Felix Pie

[illiniguy]

It'd certainly be nice if the Cubs would give Pie this whole season to adjust, but it ain't gonna happen. Hendry needs to win now or he's unemployed this fall. I guarantee you he'll make a move if Pie still looks bad in late May. Juan Pierre will probably still be available.

Kenny Lofton. Please god don't bring back Juan Pierre.

[SouthSideRyan]

It'd certainly be nice if the Cubs would give Pie this whole season to adjust, but it ain't gonna happen. Hendry needs to win now or he's unemployed this fall. I guarantee you he'll make a move if Pie still looks bad in late May. Juan Pierre will probably still be available.

Kenny Lofton. Please god don't bring back Juan Pierre.

 

Please God don't bring back Kenny Lofton. Quit dicking around with prospects for half a season then burying them.

[imb]

cedeno had one full year of play at age 23; aramis' poor performances came at age 20 and 22.

 

That's out there.

 

aramis' had a poor season when he was a full 365 days younger than cedeno. time to write ronny off

 

aramis also cut his strikeout rate in half from his age 20 big league debut, and had a .700 OPS, not .610.

 

i cant tell if you really don't think Cedeno could ever possibly be a decent option or if you just are sticking with an irrational point for the hell of it

 

i like how it's an irrational point yet there have been very few examples provided of guys who completely sucked for a whole year at age 23 and turned into better than better than average big league players. it's also fun to bash points as being "irrational" without providing much evidence to support this. i don't think i'm the only person on this board who thinks cedeno will not be a good option, and i don't think that most of the people who are anti-cedeno feel that way because we are in love with ryan theriot's grit and hard work.

 

Saying that you don't think that Cedeno will ever be average or above average or whatever isn't irrational. But saying that he will never be good and then using faulty examples is irrational.

 

All he has to do to is be a better option than Ryan Theriot. That's it. And saying, "well look how good Jose Reyes was when he was 23" doesn't do anything to prove that he can't be a better option than Theriot.

 

That being said, I don't care one way or the other whether or not it's Cedeno or Theriot in the starting lineup. I just have a problem with people claiming absolutes when they have no clue what they're talking about.

[illiniguy]

It'd certainly be nice if the Cubs would give Pie this whole season to adjust, but it ain't gonna happen. Hendry needs to win now or he's unemployed this fall. I guarantee you he'll make a move if Pie still looks bad in late May. Juan Pierre will probably still be available.

Kenny Lofton. Please god don't bring back Juan Pierre.

 

Please God don't bring back Kenny Lofton. Quit dicking around with prospects for half a season then burying them.

Oh I agree. I don't think there is any need for either guy, but as people said Hendry is going to panic. It's what he does. I would rather give away money than get fleeced for more young players for Juan Pierre.

[TruffleShuffle]

Saying that you don't think that Cedeno will ever be average or above average or whatever isn't irrational. But saying that he will never be good and then using faulty examples is irrational.

 

well the alternative is to say "i don't think cedeno will be average or above average, and i think he won't be as good as theriot either" and then be met with the predictable response of "PECOTA has ronny at ... and theriot at ..., therefore ronny should be in the lineup." so i actually try to back my opinion up with some evidence.

 

 

That being said, I don't care one way or the other whether or not it's Cedeno or Theriot in the starting lineup. I just have a problem with people claiming absolutes when they have no clue what they're talking about.

 

if you'd pay attention to anything that i wrote, you'd note that i have not said that i am positive that ronny cedeno will absolutely not be a terrible player. it's my opinion that he will be. i hope i'm wrong and if theriot gets hurt or is completely useless (sub-.300 obp, for example), i hope that cedeno steps in and plays good baseball. but theriot, while a bad player in his own right, is at least not a complete black hole in the lineup, which cedeno was. theriot was about 1.5 wins better in 2007 than cedeno was in 2006, and at this point i would rather go with the known quantity of theriot than risk having cedeno be completely worthless.

[sharkfan50]

The most discouraging thing about Pie looking absolutely cluseless at the plate, is he's doing it against Righties and with the exception of Sheets, I wouldn't call any of these Pitchers he has faced as top tier pitchers in this league.

 

It has only been 4 games but when I see him at the plate, I see a player who still has a long swing and bad plate discipline. That adds up to not good in this league and it might as well be 400 ab's.

[TruffleShuffle]

It'd certainly be nice if the Cubs would give Pie this whole season to adjust, but it ain't gonna happen. Hendry needs to win now or he's unemployed this fall. I guarantee you he'll make a move if Pie still looks bad in late May. Juan Pierre will probably still be available.

 

i'm not sure if i'd blame hendry or piniella for this. remember, piniella is the guy who thought soriano would be a good fit in the 2-hole and then gave up on it after all of two losses. he manages like a guy who thinks the season has as many games as an nfl season. so i'm not so sure that if reed johnson starts playing most of the games, that piniella won't be the driving force behind the switch.

[jersey cubs fan]

there have been very few examples provided of guys who completely sucked for a whole year at age 23 and turned into better than better than average big league players.

 

Better than better than average? So really good? I would kill for average out of SS right now. Cedeno may never get there, but he's got a better chance than anybody affiliated with the Chicago Cubs.

[TruffleShuffle]

It has only been 4 games but when I see him at the plate, I see a player who still has a long swing and bad plate discipline. That adds up to not good in this league

 

yeah and when people saw rich hill with the cubs in 2005 and early 2006, they saw a guy with an average fastball he couldn't locate, and a plus curveball that he couldn't throw for strikes consistently. that adds up to not good in this league.

[TruffleShuffle]

there have been very few examples provided of guys who completely sucked for a whole year at age 23 and turned into better than better than average big league players.

 

Better than better than average? So really good? I would kill for average out of SS right now. Cedeno may never get there, but he's got a better chance than anybody affiliated with the Chicago Cubs.

 

i agree with that, he does have a better chance to be average at SS than anybody affiliated with the chicago cubs.

[rawaction]

If Felix rarely puts the ball in play, then Fukudome and Soto are in the same boat. Pie has struck out 4 times in 13 ABs. Both Soto and Kosuke have 3 Ks in 10 ABs. Pie's K'ing once every 3.25 ABs. The other 2 are once every 3.33 ABs.

[imb]

and at this point i would rather go with the known quantity of theriot than risk having cedeno be completely worthless.

 

I can go along with that. I just think that Theriot is also completely worthless, and if we're looking at a worst case scenario of a 1.5 win difference, I'd like to roll the dice with Cedeno.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Theriot was every bit as bad as 2006 Cedeno last year, with the exception of one month. Let's stop pretending he's a known quantity to even be better than the worst Cedeno could possibly be.

 

 

And this Pie stuff is mind numbing. Pie's shown an ability to adapt to every challenge he's faced as a professional hitter. Give him a chance to do so, especially since he provides amazing CF defense and a LH bat in the lineup. Stop getting mad at him because he looks worse than Theriot does when he fails. He's playing chess while Theriot plays checkers.

[BigbadB]

Theriot was every bit as bad as 2006 Cedeno last year, with the exception of one month. Let's stop pretending he's a known quantity to even be better than the worst Cedeno could possibly be.

 

 

And this Pie stuff is mind numbing. Pie's shown an ability to adapt to every challenge he's faced as a professional hitter. Give him a chance to do so, especially since he provides amazing CF defense and a LH bat in the lineup. Stop getting mad at him because he looks worse than Theriot does when he fails. He's playing chess while Theriot plays checkers.

 

Agreed. I think as the weather warms up, so will Pie and Soriano.

[TruffleShuffle]

Agreed. I think as the weather warms up, so will Pie and Soriano.

 

dusty?

[Chocolate Milk]

Theriot was every bit as bad as 2006 Cedeno last year, with the exception of one month. Let's stop pretending he's a known quantity to even be better than the worst Cedeno could possibly be.

 

 

And this Pie stuff is mind numbing. Pie's shown an ability to adapt to every challenge he's faced as a professional hitter. Give him a chance to do so, especially since he provides amazing CF defense and a LH bat in the lineup. Stop getting mad at him because he looks worse than Theriot does when he fails. He's playing chess while Theriot plays checkers.

This is a pretty great post, TT.

[TruffleShuffle]

Theriot was every bit as bad as 2006 Cedeno last year, with the exception of one month. Let's stop pretending he's a known quantity to even be better than the worst Cedeno could possibly be.

 

 

And this Pie stuff is mind numbing. Pie's shown an ability to adapt to every challenge he's faced as a professional hitter. Give him a chance to do so, especially since he provides amazing CF defense and a LH bat in the lineup. Stop getting mad at him because he looks worse than Theriot does when he fails. He's playing chess while Theriot plays checkers.

This is a pretty great post, TT.

 

except that if you take out any player's best month, his numbers are likely to not look so hot.

[Chocolate Milk]

Theriot was every bit as bad as 2006 Cedeno last year, with the exception of one month. Let's stop pretending he's a known quantity to even be better than the worst Cedeno could possibly be.

 

 

And this Pie stuff is mind numbing. Pie's shown an ability to adapt to every challenge he's faced as a professional hitter. Give him a chance to do so, especially since he provides amazing CF defense and a LH bat in the lineup. Stop getting mad at him because he looks worse than Theriot does when he fails. He's playing chess while Theriot plays checkers.

This is a pretty great post, TT.

 

except that if you take out any player's best month, his numbers are likely to not look so hot.

You didn't get it.

[TruffleShuffle]

Theriot was every bit as bad as 2006 Cedeno last year, with the exception of one month. Let's stop pretending he's a known quantity to even be better than the worst Cedeno could possibly be.

 

 

And this Pie stuff is mind numbing. Pie's shown an ability to adapt to every challenge he's faced as a professional hitter. Give him a chance to do so, especially since he provides amazing CF defense and a LH bat in the lineup. Stop getting mad at him because he looks worse than Theriot does when he fails. He's playing chess while Theriot plays checkers.

This is a pretty great post, TT.

 

except that if you take out any player's best month, his numbers are likely to not look so hot.

You didn't get it.

 

please, enlighten me.

[imb]

Theriot was every bit as bad as 2006 Cedeno last year, with the exception of one month. Let's stop pretending he's a known quantity to even be better than the worst Cedeno could possibly be.

 

 

And this Pie stuff is mind numbing. Pie's shown an ability to adapt to every challenge he's faced as a professional hitter. Give him a chance to do so, especially since he provides amazing CF defense and a LH bat in the lineup. Stop getting mad at him because he looks worse than Theriot does when he fails. He's playing chess while Theriot plays checkers.

This is a pretty great post, TT.

 

except that if you take out any player's best month, his numbers are likely to not look so hot.

 

Take out Lee's april last year (.392/.468/.567) and he still hit 302.379/.502

[TruffleShuffle]

okay, so if we take out ronny cedeno's april 2006, he was at:

 

.235/.259/.316

 

which is still significantly worse than theriot's non-july numbers of .250/.303/.319 last year. so i think we can safely say that the worst cedeno is worse than what theriot is likely to give you.

[imb]

okay, so if we take out ronny cedeno's april 2006, he was at:

 

.235/.259/.316

 

which is still significantly worse than theriot's non-july numbers of .250/.303/.319 last year. so i think we can safely say that the worst cedeno is worse than what theriot is likely to give you.

 

That's the worst a 23-year old Cedeno would give you. What's the worst a 25-year old Theriot would give you? Do you feel that if Theriot had played a full season at shortstop in 2005, that his numbers would have been worse than the numbers he put up in 2007?

[TruffleShuffle]

okay, so if we take out ronny cedeno's april 2006, he was at:

 

.235/.259/.316

 

which is still significantly worse than theriot's non-july numbers of .250/.303/.319 last year. so i think we can safely say that the worst cedeno is worse than what theriot is likely to give you.

 

That's the worst a 23-year old Cedeno would give you. What's the worst a 25-year old Theriot would give you? Do you feel that if Theriot had played a full season at shortstop in 2005, that his numbers would have been worse than the numbers he put up in 2007?

 

not really. he was polished in 2005; he probably would've given the same blah production that he gave last year.

 

at this point i am just sort of hoping that theriot completely craps the bed for the next month and we can see what happens with cedeno.

[imb]

okay, so if we take out ronny cedeno's april 2006, he was at:

 

.235/.259/.316

 

which is still significantly worse than theriot's non-july numbers of .250/.303/.319 last year. so i think we can safely say that the worst cedeno is worse than what theriot is likely to give you.

 

That's the worst a 23-year old Cedeno would give you. What's the worst a 25-year old Theriot would give you? Do you feel that if Theriot had played a full season at shortstop in 2005, that his numbers would have been worse than the numbers he put up in 2007?

 

not really. he was polished in 2005; he probably would've given the same blah production that he gave last year.

 

at this point i am just sort of hoping that theriot completely craps the bed for the next month and we can see what happens with cedeno.

 

I disagree, but let's go back further. A 23-year old Theriot OPSd .671 at lansing and .621 in West Tenn. You think that a 25-year old Theriot would have OPSd the same (.672) in the majors.

 

That's an improvement, no? Why isn't Cedeno capable of an improvement from his age 23 to age 25 seasons? This is what I'm talking about when I say "sticking to an irrational point for the hell of it".

[TruffleShuffle]

That's an improvement, no? Why isn't Cedeno capable of an improvement from his age 23 to age 25 seasons? This is what I'm talking about when I say "sticking to an irrational point for the hell of it".

 

cedeno was so bad the first time, i think he'd be hard-pressed to "get" major league pitching. i will say, however, that the dusty regime - "it's called hitting, not walking" - probably did not do him any favors. cedeno doesn't seem to have great instincts at the plate; if dusty & co were just telling him to go up to the plate and hack away, that probably helped make him as bad as he was. maybe having a manager/hitting coach with some concept of how to approach a major league at bat would keep him from being completely miserable at the plate.