There's got to be more action

[Soul]

Health of the organiztion at SS? Ronny Cedeno was a non-prospect in the minds of many on this board for a long time, for a fun read search the thread to see when Hendry first added him to the 40 man.

 

What in the world does the general board opinion of rostering Ronny Cedeno 4 years ago have to do with today?

 

Moving Cedeno would leave the Cubs with just Ryan Theriot as a servicable SS. Nobody else in the system appears to have any chance of ever doing anything in the majors. And Theriot himself isn't really much of a SS, more of a 2B who can move over and not be completely overwhelmed. It's a risky situation to be in.

 

And a situation that the Cubs appear uninterested in fixing, which is very disturbing. Thinking Theriot is the answer at SS is a mistake.

[jersey cubs fan]

How about moving Soriano to 2B and Murton to LF?

 

I know it will never happen, but Murton in left, Soriano at second and DeRosa at short, would dramatically improve our offense, and wouldn't downgrade our defense too much IMO. Imagine replacing Theriot's bat with Murton's

That would give us two severely below-average defensive players, and they would be playing key positions. Plus, Murton is weak defensively and he would be replacing one of the best LF's in the game. It would definitely improve the offense, but I'm not sure if I'd do it at the beginning of the year. Defense was the Cubs' strength last year, and I'd rather first see if our offense will improve in other ways (Lee's power returning, better early numbers from Soriano, Fukodome) before we try that.

 

Soriano is not one of the best LF in the game. He has an arm and speed, but nothing else.

[KingCubsFan]

How about moving Soriano to 2B and Murton to LF?

 

I know it will never happen, but Murton in left, Soriano at second and DeRosa at short, would dramatically improve our offense, and wouldn't downgrade our defense too much IMO. Imagine replacing Theriot's bat with Murton's

That would give us two severely below-average defensive players, and they would be playing key positions. Plus, Murton is weak defensively and he would be replacing one of the best LF's in the game. It would definitely improve the offense, but I'm not sure if I'd do it at the beginning of the year. Defense was the Cubs' strength last year, and I'd rather first see if our offense will improve in other ways (Lee's power returning, better early numbers from Soriano, Fukodome) before we try that.

 

Soriano is not one of the best LF in the game. He has an arm and speed, but nothing else.

His arm is game-changing. I'll take watching his weird routes to balls in return for his assists.

[rawaction]

How about moving Soriano to 2B and Murton to LF?

 

I know it will never happen, but Murton in left, Soriano at second and DeRosa at short, would dramatically improve our offense, and wouldn't downgrade our defense too much IMO. Imagine replacing Theriot's bat with Murton's

That would give us two severely below-average defensive players, and they would be playing key positions. Plus, Murton is weak defensively and he would be replacing one of the best LF's in the game. It would definitely improve the offense, but I'm not sure if I'd do it at the beginning of the year. Defense was the Cubs' strength last year, and I'd rather first see if our offense will improve in other ways (Lee's power returning, better early numbers from Soriano, Fukodome) before we try that.

 

Soriano is not one of the best LF in the game. He has an arm and speed, but nothing else.

 

Have you seen the LFs in the NL? Off the top of my head (from 2007 season) Soriano is a better defender than: Alou, Burrell, Willingham, Diaz-ATL in the East. He's better than Bay, Duncan, Dunn, Jenkins/Mench, C. Lee in the Central. And he's better than Holliday, Gonzalez-LAD, Bonds in the West. And I can't think of the LFs in Wash, SD, and Arizona.

 

Not that Soriano is a gold glover by any means, but he IS one of the best LFs defensively in baseball for whatever that is worth.

[CubinNY]

His arm is game-changing.

I love that line. But what does it mean?

 

Not that Soriano is a gold glover by any means, but he IS one of the best LFs defensively in baseball for whatever that is worth.

@$19 a year if I'm not mistaken :wink:

[CUBZ99]

His arm is game-changing.

I love that line. But what does it mean?

 

Not that Soriano is a gold glover by any means, but he IS one of the best LFs defensively in baseball for whatever that is worth.

@$19 a year if I'm not mistaken :wink:

 

It was great last year watching teams consistently run on Soriano, and run themselves out of big innings.

[CubinNY]

His arm is game-changing.

I love that line. But what does it mean?

 

Not that Soriano is a gold glover by any means, but he IS one of the best LFs defensively in baseball for whatever that is worth.

@$19 a year if I'm not mistaken :wink:

 

It was great last year watching teams consistently run on Soriano, and run themselves out of big innings.

That probably had more to do with his 6 errors .978 fielding % and terrible routs to the ball. But he dose have an arm. How many games it changed though remains to be seen. Good fielders don't normally have a lot of assists because people don't run on them.

[KingCubsFan]

His arm is game-changing.

I love that line. But what does it mean?

 

Not that Soriano is a gold glover by any means, but he IS one of the best LFs defensively in baseball for whatever that is worth.

@$19 a year if I'm not mistaken :wink:

 

It was great last year watching teams consistently run on Soriano, and run themselves out of big innings.

That probably had more to do with his 6 errors .978 fielding % and terrible routs to the ball. But he dose have an arm. How many games it changed though remains to be seen.

He killed several rallies and generated a lot of outs with that arm. Not to mention the times teams may have feared taking an extra base or trying to score when a ball was hit to LF.

[pitchcs]

His arm is game-changing.

I love that line. But what does it mean?

 

Not that Soriano is a gold glover by any means, but he IS one of the best LFs defensively in baseball for whatever that is worth.

@$19 a year if I'm not mistaken :wink:

 

It was great last year watching teams consistently run on Soriano, and run themselves out of big innings.

That probably had more to do with his 6 errors .978 fielding % and terrible routs to the ball. But he dose have an arm. How many games it changed though remains to be seen.

He killed several rallies and generated a lot of outs with that arm. Not to mention the times teams may have feared taking an extra base or trying to score when a ball was hit to LF.

 

 

I agree with you to a point. But IIRC, about 3-5 of those assists came from balls he let by him and the runners were trying to take the extra base.

[TheDude]

It is pretty obvious there have to be more moves coming. The Cubs are still loaded (or bloated) with trade bait. Looking at the roster, I see

Marshall, Gallagher, Marquis, Dempster, Cedeno, Fuld, Murton, and Patterson as possible spare parts on this team. Obviously, players like Fuld, Patterson, and Gallagher could still be sent down to AAA, but that still leaves 5 other players that are expected to be on a (not necessarily our) major league roster. The latest rumor has Hendry looking at Marlon Byrd which would make Murton very expendable. Most of us downgrade our players and prospects, but I still think players like Murton, Cedeno, Marshall, Gallagher, and Patterson should have some value for a team looking for young players. Contrary to popular belief around here, there are worse pitchers than Dempster and Marquis on some pitching staffs. I don't know who or when, but there has to be a deal or two out there that Hendry can make to improve the team.

 

You're definitely on a whole different plane again. Why would this organization consider Marquis and Dempster as obvious trade bait? Perhaps the other players named could be trade considerations, but all of them are young enough to ride out the veteran contracts blocking full-time spots, and several of them are already prime candidates for the 25-man roster. Marquis and Dempster have definitive penciled-in slots and I'm not sure what leads you to believe otherwise.

 

Also, none of the names on your list are imminent, flashing-light must-trade targets. Murton, Marshall, and Gallagher are probably the names other teams would be interested in, particularly teams with mid-market payrolls. All are worthy of shots at full-time spots, particularly for a mid-market team trying to compete on a budget. But they are not must-trade names, and the Cubs would be foolish as an organization to feel a burning need to move them now.

 

Additionally, I cannot honestly believe you think most of the people on this board "downgrade" Cubs players and prospects in the context of trade worthiness. The reality is that board tends towards extremes without considering the middle. Players or prospects are most often deemed either untouchable, grossly inflated-value, or worthless, with the youth tending toward the former and the veterans tending toward the latter. These types of extremes puts a player like Murton into the gray around here, and you'll hear arguments for why he has great value or little value. Murton will probably fall into the Walker-syndrome hole of baseball value.

 

But the bottom-line is that I don't see why you think "It is pretty obvious there have to be more moves coming." With no additional moves, the Cubs field the likely choice (along with the Brewers) to head analysts division winner lists. You could pencil in a starting lineup and 5-man rotation right now, with more certainty than most other organizations.

 

I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that the Cubs should look for more improvements, particularly at SS, but it isn't obvious that another move is coming, and any trade made at this stage would be a marginal upgrade to the team.

[Backtobanks]

It is pretty obvious there have to be more moves coming. The Cubs are still loaded (or bloated) with trade bait. Looking at the roster, I see

Marshall, Gallagher, Marquis, Dempster, Cedeno, Fuld, Murton, and Patterson as possible spare parts on this team. Obviously, players like Fuld, Patterson, and Gallagher could still be sent down to AAA, but that still leaves 5 other players that are expected to be on a (not necessarily our) major league roster. The latest rumor has Hendry looking at Marlon Byrd which would make Murton very expendable. Most of us downgrade our players and prospects, but I still think players like Murton, Cedeno, Marshall, Gallagher, and Patterson should have some value for a team looking for young players. Contrary to popular belief around here, there are worse pitchers than Dempster and Marquis on some pitching staffs. I don't know who or when, but there has to be a deal or two out there that Hendry can make to improve the team.

 

You're definitely on a whole different plane again. Why would this organization consider Marquis and Dempster as obvious trade bait? Perhaps the other players named could be trade considerations, but all of them are young enough to ride out the veteran contracts blocking full-time spots, and several of them are already prime candidates for the 25-man roster. Marquis and Dempster have definitive penciled-in slots and I'm not sure what leads you to believe otherwise.

 

Also, none of the names on your list are imminent, flashing-light must-trade targets. Murton, Marshall, and Gallagher are probably the names other teams would be interested in, particularly teams with mid-market payrolls. All are worthy of shots at full-time spots, particularly for a mid-market team trying to compete on a budget. But they are not must-trade names, and the Cubs would be foolish as an organization to feel a burning need to move them now.

 

Additionally, I cannot honestly believe you think most of the people on this board "downgrade" Cubs players and prospects in the context of trade worthiness. The reality is that board tends towards extremes without considering the middle. Players or prospects are most often deemed either untouchable, grossly inflated-value, or worthless, with the youth tending toward the former and the veterans tending toward the latter. These types of extremes puts a player like Murton into the gray around here, and you'll hear arguments for why he has great value or little value. Murton will probably fall into the Walker-syndrome hole of baseball value.

 

But the bottom-line is that I don't see why you think "It is pretty obvious there have to be more moves coming." With no additional moves, the Cubs field the likely choice (along with the Brewers) to head analysts division winner lists. You could pencil in a starting lineup and 5-man rotation right now, with more certainty than most other organizations.

 

I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that the Cubs should look for more improvements, particularly at SS, but it isn't obvious that another move is coming, and any trade made at this stage would be a marginal upgrade to the team.

 

The reason I consider some of these players trade bait is that Lou has lost confidence in their ability. Dempster is floating between the rotation and the bullpen while there are better options on the team (for less money). Marquis is basically considered a starter, but nobody thinks he's good enough and again there are better, younger, and cheaper options (unless they're traded). I've written before that I think Murton, Marshall, and Cedeno could have good careers, but Lou doesn't seem to trust any of them enough to give them a shot. While I agree that none of the players have to be traded, I think Hendry still feels like he needs to make a deal or two and the players that I mentioned (along with other prospects) are the players that seem to be the most expendable without disrupting the core of the team.

[jersey cubs fan]

The reason I consider some of these players trade bait is that Lou has lost confidence in their ability. Dempster is floating between the rotation and the bullpen while there are better options on the team (for less money). Marquis is basically considered a starter, but nobody thinks he's good enough and again there are better, younger, and cheaper options (unless they're traded). I've written before that I think Murton, Marshall, and Cedeno could have good careers, but Lou doesn't seem to trust any of them enough to give them a shot. While I agree that none of the players have to be traded, I think Hendry still feels like he needs to make a deal or two and the players that I mentioned (along with other prospects) are the players that seem to be the most expendable without disrupting the core of the team.

 

I agree that Hendry is still looking to make moves. I'm certain some of these names will be dealt.

[NCCubFan]

His arm is game-changing.

I love that line. But what does it mean?

It means he drives in runs with his arm. :D

[WrigleyinEngland]

I can't believe the object of this off season was to aquire Fuk and call it a day. We narrowly won the central last year and some could argue only won because the Brew Crew imploded they are unlikely to do that again. Hendry added 2 peices to an already stocked bullpen and made our rotation weaker by moving Dempster in to it. We have adressed RF but ignored the gaping hole at SS and CF. We continue to look in to possibilities of upgrading a position where we are ok(2B) all this with relying on Soto producing in his first full season as a catcher. If this is the plan then this is an even worse one than the 'catch the ball' faze we were promised in '06.

[BigbadB]

Maybe it's just becoming harder for two teams to make an agreement on what would be a fair trade.

 

Santana still hasn't been moved from Minnesota. Bedard hasn't been moved, etc...

 

I think the team could start the season with what they have and look to beef up at the deadline if it's obvious that Cedeno and Pie are not the answers to the problems at SS and CF.

[Soul]

They want big value in return for their high-value pieces. I can't really blame them for it. You might be right, sit back and wait to see what happens when the O's are 15 under in July...

 

Then again, if you take that tactic, you might wake up one morning to read the paper and see that another team has snapped him up.

[Vinestal]

Maybe it's just becoming harder for two teams to make an agreement on what would be a fair trade.

 

Santana still hasn't been moved from Minnesota. Bedard hasn't been moved, etc...

 

I think the team could start the season with what they have and look to beef up at the deadline if it's obvious that Cedeno and Pie are not the answers to the problems at SS and CF.

You really think they will even give Cedeno a chance at starting at SS? I have serious doubts about that. I really have a hard time understanding Hendry and his blind eye at the SS possition. Last year we were all talking about him upgrading over Izturis and this year its Theriot, its like he's willing to concede that possition offensively every year, like its suppose to be weak or something. Its frustrating as heck.

[BigbadB]

They want big value in return for their high-value pieces. I can't really blame them for it. You might be right, sit back and wait to see what happens when the O's are 15 under in July...

 

Then again, if you take that tactic, you might wake up one morning to read the paper and see that another team has snapped him up.

 

You probably will lose him. However, other good players will be available at the deadline. They always are. And they will cost a small fortune then, also. But, you can see at the deadline what your true needs are and giving up a small fortune would make a little more sense than upgrading a position that doesn't REALLY need an upgrade and ignoring positions that do.

[anabiono]

can't the same be said for right now in terms of knowing what the needs are on this team?

 

i mean, we are basically fielding the same exact team as last season...we all know what the needs are...it isn't exactly jumping blindfolded into a sea of poisonous snakes...

[CubColtPacer]

can't the same be said for right now in terms of knowing what the needs are on this team?

 

i mean, we are basically fielding the same exact team as last season...we all know what the needs are...it isn't exactly jumping blindfolded into a sea of poisonous snakes...

 

We're not exactly fielding the same team as last season. Pie will finally be given the chance to start everyday..he's a question mark on his production. Soto is the same way. Will the pitching be once again one of the best staffs in the National League, and if not, which pitcher is going to cause that?

There are a lot of people on the Cubs roster that are currently slated to start that have potential for great upside, but also potential for great downside. By the deadline we'd have a better idea which ones became good everyday players and which ones need to be replaced.

[anabiono]

can't the same be said for right now in terms of knowing what the needs are on this team?

 

i mean, we are basically fielding the same exact team as last season...we all know what the needs are...it isn't exactly jumping blindfolded into a sea of poisonous snakes...

 

We're not exactly fielding the same team as last season. Pie will finally be given the chance to start everyday..he's a question mark on his production. Soto is the same way. Will the pitching be once again one of the best staffs in the National League, and if not, which pitcher is going to cause that?

There are a lot of people on the Cubs roster that are currently slated to start that have potential for great upside, but also potential for great downside. By the deadline we'd have a better idea which ones became good everyday players and which ones need to be replaced.

 

ok...i will agree with the soto and pie factor...although soto can't be any worse than the musical chairs we had at catcher last year...

 

but we already know that we need an upgrade at SS, and another starter better than marquis...i would even be willing to say that an upgrade like roberts over derosa will pay dividends as well...unless somehow he has an outstandingly huge career year...which i doubt will happen...

 

and don't get me wrong, i am excited about fukudome...but i believe there is probably going to be an adjustment period for him...kind of like soriano last season...

 

i may be in the minority here, but i think the smartest thing for hendry to do would be to try as hard as possible to get another starter before the season begins...

[BigbadB]

can't the same be said for right now in terms of knowing what the needs are on this team?

 

i mean, we are basically fielding the same exact team as last season...we all know what the needs are...it isn't exactly jumping blindfolded into a sea of poisonous snakes...

 

The Cubs need to see if Soto, Pie and Cedeno are worthy of major league jobs. Cedeno has certainly been given a few opportunities, but he's matured now to the point he's either a major league SS or you move on to someone else. And I think he deserves an opportunity to prove whether he's matured enough to be the answer to the hole at SS. These are cheap, internal options that if proven to be good enough production, could allow the team to upgrade elsewhere in the line up at the trade deadline.

 

With those 3 guys, the Cubs really do have more changes to their 2008 line up from their 2007 line up besides Fukudome. Those 3 guys added in with Fukudome makes half their line up "new".

 

Soriano started the season in CF last year, not Pie. Izturis started at SS. Barrett started at C. Soto, Pie and Cedeno combined for just a hair over 300 at bats last year.

[jersey cubs fan]

can't the same be said for right now in terms of knowing what the needs are on this team?

 

i mean, we are basically fielding the same exact team as last season...we all know what the needs are...it isn't exactly jumping blindfolded into a sea of poisonous snakes...

 

The Cubs need to see if Soto, Pie and Cedeno are worthy of major league jobs. Cedeno has certainly been given a few opportunities, but he's matured now to the point he's either a major league SS or you move on to someone else. And I think he deserves an opportunity to prove whether he's matured enough to be the answer to the hole at SS. These are cheap, internal options that if proven to be good enough production, could allow the team to upgrade elsewhere in the line up at the trade deadline.

 

With those 3 guys, the Cubs really do have more changes to their 2008 line up from their 2007 line up besides Fukudome. Those 3 guys added in with Fukudome makes half their line up "new".

 

Soriano started the season in CF last year, not Pie. Izturis started at SS. Barrett started at C. Soto, Pie and Cedeno combined for just a hair over 300 at bats last year.

 

Why are you pretending Cedeno has a chance for playing time at SS?

 

The Cubs lineup is very similar to the one that ended 2007. Fukudome has replaced Murton/Floyd, and Pie has replaced Jones.

 

We know where the weaknesses are and there is no need to wait to make improvements.

 

Make the upgrades now, and if you need more upgrades later, then you can still do them then.

[Soul]

can't the same be said for right now in terms of knowing what the needs are on this team?

 

i mean, we are basically fielding the same exact team as last season...we all know what the needs are...it isn't exactly jumping blindfolded into a sea of poisonous snakes...

 

The Cubs need to see if Soto, Pie and Cedeno are worthy of major league jobs. Cedeno has certainly been given a few opportunities, but he's matured now to the point he's either a major league SS or you move on to someone else. And I think he deserves an opportunity to prove whether he's matured enough to be the answer to the hole at SS. These are cheap, internal options that if proven to be good enough production, could allow the team to upgrade elsewhere in the line up at the trade deadline.

 

With those 3 guys, the Cubs really do have more changes to their 2008 line up from their 2007 line up besides Fukudome. Those 3 guys added in with Fukudome makes half their line up "new".

 

Soriano started the season in CF last year, not Pie. Izturis started at SS. Barrett started at C. Soto, Pie and Cedeno combined for just a hair over 300 at bats last year.

 

Why are you pretending Cedeno has a chance for playing time at SS?

 

The Cubs lineup is very similar to the one that ended 2007. Fukudome has replaced Murton/Floyd, and Pie has replaced Jones.

 

We know where the weaknesses are and there is no need to wait to make improvements.

 

Make the upgrades now, and if you need more upgrades later, then you can still do them then.

 

It's Jim, remember?

[KingCubsFan]

can't the same be said for right now in terms of knowing what the needs are on this team?

 

i mean, we are basically fielding the same exact team as last season...we all know what the needs are...it isn't exactly jumping blindfolded into a sea of poisonous snakes...

 

We're not exactly fielding the same team as last season. Pie will finally be given the chance to start everyday..he's a question mark on his production. Soto is the same way. Will the pitching be once again one of the best staffs in the National League, and if not, which pitcher is going to cause that?

There are a lot of people on the Cubs roster that are currently slated to start that have potential for great upside, but also potential for great downside. By the deadline we'd have a better idea which ones became good everyday players and which ones need to be replaced.

 

ok...i will agree with the soto and pie factor...although soto can't be any worse than the musical chairs we had at catcher last year...

 

but we already know that we need an upgrade at SS, and another starter better than marquis...i would even be willing to say that an upgrade like roberts over derosa will pay dividends as well...unless somehow he has an outstandingly huge career year...which i doubt will happen...

 

and don't get me wrong, i am excited about fukudome...but i believe there is probably going to be an adjustment period for him...kind of like soriano last season...

 

i may be in the minority here, but i think the smartest thing for hendry to do would be to try as hard as possible to get another starter before the season begins...

I would be surprised if Marquis is worse than Dempster as a starter. Usually, Marquis isn't that bad in the first half. If Dempster is that disgruntled about being in the bullpen, let him get shelled for the first four starts of the season, replace him with Marshall (assuming he's still here), and then get another starter near the deadline once Marquis starts slipping. The main focus before the season starts should be getting a SS if possible, unless we end up getting Roberts and trading away Marshall and Gallagher.