Rich Hill on thin Ice?

[bring stone back]

Wow, I didn't realize I was thought of so highly in the psychological business. Hill and the organization have both stated that often he "gets in his own way" and does far too much thinking on the mound and even he stated he is his own worst enemy out there. Considering I have actually worked with sports psychologists I think this would be something to explore with Hill.

 

Love the, "before he kills again" comment. I can really appreciate the hyperbole and putting words in one's mouth so you can add more validity to your argument. Well played, sir...

 

Let Lieber take his spot the next 2-3 starts while Hill can gain back some confidence in long/middle relief and figure out his mechanical/confidence issues in the bullpen. What is so damn difficult to figure out? The organization gives Hill and opportunity to right himself AND imporove in the short term. Oh, the humanity...

Comments like "gets in his own way" or "he is his own worst enemy" are used to describe just about every good pitcher who is going through command issues. They don't actually mean anything other than walks are doing more damage than the opposing hitters.

 

When they deal with confidence and head issues, as acknowledged by Hill and the organization numerous times, it is much more than that.

[bring stone back]

And Lieber fans: he isn't that good anymore. Sorry to burst your bubble, but a few good innings doesn't change the fact that he is fairly mediocre at the very best.

 

He is good right now. Maybe that changes in his next appearance or 10 appearances from now, but right now he is. I say keep putting him out there in positions to succeed while buying time for Hill to straighten himself out.

 

This could be a very good thing. None of us know so let's let it play out.

[Rob]

None of us know so let's let it play out.

 

You're right. The problem is that we know the probabilities involved, and Lou is playing against the odds.

 

If it works, great... but that doesn't make the decision any smarter.

[bring stone back]

The irony of calling out Lou Piniella for knee jerk reactions within the course of this thread is overwhelming.

 

No, it's really not, because our kneejerk reactions don't stupidly make the team worse.

 

Knee jerk reactions like replacing a center fielder who was so overmatched at the plate at times it was comical for a player outproducing him?

 

Those like giving a starting pitcher, who has been brutal since day one of Spring, some extended bullpen work so he can straighten himself out and actually help the team instead of hurt it?

 

The Cubs will be battling a team that in my opinon are better than them in the Brewers all year long for the Central. The Cubs have no room for error here.

 

For a fanbase who cries so much about 100 years of misery and we need to win know I'm amazed at how upset people get when a manager makes decisions to try to achieve that.

[bring stone back]

None of us know so let's let it play out.

 

You're right. The problem is that we know the probabilities involved, and Lou is playing against the odds.

 

If it works, great... but that doesn't make the decision any smarter.

 

I didn't realize there were odds on giving a starter a few extended bullpen sessions so he can try to straighten himself out. If there are, each starter is different so I wouldn't say he is or isn't "beating the odds" here.

 

What I do know is that Hill has a lot of talent and upside but has been terrible since Spring and right now he's hurting the team. The Cubs are taking a calculated risk that they can take this situation they're currently in and try to improve it.

 

What is the absolute worst thing that can happen - Hill is inserted back into the rotation in a couple weeks and loses his control again and gets shelled? I just saw that movie...

[Jon]

Comments like "gets in his own way" or "he is his own worst enemy" are used to describe just about every good pitcher who is going through command issues. They don't actually mean anything other than walks are doing more damage than the opposing hitters.

 

When they deal with confidence and head issues, as acknowledged by Hill and the organization numerous times, it is much more than that.

That "issue" just took off. The Cubs made some comments and everyone picked up on it and wouldn't let it go, so they interviewed Hill about it a bunch of times. What was he supposed to say? There was even talk about a book that Rothschild supposedly gave to Hill on sports psychology to help him out, which helped. The only problem was that Hill had that book for several years.

 

Saying that he has "head issues" is just absurd, whether it comes from the Cubs, media, or on a message board.

[abuck1220]

And Lieber fans: he isn't that good anymore. Sorry to burst your bubble, but a few good innings doesn't change the fact that he is fairly mediocre at the very best.

 

He is good right now. Maybe that changes in his next appearance or 10 appearances from now, but right now he is. I say keep putting him out there in positions to succeed while buying time for Hill to straighten himself out.

 

you can't make roster decisions based on one start, ten at-bats or whatever. hill out, lieber in...what if lieber sucks twice? back to hill? what if lilly, who has sucked all spring, sucks again tonight? lilly out, marshall in? then what if marshall struggles? you advocate doing what is "good right now," and that's fine in fantasy baseball or whatever, but it's not practical in real life. it's easy to say, well lieber's pitched five good innings, hill had three bad innings, let's switch them up...but it's an unsustainable strategy over the course of 162 games. you can play the hot hand in a platoon situation, but you can't do it everywhere, and doing it to arguably your second best starting pitcher is beyond stupid.

[WilcoFan]

you can't make roster decisions based on one start, ten at-bats or whatever. hill out, lieber in...what if lieber sucks twice? back to hill? what if lilly, who has sucked all spring, sucks again tonight? lilly out, marshall in? then what if marshall struggles? you advocate doing what is "good right now," and that's fine in fantasy baseball or whatever, but it's not practical in real life. it's easy to say, well lieber's pitched five good innings, hill had three bad innings, let's switch them up...but it's an unsustainable strategy over the course of 162 games. you can play the hot hand in a platoon situation, but you can't do it everywhere, and doing it to arguably your second best starting pitcher is beyond stupid.

 

This is based on a pattern of wildness throughout Spring Training and into the regular season. The assumption on the part of the coaching staff is that it is a mechanical problem that requires extra side sessions that will push back his next start to next Thursday. No one knows anything beyond that. This isn't about "playing the hot hand." It is about getting arguably the 2nd best pitcher on the staff to regain the mechanics that make him the 2nd best starting pitcher. Given that the coaching staff is around him 8 hours per day and watch not only his starts, but also his side sessions, if they feel like they can correct his mechanical issues with side sessions and a couple of no-stress relief outings (which could potentially give much-needed relief to a bullpen that has been taxed lately AND get Hill the innings he missed out on in his short start this week), then they, at the very least, have a significant amount of data from which to base their decision. Based upon sheer amount of evidence, their decision is far from "stupid."

 

If it goes beyond a week and actually turns into some sort of benching, then this is a stupid move and should be condemned. If they work with him, he improves his mechanics, and starts next weekend and doesn't possess the same control problems, then it will have been an effective strategy, and all the hand-wringing that has gone on will be for naught. I, for one, am willing to give Marshall a single start if it means Hill will figure out the mechanical issues that have been plaguing him this year and return to being the 2nd best pitcher on this staff.

[abuck1220]

you can't make roster decisions based on one start, ten at-bats or whatever. hill out, lieber in...what if lieber sucks twice? back to hill? what if lilly, who has sucked all spring, sucks again tonight? lilly out, marshall in? then what if marshall struggles? you advocate doing what is "good right now," and that's fine in fantasy baseball or whatever, but it's not practical in real life. it's easy to say, well lieber's pitched five good innings, hill had three bad innings, let's switch them up...but it's an unsustainable strategy over the course of 162 games. you can play the hot hand in a platoon situation, but you can't do it everywhere, and doing it to arguably your second best starting pitcher is beyond stupid.

 

This is based on a pattern of wildness throughout Spring Training and into the regular season. The assumption on the part of the coaching staff is that it is a mechanical problem that requires extra side sessions that will push back his next start to next Thursday. No one knows anything beyond that. This isn't about "playing the hot hand." It is about getting arguably the 2nd best pitcher on the staff to regain the mechanics that make him the 2nd best starting pitcher. Given that the coaching staff is around him 8 hours per day and watch not only his starts, but also his side sessions, if they feel like they can correct his mechanical issues with side sessions and a couple of no-stress relief outings (which could potentially give much-needed relief to a bullpen that has been taxed lately AND get Hill the innings he missed out on in his short start this week), then they, at the very least, have a significant amount of data from which to base their decision. Based upon sheer amount of evidence, their decision is far from "stupid."

 

so because they're around him a lot, they know what's best? i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

If it goes beyond a week and actually turns into some sort of benching, then this is a stupid move and should be condemned. If they work with him, he improves his mechanics, and starts next weekend and doesn't possess the same control problems, then it will have been an effective strategy, and all the hand-wringing that has gone on will be for naught. I, for one, am willing to give Marshall a single start if it means Hill will figure out the mechanical issues that have been plaguing him this year and return to being the 2nd best pitcher on this staff.

 

i don't understand why he has to miss a start for him to work on mechanics.

[bring stone back]

Comments like "gets in his own way" or "he is his own worst enemy" are used to describe just about every good pitcher who is going through command issues. They don't actually mean anything other than walks are doing more damage than the opposing hitters.

 

When they deal with confidence and head issues, as acknowledged by Hill and the organization numerous times, it is much more than that.

That "issue" just took off. The Cubs made some comments and everyone picked up on it and wouldn't let it go, so they interviewed Hill about it a bunch of times. What was he supposed to say? There was even talk about a book that Rothschild supposedly gave to Hill on sports psychology to help him out, which helped. The only problem was that Hill had that book for several years.

 

Saying that he has "head issues" is just absurd, whether it comes from the Cubs, media, or on a message board.

 

And you would know this how - your extensive dealings with Rich Hill? Fact is the organization has mentioned numerous times, as has Hill. I highly doubt the organization and Hill would acknowledge confidence and head issues if there wasn't some substance to it.

 

In regards to "what was he supposed to say" - if someone asked him about a lack of confidence or "head" issues and they weren't real I'm guessing Hill would reply with something like, "there is nothing to that, period." He didn't.

[bring stone back]

you can't make roster decisions based on one start, ten at-bats or whatever. hill out, lieber in...what if lieber sucks twice? back to hill? what if lilly, who has sucked all spring, sucks again tonight? lilly out, marshall in? then what if marshall struggles? you advocate doing what is "good right now," and that's fine in fantasy baseball or whatever, but it's not practical in real life. it's easy to say, well lieber's pitched five good innings, hill had three bad innings, let's switch them up...but it's an unsustainable strategy over the course of 162 games. you can play the hot hand in a platoon situation, but you can't do it everywhere, and doing it to arguably your second best starting pitcher is beyond stupid.

 

This is based on a pattern of wildness throughout Spring Training and into the regular season. The assumption on the part of the coaching staff is that it is a mechanical problem that requires extra side sessions that will push back his next start to next Thursday. No one knows anything beyond that. This isn't about "playing the hot hand." It is about getting arguably the 2nd best pitcher on the staff to regain the mechanics that make him the 2nd best starting pitcher. Given that the coaching staff is around him 8 hours per day and watch not only his starts, but also his side sessions, if they feel like they can correct his mechanical issues with side sessions and a couple of no-stress relief outings (which could potentially give much-needed relief to a bullpen that has been taxed lately AND get Hill the innings he missed out on in his short start this week), then they, at the very least, have a significant amount of data from which to base their decision. Based upon sheer amount of evidence, their decision is far from "stupid."

 

If it goes beyond a week and actually turns into some sort of benching, then this is a stupid move and should be condemned. If they work with him, he improves his mechanics, and starts next weekend and doesn't possess the same control problems, then it will have been an effective strategy, and all the hand-wringing that has gone on will be for naught. I, for one, am willing to give Marshall a single start if it means Hill will figure out the mechanical issues that have been plaguing him this year and return to being the 2nd best pitcher on this staff.

 

well said.

[badger1679666666]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

[anabiono]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

 

right on brotha!!

[TruffleShuffle]

if rich hill is going to the bullpen, then ted lilly should be on the next bus to des moines.

[Jon]

And you would know this how - your extensive dealings with Rich Hill? Fact is the organization has mentioned numerous times, as has Hill. I highly doubt the organization and Hill would acknowledge confidence and head issues if there wasn't some substance to it.

 

In regards to "what was he supposed to say" - if someone asked him about a lack of confidence or "head" issues and they weren't real I'm guessing Hill would reply with something like, "there is nothing to that, period." He didn't.

You're the one accusing him of having head problems and you want me to find proof that he doesn't? The talk of Hill's confidence, not "head issues," came before his major league success and yet you're contending that his mental issues are a reason why he struggled in one game over a season later?

 

Rothschild needed something to help explain why Hill was struggling in the majors but not in AAA. A certain minor league pitching coach would disagree with Rothschild's explanation.

 

But let's go straight to the source:

Rich Hill on 9/18/06[/url]"]I struggled mightily in May with the Cubs, and when I returned to the Minors, I just worked on attacking the hitters [note: That's strategy, not a head issue]. My goal was to throw every pitch the way I want it to come out of my hand, throw it with conviction, without holding back. Now, I'm able to go out there and throw my game and really concentrate on attacking the hitter.

 

A lot of my early struggles with the Cubs the past two seasons have had to do with my personal lack of success. Usually, there's a correlation between success and confidence [note: There sure is and there's nothing to suggest that the mental aspect can build confidence without success. It's much more likely that confidence grows WITH success]. But I didn't have success early on, so my confidence was low and I wasn't preparing myself for games as well as I could. Now, I'm much more detail-oriented in my preparation.

 

I don't think my problems early in the year had to do with nerves. Everybody gets nervous before a big game. If you don't, I think you need to find out whether you want to play or not. But there wasn't an intimidation factor. I knew I had the stuff to be here and was good enough to be here.

 

This time around, I'm more in tune mechanically, more confident in my pitches and my pitch selection [note: Again, these are normal pitching issues]. I feel like I can throw any pitch in any count and I approach it that way.

I'd feel confident if I got major leaguers out, too. I'd also lack confidence if I couldn't. That doesn't mean my struggles were due to mental issues or that my success can be credited to mental strength.

[Keener98]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

 

You know what gets more tiresome? People posting on NSBB, bitching about NSBB, and its posters.

[UK1679666180]

He'll have enough time with Rothschild & his side-session to hopefully help get his timing back with his delivery, if he struggles, it's an intersting question. I do think with his struggles right now that Lieber should be held back for Hill's next start. If he has a good side-session and fixes whatever flaws are there, he should start and hopefully get everything in line.

 

Once you start dealing with that shoulder tilt, which adds deception, but it also has to nearly perfect for him to get the right release point.

[WilcoFan]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

 

You know what gets more tiresome? People posting on NSBB, bitching about NSBB, and its posters.

 

Even more tiresome is people complaining about people complaining about other posters.

 

 

 

 

And round and round we go!

[Keener98]

Yea you basically said the same thing.

[Jon]

Abuck said that the Cubs' coaching staffs don't always know what is best.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone would disagree with him.

[abuck1220]

how can the coaches even look hill in the face after demoting him for one bad start when lilly has been out there throwing batting practice for three straight starts. those are the problems that arise when you make rash decisions based on a small sample.

 

but hey, the cubs know what they're doing. they've got the world series rings to prove it, so far be it from me to doubt them.

[NCCubFan]

People act like this is the only stupid decision the Cubs have made and everything will work itself out. This is a team starting Marquis over better options like Lieber, Marshall, and now Hill. This is a team who allowed their top prospect a grand total of 4 starts before allowing him 1 start for the next 8 games, and pulling him in a 3rd inning double switch in that 1 start. This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option. This is a team that demoted a very effective Marshall for the pennant race experienced, Steve F Trachsel. This is a team that values the ABs of guys like Craig Monroe and Mike Fontenot over Matt Murton. And this is just under Lou. The organization as a whole has a history of completely screwing up its young players and then wondering why they never develop or have to be traded for mediocre stopgaps.

And you haven't even touched Pie yet.

Actually he did mention Pie. See bolded part of his post.

[RedFlash]

This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option.

 

To give Lou a little credit, NOT ALOT MIND YOU, but a little, once he did see Soto was the better player, he played Soto more. Plain and simple.

 

Maybe Piniella wants Pie to show him he is better then Johnson, and Pie hasn't be up for the challenge. Now I understand the lack of playing, I really do, but there is more the "rising to the challenge" then what is on the field. Pie has to show he can play, so maybe the Cubs see something Pie they don't like, and are trying to correct the problem. Same goes with Hill.

[SouthSideRyan]

This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option.

 

To give Lou a little credit, NOT ALOT MIND YOU, but a little, once he did see Soto was the better player, he played Soto more. Plain and simple.

 

Maybe Piniella wants Pie to show him he is better then Johnson, and Pie hasn't be up for the challenge. Now I understand the lack of playing, I really do, but there is more the "rising to the challenge" then what is on the field. Pie has to show he can play, so maybe the Cubs see something Pie they don't like, and are trying to correct the problem. Same goes with Hill.

 

I'd love to ask him why Jason effing Kendall started Game 3 last year.

[RedFlash]

This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option.

 

To give Lou a little credit, NOT ALOT MIND YOU, but a little, once he did see Soto was the better player, he played Soto more. Plain and simple.

 

Maybe Piniella wants Pie to show him he is better then Johnson, and Pie hasn't be up for the challenge. Now I understand the lack of playing, I really do, but there is more the "rising to the challenge" then what is on the field. Pie has to show he can play, so maybe the Cubs see something Pie they don't like, and are trying to correct the problem. Same goes with Hill.

 

I'd love to ask him why Jason effing Kendall started Game 3 last year.

 

Or why he pull Z an inning to soon in Game 1?