Re: Marty Brennaman hates us :(

[Laura]

If Marty thought Cubs fans were obnoxious before, he'll be in for a real treat next time he comes to town.

[SouthSideRyan]

So nobody's got that audio file? Disappointing.

[Laura]

I read something about how it happened in the first inning. When I get home, I'll check gameday audio and see if I can track it down.

[SouthSideRyan]

In my searching it looks like Gameday Audio removed that part from the archived file. Commies.

[Guest]

In my opinion, the thing that bothers me is people like Marty Brennaman's inability to remember that there is a big difference between "Cubs fans" and the people who show up at Wrigley Field and sit in the bleachers.. Instead of saying "Cubs fans are the most obnoxious...." He should say,"The general public that shows up at Wrigley Field for night and Saturday games...." I'd be willing to bet(as others have posted before) that Wrigley contains the largest number of "tourists" or people not even from Chicago of any park in the country with the possible exception of Fenway, and I'd doubt that even Fenway is close.

 

For the record, "Cubs fans" are the 5,000-10,000 or so people you'll find for any Cubs series in places like Colorado, or Cincinnati or Atlanta, or wherever. I'll never forget Turner Field in '03, when Game 5 of the NLDS was pretty much turned into a home game.

 

The bolded is an excellent point, though I think you could just say "the general public that shows up at Wrigley for virtually any game".

 

The thing that Hornbuckle missed out on is that when saying "Cubs fans" you have to remember that because of WGN, the Cubs have a huge and widespread fanbase so when using the term "Cubs fans" you are talking about all of them. And yet, a high number of Cubs fans, myself included, rarely or never get a chance to go to a Cubs game at Wrigley and yet when Marty Brennaman says that all Cubs fans act a certain way, he is including ALL Cubs fans with that statement. By looking at only the Cubs fans who a) go to Cubs games and b) sit in the bleachers, you're really narrowing your sample size of Cubs fans and to extrapolate that to all Cubs fans is not only wrong but stupid as well.

 

The Cubs also have a larger fan base than most of the teams in the majors and with that comes a larger number of idiots. But yet, in the end, the percentage of Cubs fans who are idiots are going to be about the same as the average in the majors. Every team does have stupid fans but because those teams have less fans, they have less idiots. To put it in a baseball way, Player A and Player B both average one home run every 10 AB's but Player A gets 600 AB's while Player B only gets 200. Player A will get more home runs because he comes to the plate more and will seem like the better home run hitter when in fact he just comes to the plate more (for whatever reason).

[El Ridda]

http://deadspin.com/381980/you-know-its-baseball-season-when-fat-yanks+red-sox-fans-are-killing-each-other

 

 

 

But clearly the cubs have the most obnoxious fans, and such despicable fan behavior is the reason that the two teams involved never have any success, because everyone knows that the Yankees and Red Sox never win.

[bcl412]

In my opinion, the thing that bothers me is people like Marty Brennaman's inability to remember that there is a big difference between "Cubs fans" and the people who show up at Wrigley Field and sit in the bleachers.. Instead of saying "Cubs fans are the most obnoxious...." He should say,"The general public that shows up at Wrigley Field for night and Saturday games...." I'd be willing to bet(as others have posted before) that Wrigley contains the largest number of "tourists" or people not even from Chicago of any park in the country with the possible exception of Fenway, and I'd doubt that even Fenway is close.

 

For the record, "Cubs fans" are the 5,000-10,000 or so people you'll find for any Cubs series in places like Colorado, or Cincinnati or Atlanta, or wherever. I'll never forget Turner Field in '03, when Game 5 of the NLDS was pretty much turned into a home game.

 

The bolded is an excellent point, though I think you could just say "the general public that shows up at Wrigley for virtually any game".

 

The thing that Hornbuckle missed out on is that when saying "Cubs fans" you have to remember that because of WGN, the Cubs have a huge and widespread fanbase so when using the term "Cubs fans" you are talking about all of them. And yet, a high number of Cubs fans, myself included, rarely or never get a chance to go to a Cubs game at Wrigley and yet when Marty Brennaman says that all Cubs fans act a certain way, he is including ALL Cubs fans with that statement. By looking at only the Cubs fans who a) go to Cubs games and b) sit in the bleachers, you're really narrowing your sample size of Cubs fans and to extrapolate that to all Cubs fans is not only wrong but stupid as well.

 

The Cubs also have a larger fan base than most of the teams in the majors and with that comes a larger number of idiots. But yet, in the end, the percentage of Cubs fans who are idiots are going to be about the same as the average in the majors. Every team does have stupid fans but because those teams have less fans, they have less idiots. To put it in a baseball way, Player A and Player B both average one home run every 10 AB's but Player A gets 600 AB's while Player B only gets 200. Player A will get more home runs because he comes to the plate more and will seem like the better home run hitter when in fact he just comes to the plate more (for whatever reason).

 

Basically the mistake he makes is something some people do, people make the mistake of generalizing a whole group of people when they are angry and trying to make a point. In generalizing their perspective to a whole group of people they are usually wrong and ignorant.(I hope I wrote this correctly, otherwise there is a lot of irony in what I am writing). Marty made that mistake. I don't blame him for doing it, I've done it before (I've said All White Sox fans are trash and hate the Cubs for no reason), but he should be held accountable for it because you are unfairly portraying people who don't fit into your stereotype. I am sure that if I said that all old baseball announcer are uninformed, ignorant idiots he would be upset too.

[FergieJ31]

I can’t take it anymore, between you guys and the callers on sports radio I have to vent.

 

If I hear one more person point out that “EVERY TEAM HAS IT’S DRUNK FANS! Blah, blah, blah.”

 

Yeah. We get it. And it’s true, but that’s not the point… you know what? Every team also has guys that’s hit a home run. That doesn’t mean that every team has a HR hitting line-up.

 

The point is that you find MORE drunk idiots at Wrigley field than you do at most ballparks. It’s about percentages, and probability. You think with as many stat-heads as there are on this site that you would get that. With the proper sample size, I’m sure you’ll find that there are MORE. No stadium is void of drunk morons. They DO all have them. But it’s not fair to go to one game in say, Cleveland, and see one drunk moron and determine that the bleachers there are as bad as Wrigley’s. There’s a higher percentage of drunk meat-heads at Wrigley and you’re more probable to run into them, and I always do.

Surely you have data to back this opinion up?

 

How on earth could he have data on this? Do they have a "drunk and idiot fans in attendance" stat somewhere on baseball-reference.com? C'mon.

And that's the point. Wrigley is no better or worse than any other ball park that has a large attendance in my opinion (or most that have a small one).

 

If one doesn't like drunk idiots, the best option is to stay away from places that drunk idiots populate. To state in unequivocal terms that Wrigley is terrible compared to other ballparks is pretty asinine.

 

Fixed - otherwise you're guilty of the same thing Hornbuckle is.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate where you're coming from. It shows good discipline to be able to run a few numbers to check and recheck ones assumptions and biases. But the "do you have the numbers to backup your opinion" thing gets a little absurd and out of the control here sometimes. And this coming from a stat-head -- I spend half my day in front of Excel.

 

For what it's worth, I don't entirely agree with Hornbuckle's post and I wouldn't have phrased it as he did, but there is more than a grain of truth to it. I've been going to Wrigley Field for over 25 years and the past 5 years have been the worst I've seen in terms of "fan" behavior (most of the idiots are not fans, of course). By far. That naturally goes hand-in-hand with increased attendance and increased expectations, so I personally don't complain too much. I still enjoy the ballpark experience ... but to deny entirely what he said is ignorant.

[MustangMike]

Not sure what anything said during that isn't true.

 

Throwing 15 balls on the field? [expletive].

Throwing back a ground rule double? Stupid.

Throwing trash on the field? Acting like drunk idiots.

 

There are people out there who are good, solid Cubs baseball fans. I am sure the majority of the people who post here are like that. However the majority of people at Wrigley Field everyday are drunk college kids or tourists that really could care less about the game.

 

Marty was right on.

 

The rant was unprofessional at the very least. Sport casters are suppose to be unbiased, and to say such things in a rant like that is wrong to me. I don't disagree that throwing balls on the field is wrong, dumping a beer is wrong, i think its awful and needs to be punished at the game quickly and serverly.

I was at the game yesterday, and for the vast majority of the people I saw around me, everyon was watching the game and enjoying the day. The bleachers are rowdy, and there are bad apples, but I really didn't see anything different at the cubs game than I did at the sox game the week before. Kids being kids...and if its out of control, then security needs to step up. You can define a fan base by a few people's actions.

 

You also can tie together a fan base and the teams success, they have nothing to do with one another, that was a stupid comment.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Sport casters are suppose to be unbiased,

 

I don't think they are considered, nor should they be considered, journalists. They are entertainment.

[bcl412]

Sport casters are suppose to be unbiased,

 

I don't think they are considered, nor should they be considered, journalists. They are entertainment.

 

I agree. The only reason that national sportscasters are a little more biased is because they don't want to alienate certain viewers. I think the ones that have a little bias to them do so because it gets the people who hate them to watch merely because they hate them.

[chuckywang]

Sport casters are suppose to be unbiased,

 

I don't think they are considered, nor should they be considered, journalists. They are entertainment.

 

To be fair, sportscasters for specific teams aren't supposed to be unbiased. They are supposed to cheer on the team they cover all season. However, there is a difference between that and what Marty did. It was definitely unprofessional.

[Dirt Dog Sparly]

It boils down to the Cubs fans were ok in the days of the Big Red Machine and the Nasty Boys when they were door mats. Now that the shoe is on the other foot Cubs fans are "insert derogatory comment caused by being used as a door mat comment here."

 

If this team keeps it up you will hear lots more of it.

[snoodmonger]

http://deadspin.com/381980/you-know-its-baseball-season-when-fat-yanks+red-sox-fans-are-killing-each-other

 

 

 

But clearly the cubs have the most obnoxious fans, and such despicable fan behavior is the reason that the two teams involved never have any success, because everyone knows that the Yankees and Red Sox never win.

 

 

Maybe I watched too much wrestling as a kid, but it seems like having folding chairs at an event like that is a terrible idea.

[MustangMike]

Sport casters are suppose to be unbiased,

 

I don't think they are considered, nor should they be considered, journalists. They are entertainment.

 

 

I didn't say he was a journalist, i believe the announcer should try to be as unbiased as possible. I realize an announcer that follows a team day in and day out have the biases, but its their job to try to avoid that. Not only did Mary miss that boat, he went as far to insult an entire fan base and tie the fan base to the organizational problems. You'd think cub fans would get some credit for being die hard for a team that doesn't win.

[imb]

Sport casters are suppose to be unbiased,

 

I don't think they are considered, nor should they be considered, journalists. They are entertainment.

 

 

I didn't say he was a journalist, i believe the announcer should try to be as unbiased as possible. I realize an announcer that follows a team day in and day out have the biases, but its their job to try to avoid that. Not only did Mary miss that boat, he went as far to insult an entire fan base and tie the fan base to the organizational problems. You'd think cub fans would get some credit for being die hard for a team that doesn't win.

 

Home team announcers aren't supposed to be unbiased.

[Hornbuckle]

The point is that you find MORE drunk idiots at Wrigley field than you do at most ballparks. It’s about percentages, and probability. You think with as many stat-heads as there are on this site that you would get that.

 

Not going to take a "shot" at you, but I'm wondering who exactly you are talking to. For the most part I've heard people saying pretty much the exact same thing here. Wrigley HAS more fans, therefore there are more idiots. So I'm confused what is making you so upset.

 

And regardless of whether there are drunken idiots at Wrigley field, for a team's main broadcaster to flip out the way Marty did, and then the next day lay into his own color man, is both unseemly and unprofessional. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, as they say.

 

I'm "talking" to all of those who want to make excuses for the behavior of the cubs fan base at Wrigley. For instance, I see "Wrigley HAS more fans, therefore there are more idiots" and I disagree. Yes, the Cubs have more fans, which equals more idiots, but from my experience it's pretty clear (no I don't have data) that when you go to a sold out game at Wrigley vs. a sold out game somewhere else there are a hell of a lot more idiots at Wrigley.

 

My math shows that not only are there more (like you said), but there is a greater percentage of the fan base that are disrespectful, unknowledgeable, and there for the party, not for the baseball.

 

And before I go on, please spare me the "generalization" speech. I'm not going to qualify every statement with "many, not all" or "I know that not all cubs fans are drunks" or "other teams have them too" or my posts will be more annoyingly long than they already are. Do we really need to get into the semantics?

[imb]

my math (i dont have any data) says

[Hornbuckle]

The point is that you find MORE drunk idiots at Wrigley field than you do at most ballparks. It’s about percentages, and probability. You think with as many stat-heads as there are on this site that you would get that.

 

Not going to take a "shot" at you, but I'm wondering who exactly you are talking to. For the most part I've heard people saying pretty much the exact same thing here. Wrigley HAS more fans, therefore there are more idiots. So I'm confused what is making you so upset.

 

And regardless of whether there are drunken idiots at Wrigley field, for a team's main broadcaster to flip out the way Marty did, and then the next day lay into his own color man, is both unseemly and unprofessional. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, as they say.

 

 

I think it is more than Wrigley having MORE fans, thus more idiots. Rather, Wrigley has a younger fan base than most due to its location, and a drunker fan base than most, also due to its location (bars everywhere). All of these factors lead to the crazy atmosphere that is Wrigley. While this probably leads to a few more 'incidents' than you see at other parks, it also leads to the unrivaled electricity in the ball-park everyday. In the end, you take the good with the bad. Is the amazing energy in Wrigley worth a few very minor incidents a year?

 

I think the answer to that Q is a no-brainer. What fun would sports be if ever stadium was similar and boring, even if they are less prone to see balls being thrown onto the field or other such 'obnoxious' acts.

 

I'd say that you have a fair point to a certain extent. There is an added buzz to the Wrigley experience and atmophere, which for the most part, I love. And I agree, sometimes you have to take the bad with the good. However, there is an obnoxious element to it, and those who want to ignore that the obnoxious element is a blemish on the cubs fan base are kidding themselves. So if you're going to take the bad with the good, you better be willing to acknowledge not expect to get the critisism or be able to just brush it off as invalid.

[fibro]

It seems to me the problem is at Wrigley all the idiots gravitate to one area the bleachers where at parks it is not so conscentrated. Edited April 21, 2008 by fibro

[Hornbuckle]

I can’t take it anymore, between you guys and the callers on sports radio I have to vent.

 

If I hear one more person point out that “EVERY TEAM HAS IT’S DRUNK FANS! Blah, blah, blah.”

 

Yeah. We get it. And it’s true, but that’s not the point… you know what? Every team also has guys that’s hit a home run. That doesn’t mean that every team has a HR hitting line-up.

 

The point is that you find MORE drunk idiots at Wrigley field than you do at most ballparks. It’s about percentages, and probability. You think with as many stat-heads as there are on this site that you would get that. With the proper sample size, I’m sure you’ll find that there are MORE. No stadium is void of drunk morons. They DO all have them. But it’s not fair to go to one game in say, Cleveland, and see one drunk moron and determine that the bleachers there are as bad as Wrigley’s. There’s a higher percentage of drunk meat-heads at Wrigley and you’re more probable to run into them, and I always do.

Surely you have data to back this opinion up?

 

How on earth could he have data on this? Do they have a "drunk and idiot fans in attendance" stat somewhere on baseball-reference.com? C'mon.

And that's the point. Wrigley is no better or worse than any other ball park that has a large attendance (or most that have a small one).

 

If one doesn't like drunk idiots, the best option is to stay away from places that drunk idiots populate. To state in unequivocal terms that Wrigley is terrible compared to other ballparks is pretty asinine.

 

I never said it was "terrible." In fact, if you read my post, I believe I said that I love going there.

 

People can continue to point out that I don't have stats, but I know what my experiences at ballparks around the country have been like, and at the same time, no one has any stats to refute those experiences.

 

Yes - this is my opinion.

[Hornbuckle]

It seems to me the problem is at Wrigley all the idiots gravitate to one area the bleachers where at parks it is not so consitrated.

 

Good point.

[Rob]

I'm "talking" to all of those who want to make excuses for the behavior of the cubs fan base at Wrigley. For instance, I see "Wrigley HAS more fans, therefore there are more idiots" and I disagree. Yes, the Cubs have more fans, which equals more idiots, but from my experience it's pretty clear (no I don't have data) that when you go to a sold out game at Wrigley vs. a sold out game somewhere else there are a hell of a lot more idiots at Wrigley.

 

My math shows that not only are there more (like you said), but there is a greater percentage of the fan base that are disrespectful, unknowledgeable, and there for the party, not for the baseball.

 

And before I go on, please spare me the "generalization" speech. I'm not going to qualify every statement with "many, not all" or "I know that not all cubs fans are drunks" or "other teams have them too" or my posts will be more annoyingly long than they already are. Do we really need to get into the semantics?

 

Neat debate tactic you've got there. Mind if I try using it against you?

 

...ahem

 

"My experiences say the exact opposite of the crap you're espousing. And, since I have no need of any data to back up my claim, don't even bother trying to contradict me."

[Hornbuckle]

 

Thanks for your time and of course you’ll disagree and take your shots at me, however I’m sure I’ll never be allowed rebut, or for that matter, ever be allowed to post here again. Oh well.

 

Careful getting down from that cross.

 

It doesn't sound like you're an unbiased source here. I can't dispute what you said, because it's all a person's opinion. You wouldn't expect Cubs fans to have an accurate opinion of White Sox fans would you?

 

And, I'll usually be the last person to back up some of the tools at Cubs games.(See my rant titled the 4 people you meet at Cubs games.) The throwing all the balls on the field was stupid. Throwing trash on the field in the past was stupid. But this type of obnoxious tool behavior DOES happen everywhere. And at a pretty similar ratio. As CubinNY alluded to, you can't claim that us who rely on stats so heavily in baseball should be able to realize the ratio is greater, and then use your anecdotal evidence to prove it.

 

It's flat out an opinion, and there's no way to prove it. Brennamen's biased, he's a Reds announcer and a senile old coot. We're biased, we're Cubs fans. You're biased, you're a Sox fan(I think) Oh well.

 

First of all, is it that far fetched to think that I might be banned after my first post? I appreciate not getting banned (thanks) but it doesn't seem to take much to get the "troll" label and threatened with banning.

 

And FTR, no, I'm not a Sox fan, and I'm not a Reds fan. I chose not to mention what team I am a fan of because just as with Brennaman rant (which WAS UNPROFESSIONAL) many who choose to disagree wil come up with some reason (like Marty being bitter) as a crutch to ignore any of the points made.

 

I can't be at every game in every park seeing every delay and tallying them. All I have is my broad experience going to games. That experience has given me all the information that I need to make the points that I've made.

[Hornbuckle]

I'm "talking" to all of those who want to make excuses for the behavior of the cubs fan base at Wrigley. For instance, I see "Wrigley HAS more fans, therefore there are more idiots" and I disagree. Yes, the Cubs have more fans, which equals more idiots, but from my experience it's pretty clear (no I don't have data) that when you go to a sold out game at Wrigley vs. a sold out game somewhere else there are a hell of a lot more idiots at Wrigley.

 

My math shows that not only are there more (like you said), but there is a greater percentage of the fan base that are disrespectful, unknowledgeable, and there for the party, not for the baseball.

 

And before I go on, please spare me the "generalization" speech. I'm not going to qualify every statement with "many, not all" or "I know that not all cubs fans are drunks" or "other teams have them too" or my posts will be more annoyingly long than they already are. Do we really need to get into the semantics?

 

Neat debate tactic you've got there. Mind if I try using it against you?

 

...ahem

 

"My experiences say the exact opposite of the crap you're espousing. And, since I have no need of any data to back up my claim, don't even bother trying to contradict me."

 

Not sure what to tell you. If you want to start documenting the incidents, be my guest. It's not a tactic - it's all I've got. Apparently, I'm not the only one noticing these things, am I? FergieJ31 pointed out that he's been going to games for 25 years and that he's noticed more incidents in the past 5 years by far. Care to call his point crap as well?