like Lou is working really hard with him on the side to get it shortened up. I support giving a player at bats to figure things out approach-wise. But I don't think it helps much to give him game at bats to try and fix his mechanics. If anything, he'll revert to poor mechanics because it's comfortable and he's trying to get a hit.

I'm actually not entirely against what Lou is doing right now. I'd be more aggressive in getting him at bats in favorable situations, but I can completely understand the approach he's taking. In my opinion, Lou is protecting Pie while he makes some mechanical adjustments, which is fine.

 

However, at some point, Pie has to get game action to develop. In addition to the swing mechanics, Felix clearly still needs to work on reading and reacting to quality pitches at the major league level. He's not going to be able to work on that aspect in bp and has to get in the games to develop that aspect of his game. There will be some growing pains, no doubt. But the payoff with Pie, while not certain, should be more than what we'll get long-term from having Reed playing full-time.

[Guest]

Sorry for the long quote, but the part I'm addressing is at the center.

 

You now seem to be arguing both sides of this. Is your position that we should field the team that has the best chance to win every single day as you imply in the innermost quote? Or have you softened that position to say that we should get Pie some time against guys he matches up well against or perhaps when we're facing the Pittsburgh's of the world and have a very solid chance of winning that day even with a bit of reduced production out of CF?

I'm not 100% either way. It's a tough call, because on one hand you've got a guy who has torn up minor league pitching and deserves to be at this level. But on the other hand, that same guy hasn't done anything at this level to show that he can be successful here. If I'm Lou Piniella, what I would do right now is continue to start Reed Johnson. If a matchup presents itself that doesn't favor Reed, give Pie a start. If Pie starts showing that he can have success at this level (something he still hasn't done), then I start mixing him in more often. But there's no way that I sit a hot player to give a very cold player a chance to adjust.

 

People seem to forget that Pie was handed the starting job. It didn't take much for him to lose it, so if he wants it back I wouldn't imagine it would take much for that to happen either.

Thanks for the response. The position we end up at for filling out near-term lineups isn't much different, but I think we come to that position in different ways.

[CuseCubFan69]

So, if you agree with putting a lesser lineup out there once in a while to give guys a rest with the purpose of having everyone as fresh and productive as possible for the stretch drive, then surely you must be able to see some logic in letting a rookie (or near rookie) get some time out there early in the season to make the required adjustments so that you can field a stronger team in August, September and (hopefully) October, right?

 

I'm wondering how long people want Pie to play before he could rightfully be pulled from the lineup. 200 more at bats? 400 at bats? A full season? Two seasons?

 

Giving a player a day off to rest has a clear benefit. Playing Pie in the hopes that he'll be better come August is something that doesn't have a guaranteed payoff.

 

I totally understand the need to find at bats for Felix. But his swing looks terrible right now. It sounds like Lou is working really hard with him on the side to get it shortened up. I support giving a player at bats to figure things out approach-wise. But I don't think it helps much to give him game at bats to try and fix his mechanics. If anything, he'll revert to poor mechanics because it's comfortable and he's trying to get a hit.

I'm actually not entirely against what Lou is doing right now. I'd be more aggressive in getting him at bats in favorable situations, but I can completely understand the approach he's taking. In my opinion, Lou is protecting Pie while he makes some mechanical adjustments, which is fine.

 

However, at some point, Pie has to get game action to develop. In addition to the swing mechanics, Felix clearly still needs to work on reading and reacting to quality pitches at the major league level. He's not going to be able to work on that aspect in bp and has to get in the games to develop that aspect of his game. There will be some growing pains, no doubt. But the payoff with Pie, while not certain, should be more than what we'll get long-term from having Reed playing full-time.

 

The nice thing about Reed playing well is that it stops (hopefully) the Cubs from dealing for a CF.

[Guest]

So, if you agree with putting a lesser lineup out there once in a while to give guys a rest with the purpose of having everyone as fresh and productive as possible for the stretch drive, then surely you must be able to see some logic in letting a rookie (or near rookie) get some time out there early in the season to make the required adjustments so that you can field a stronger team in August, September and (hopefully) October, right?

 

I'm wondering how long people want Pie to play before he could rightfully be pulled from the lineup. 200 more at bats? 400 at bats? A full season? Two seasons?

 

Giving a player a day off to rest has a clear benefit. Playing Pie in the hopes that he'll be better come August is something that doesn't have a guaranteed payoff.

 

I totally understand the need to find at bats for Felix. But his swing looks terrible right now. It sounds like Lou is working really hard with him on the side to get it shortened up. I support giving a player at bats to figure things out approach-wise. But I don't think it helps much to give him game at bats to try and fix his mechanics. If anything, he'll revert to poor mechanics because it's comfortable and he's trying to get a hit.

I'm actually not entirely against what Lou is doing right now. I'd be more aggressive in getting him at bats in favorable situations, but I can completely understand the approach he's taking. In my opinion, Lou is protecting Pie while he makes some mechanical adjustments, which is fine.

 

However, at some point, Pie has to get game action to develop. In addition to the swing mechanics, Felix clearly still needs to work on reading and reacting to quality pitches at the major league level. He's not going to be able to work on that aspect in bp and has to get in the games to develop that aspect of his game. There will be some growing pains, no doubt. But the payoff with Pie, while not certain, should be more than what we'll get long-term from having Reed playing full-time.

The nice thing about Reed playing well is that it stops (hopefully) the Cubs from dealing for a CF.

Hopefully so.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm mostly worried about what it says about the Cubs' decision-making processes that jobs can be taken away after four games.

 

If they thought Reed Johnson was a better option, they should have given him the job outright. If Pie was going to be completely overmatched by big-league hitting (which I still don't believe, everyone has slumps), why was he given the job in the first place? Why didn't our scouts see that?

[Guest]

I'm mostly worried about what it says about the Cubs' decision-making processes that jobs can be taken away after four games.

 

If they thought Reed Johnson was a better option, they should have given him the job outright. If Pie was going to be completely overmatched by big-league hitting (which I still don't believe, everyone has slumps), why was he given the job in the first place? Why didn't our scouts see that?

Well, there's more than a couple sides to that story. Instead of looking at it that way, you could say that Johnson took the job away with his excellent performance so far. Or you could say that Felix gave the impression during spring that he's be able to make the required adjustments on the fly, but then the combination of his slump and Johnson performing at such a high level has allowed Lou to give him extra time to work on the mechanical issues before throwing him back out there to face game pitching. Or perhaps Hendry has clued them in (or they have simply been paying attention) to Corey's reception with the fans out there and they don't want Felix getting booed out of Wrigley before he has a chance to adjust. Or...

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Well, there's more than a couple sides to that story. Instead of looking at it that way, you could say that Johnson took the job away with his excellent performance so far. Or you could say that Felix gave the impression during spring that he's be able to make the required adjustments on the fly, but then the combination of his slump and Johnson performing at such a high level has allowed Lou to give him extra time to work on the mechanical issues before throwing him back out there to face game pitching. Or perhaps Hendry has clued them in (or they have simply been paying attention) to Corey's reception with the fans out there and they don't want Felix getting booed out of Wrigley before he has a chance to adjust. Or...

 

All of those scenarios still make the Cubs the type of team that are swayed to make playing-time decisions by small streaks. And that is a bad thing.

[Guest]

Well, there's more than a couple sides to that story. Instead of looking at it that way, you could say that Johnson took the job away with his excellent performance so far. Or you could say that Felix gave the impression during spring that he's be able to make the required adjustments on the fly, but then the combination of his slump and Johnson performing at such a high level has allowed Lou to give him extra time to work on the mechanical issues before throwing him back out there to face game pitching. Or perhaps Hendry has clued them in (or they have simply been paying attention) to Corey's reception with the fans out there and they don't want Felix getting booed out of Wrigley before he has a chance to adjust. Or...

 

All of those scenarios still make the Cubs the type of team that are swayed to make playing-time decisions by small streaks. And that is a bad thing.

How would you have handled things to date?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

How would you have handled things to date?

 

Started Pie versus righties and Johnson versus lefties, just like the original plan at the beginning of the season. It'd take at least a month, maybe two, before I deviate from any Opening Day plans based on on-field performance.

 

Then again, I'm not a big believer in "playing the hot hand." I compare it to timing the stock market. All it does is guarantee you'll miss the beginning of what otherwise would have been a hot streak, and always get the beginning of the slumps.

[Guest]

How would you have handled things to date?

 

Started Pie versus righties and Johnson versus lefties, just like the original plan at the beginning of the season. It'd take at least a month, maybe two, before I deviate from any Opening Day plans based on on-field performance.

 

Then again, I'm not a big believer in "playing the hot hand." I compare it to timing the stock market. All it does is guarantee you'll miss the beginning of what otherwise would have been a hot streak, and always get the beginning of the slumps.

How bad would short term performance have to be before you changed your mind? What other factors could influence your decision? Or would you stick with that original plan for a month no matter what (barring injury)?

[BigbadB]

If I'm Lou Piniella, what I would do right now is continue to start Reed Johnson. If a matchup presents itself that doesn't favor Reed, give Pie a start. If Pie starts showing that he can have success at this level (something he still hasn't done), then I start mixing him in more often. But there's no way that I sit a hot player to give a very cold player a chance to adjust.

 

I love what Reed has done thus far. However, he will be overmatched against RHP most of the time. That is the time to get Pie into ball games. Especially a junk tossing righty. Against someone like Peavy or Cueto, I might go with Johnson. But, it doesn't do the team any good to lean on Johnson and have Pie continue to struggle and not get major league at bats.

 

The health of CF depends on the success of Pie against RHP.