Ryan Theriot

[YearofDaCubs]

Sorry, but Cedeno has done exactly jack when he's had his opportunities. If you guys are ripping on Theriot for his numbers how can you not rip Cedeno's numbers? He was also pretty bad defensively in the majors. OK, so he does good in the winter leagues and the minors, then why is he so damn bad when he is with the Cubs? Until he proves he can hit in the majors,it's Theriot's job to lose unless we trade for an actual SS.

 

Repeat after me: Cedeno was 22 in 2006. Ryan Theriot was 27 in 2007. Do you see how that maybe might be a factor in Cedeno's numbers?

 

I don't understand how people can be this blind to fact.

I don't give a rat's what Cedeno's age is. Until he proves that he's a better player than Theriot, he will be sitting on the bench. I'm sure he has upside, but we haven't seen it yet at the major league level.

[ottawacubbie]

I would be fine with any of these options. I don't believe that Theriot is the second coming, but I am just unsure of the better options at this time and how much we can afford to give to upgrade and still compete. I like Cedeno too. I am not crazy about him, but if he goes off in ST then give him the job. We have nothing to lose there. I would love his speed/power and D he just needs to play at the level that everyone wants . . . ie be better than Theriot and any other option at PiniHendry's fingertips.

[USSoccer]

Sorry, but Cedeno has done exactly jack when he's had his opportunities. If you guys are ripping on Theriot for his numbers how can you not rip Cedeno's numbers? He was also pretty bad defensively in the majors. OK, so he does good in the winter leagues and the minors, then why is he so damn bad when he is with the Cubs? Until he proves he can hit in the majors,it's Theriot's job to lose unless we trade for an actual SS.

 

Repeat after me: Cedeno was 22 in 2006. Ryan Theriot was 27 in 2007. Do you see how that maybe might be a factor in Cedeno's numbers?

 

I don't understand how people can be this blind to fact.

I don't give a rat's what Cedeno's age is. Until he proves that he's a better player than Theriot, he will be sitting on the bench. I'm sure he has upside, but we haven't seen it yet at the major league level.

 

If you don't factor age and level into the equation, you don't understand baseball. Ronny Cedeno has outperformed Ryan Theriot by leaps and bounds at every level, at every age. He was rushed to the bigs in 2006, and sucks, but at least it was sucking at age 22-23, instead of 27-28.

[Sammy Sofa]

Sorry, but Cedeno has done exactly jack when he's had his opportunities. If you guys are ripping on Theriot for his numbers how can you not rip Cedeno's numbers? He was also pretty bad defensively in the majors. OK, so he does good in the winter leagues and the minors, then why is he so damn bad when he is with the Cubs? Until he proves he can hit in the majors,it's Theriot's job to lose unless we trade for an actual SS.

 

Repeat after me: Cedeno was 22 in 2006. Ryan Theriot was 27 in 2007. Do you see how that maybe might be a factor in Cedeno's numbers?

 

I don't understand how people can be this blind to fact.

I don't give a rat's what Cedeno's age is. Until he proves that he's a better player than Theriot, he will be sitting on the bench. I'm sure he has upside, but we haven't seen it yet at the major league level.

 

Wasn't Cedeno also really good for about month or so in the majors...just like Theriot? Why does Theriot get "credit" for that but not Cedeno, especially since Cedeno has been much better at all the other levels and at a younger age?

[Guest]

Sorry, but Cedeno has done exactly jack when he's had his opportunities. If you guys are ripping on Theriot for his numbers how can you not rip Cedeno's numbers? He was also pretty bad defensively in the majors. OK, so he does good in the winter leagues and the minors, then why is he so damn bad when he is with the Cubs? Until he proves he can hit in the majors,it's Theriot's job to lose unless we trade for an actual SS.

 

Repeat after me: Cedeno was 22 in 2006. Ryan Theriot was 27 in 2007. Do you see how that maybe might be a factor in Cedeno's numbers?

 

I don't understand how people can be this blind to fact.

I don't give a rat's what Cedeno's age is. Until he proves that he's a better player than Theriot, he will be sitting on the bench. I'm sure he has upside, but we haven't seen it yet at the major league level.

 

His age points out he was rushed and not prepared when he had his one chance. He has since improved and isn't the same player. You should give a rat's ass about Ronny's age. Oh, and that's a lie...we have seen his upside in short spurts at the big league level.

[Backtobanks]

The idea of Ronny Cedeno is always met with such shock and dismissal(none in this thread, but just saying) that I feel the need to go over it again. At Ronny's current age, Theriot was still in the minors. Ronny was rushed to the majors before he was ready, and tore up the minors in '05 and '07. He was beyond terrible in '06. We all recognize this. He was also 22 years old. Ronny's minor league numbers project him to be a better player than Theriot next year, and a much better player down the line. It should be his spot to lose.

Sorry, but Cedeno has done exactly jack when he's had his opportunities. If you guys are ripping on Theriot for his numbers how can you not rip Cedeno's numbers? He was also pretty bad defensively in the majors. OK, so he does good in the winter leagues and the minors, then why is he so damn bad when he is with the Cubs? Until he proves he can hit in the majors,it's Theriot's job to lose unless we trade for an actual SS.

 

I've said this before and I will say it again. Lou has decided that Theriot is the starting SS and his is the only opinion that counts. I would love to see the Cubs have open competition at SS and let the better player start. I think the hangup with Cedeno is that he makes too many mistakes (physical and mental) for Lou. I think Cedeno needs to dedicate himself to reaching his full potential. His reputation as a playboy might have an effect on his onfield play. The problem is that once a player gets neglected by Lou (Cedeno, Murton, Marshall, etc.), I think there's little hope of the situation changing.

[HoopsCubs]

I've said this before and I will say it again. Lou has decided that Theriot is the starting SS and his is the only opinion that counts. I would love to see the Cubs have open competition at SS and let the better player start. I think the hangup with Cedeno is that he makes too many mistakes (physical and mental) for Lou. I think Cedeno needs to dedicate himself to reaching his full potential. His reputation as a playboy might have an effect on his onfield play. The problem is that once a player gets neglected by Lou (Cedeno, Murton, Marshall, etc.), I think there's little hope of the situation changing.

 

All good points. It wouldn't surprise me if Lou was telling Hendry every other day to trade those guys for a proven bat or arm.

[YearofDaCubs]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

[The Voice of Reason]

The idea of Ronny Cedeno is always met with such shock and dismissal(none in this thread, but just saying) that I feel the need to go over it again. At Ronny's current age, Theriot was still in the minors. Ronny was rushed to the majors before he was ready, and tore up the minors in '05 and '07. He was beyond terrible in '06. We all recognize this. He was also 22 years old. Ronny's minor league numbers project him to be a better player than Theriot next year, and a much better player down the line. It should be his spot to lose.

Sorry, but Cedeno has done exactly jack when he's had his opportunities. If you guys are ripping on Theriot for his numbers how can you not rip Cedeno's numbers? He was also pretty bad defensively in the majors. OK, so he does good in the winter leagues and the minors, then why is he so damn bad when he is with the Cubs? Until he proves he can hit in the majors,it's Theriot's job to lose unless we trade for an actual SS.

 

I've said this before and I will say it again. Lou has decided that Theriot is the starting SS and his is the only opinion that counts. I would love to see the Cubs have open competition at SS and let the better player start. I think the hangup with Cedeno is that he makes too many mistakes (physical and mental) for Lou. I think Cedeno needs to dedicate himself to reaching his full potential. His reputation as a playboy might have an effect on his onfield play. The problem is that once a player gets neglected by Lou (Cedeno, Murton, Marshall, etc.), I think there's little hope of the situation changing.

 

Marmol's reputation as a "playboy" hasn't seemed to hurt his stance with Lou too much.

[USSoccer]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

 

So when will Theriot prove he can hit at the ML level?

[YearofDaCubs]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

 

So when will Theriot prove he can hit at the ML level?

Theriot's numbers at this time are better than Cedeno's. I never said Theriot was the best SS in the majors but at this time he is better than Cedeno.

[USSoccer]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

 

So when will Theriot prove he can hit at the ML level?

Theriot's numbers at this time are better than Cedeno's. I never said Theriot was the best SS in the majors but at this time he is better than Cedeno.

 

Theriot was one of the worst SS in the NL. He's 5 years older than Cedeno. Cedeno would be very hard pressed to do worse than Theriot did last season.

[YearofDaCubs]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

 

So when will Theriot prove he can hit at the ML level?

Theriot's numbers at this time are better than Cedeno's. I never said Theriot was the best SS in the majors but at this time he is better than Cedeno.

 

Theriot was one of the worst SS in the NL. He's 5 years older than Cedeno. Cedeno would be very hard pressed to do worse than Theriot did last season.

The numbers don't indicate that.

[Guest]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

 

So when will Theriot prove he can hit at the ML level?

Theriot's numbers at this time are better than Cedeno's. I never said Theriot was the best SS in the majors but at this time he is better than Cedeno.

 

Theriot was one of the worst SS in the NL. He's 5 years older than Cedeno. Cedeno would be very hard pressed to do worse than Theriot did last season.

The numbers don't indicate that.

 

They didn't get anywhere near equal playing time.

[Post Count Padder]

Anyone have PECOTA projections to help end this discussion?

 

Riot might have put up better MLB numbers, but Cedeno is younger and has a much much higher ceiling.

[SouthSideRyan]

I preemptively made my argument, and then was still ignored. If Cedeno was never brought up to the majors in '06 and instead played in AAA all year, the Cedeno haters would be all for bringing him up to take the job. Instead he was playing at a level he shouldn't have been at and is cast to hell for the rest of his life because of it.

 

If Ryan Theriot was playing in the majors at the age of 22-23, he would be historically bad. Because he wasn't in the majors at the time, you don't have the 450 OPS he would've put up to point to and say we can never play him again. It's been 2 years since '06. Let it go. Guys have bad years. When there's an explanation behind it, say being way over your head cause you're not ready to be in the big leagues yet, you probably shouldn't use that and only that to weight what to expect out of Cedeno.

[Clem Fandango]

Anyone have PECOTA projections to help end this discussion?

 

They don't have new ones, but FWIW their 2008 projections in the 5-year forecast are as follows...

 

2008 (age 28) .274/.333/.361 453PA 61R 21-2B 4-3B 2HR 33RBI 34BB 47K's 18SB

 

2008 (age 25) .276/.316/.413 533PA 67R 25-2B 4-3B 11HR 55RBI 25BB 80K's 13SB

 

Of course this is all projected from after the 2006 season, not this season

[SouthSideRyan]

Anyone have PECOTA projections to help end this discussion?

 

They don't have new ones, but FWIW their 2008 projections in the 5-year forecast are as follows...

 

2008 (age 28) .274/.333/.361 453PA 61R 21-2B 4-3B 2HR 33RBI 34BB 47K's 18SB

 

2008 (age 25) .276/.316/.413 533PA 67R 25-2B 4-3B 11HR 55RBI 25BB 80K's 13SB

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, that would not have '07s #s factored in?

[Guest]

I preemptively made my argument, and then was still ignored. If Cedeno was never brought up to the majors in '06 and instead played in AAA all year, the Cedeno haters would be all for bringing him up to take the job. Instead he was playing at a level he shouldn't have been at and is cast to hell for the rest of his life because of it.

 

If Ryan Theriot was playing in the majors at the age of 22-23, he would be historically bad. Because he wasn't in the majors at the time, you don't have the 450 OPS he would've put up to point to and say we can never play him again. It's been 2 years since '06. Let it go. Guys have bad years. When there's an explanation behind it, say being way over your head cause you're not ready to be in the big leagues yet, you probably shouldn't use that and only that to weight what to expect out of Cedeno.

 

I would sig that (or your previous post) but the moment I do, the Cubs will trade Ronny and make my efforts pointless.

[Rob]

Anyone have PECOTA projections to help end this discussion?

 

They don't have new ones, but FWIW their 2008 projections in the 5-year forecast are as follows...

 

2008 (age 28) .274/.333/.361 453PA 61R 21-2B 4-3B 2HR 33RBI 34BB 47K's 18SB

 

2008 (age 25) .276/.316/.413 533PA 67R 25-2B 4-3B 11HR 55RBI 25BB 80K's 13SB

 

Of course this is all projected from after the 2006 season, not this season

 

Considering the numbers Cedeno posted last year, his projection will increase by a nice chunk... Theriot's will stay about the same.

 

Yeah, even the projections posted after Cedeno's disastrous 2006 favor him... that's hilarious and sad at the same time.

[SouthSideRyan]

I would sig that (or your previous post) but the moment I do, the Cubs will trade Ronny and make my efforts pointless.

 

Oh, Ronny's totally gone. I don't know why I waste the time getting frustrated over it.

[Guest]

I would sig that (or your previous post) but the moment I do, the Cubs will trade Ronny and make my efforts pointless.

 

Oh, Ronny's totally gone. I don't know why I waste the time getting frustrated over it.

 

With Infante gone, who'd be the backup MIF? Granted, I agree he's gone.

[Clem Fandango]

Anyone have PECOTA projections to help end this discussion?

 

They don't have new ones, but FWIW their 2008 projections in the 5-year forecast are as follows...

 

2008 (age 28) .274/.333/.361 453PA 61R 21-2B 4-3B 2HR 33RBI 34BB 47K's 18SB

 

2008 (age 25) .276/.316/.413 533PA 67R 25-2B 4-3B 11HR 55RBI 25BB 80K's 13SB

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, that would not have '07s #s factored in?

 

Yeah, this is based off of 06's numbers. These were the projections made prior to the 2007 season

[squally1313]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

 

I love this logic. How is Cedeno going to prove he can hit major league hitting when he is getting at most 1 start a week? You saw what that kind of stuff did to Murton last year, and I pray to God it doesn't happen to Pie in 2008.

 

To repeat what everyone else has said, because apparently it's still necessary:

At age 23, Cedeno was absolutely terrible, to the tune of a .610 OPS for the Major League level Chicago Cubs

At age 23, Theriot was almost as bad for the freaking single A and double AA minor league teams. (671 and 621 OPS)

 

Theriot's amazing performance at that age got him sent back to high A ball, making him, at the time, a 24 year old playing single A ball. There he posted what I guess is an acceptable 273/367/342 line, but nothing that screams future major league starter.

 

What did Cedeno do at age 24? You mean besides put up a ridiculous 359/422/537 line at AAA? Well not much I guess...

 

To a certain degree, I understand the logic. We know what we will get out of Theriot this year. He'll hustle, get his uniform dirty, maybe slide into first a couple times, etc....But he'll do all that putting up numbers that are replacement level at best. I know all of us here, Theriot lovers and Theriot haters, can agree that Eckstein is the most overrated player in recent memory. Theriot's numbers last year are worse than any of the last three years for Eckstein.

 

Is there a chance, if Cedeno starts, he puts up the same crap numbers he did at age 23? Of course. But of all the shortstops in AAA with more than 50 games played, Cedeno was second in OPS. He's got nothing else to prove in the minor leagues (For what it's worth, he also threw up a 921 OPS in 2005 at AAA in 65 games). To let him sit on the bench while Hustle McGrit puts up a 700ish OPS next year is just a wasted opportunity.

[YearofDaCubs]

Not only did Cedeno suck in 2006, but he sucked the small amount of time he played in 2007 too. I hope you guys are right, that it's not the same Cedeno, but I'm skeptical and until he proves he can hit in the major leagues he will be benched. That's a fact. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him traded by Hendry, but that's another story.

 

I love this logic. How is Cedeno going to prove he can hit major league hitting when he is getting at most 1 start a week? You saw what that kind of stuff did to Murton last year, and I pray to God it doesn't happen to Pie in 2008.

 

To repeat what everyone else has said, because apparently it's still necessary:

At age 23, Cedeno was absolutely terrible, to the tune of a .610 OPS for the Major League level Chicago Cubs

At age 23, Theriot was almost as bad for the freaking single A and double AA minor league teams. (671 and 621 OPS)

 

Theriot's amazing performance at that age got him sent back to high A ball, making him, at the time, a 24 year old playing single A ball. There he posted what I guess is an acceptable 273/367/342 line, but nothing that screams future major league starter.

 

What did Cedeno do at age 24? You mean besides put up a ridiculous 359/422/537 line at AAA? Well not much I guess...

 

To a certain degree, I understand the logic. We know what we will get out of Theriot this year. He'll hustle, get his uniform dirty, maybe slide into first a couple times, etc....But he'll do all that putting up numbers that are replacement level at best. I know all of us here, Theriot lovers and Theriot haters, can agree that Eckstein is the most overrated player in recent memory. Theriot's numbers last year are worse than any of the last three years for Eckstein.

 

Is there a chance, if Cedeno starts, he puts up the same crap numbers he did at age 23? Of course. But of all the shortstops in AAA with more than 50 games played, Cedeno was second in OPS. He's got nothing else to prove in the minor leagues (For what it's worth, he also threw up a 921 OPS in 2005 at AAA in 65 games). To let him sit on the bench while Hustle McGrit puts up a 700ish OPS next year is just a wasted opportunity.

One reason why Theriot's numbers were so bad in the minors is because the Cubs tried to make him a switch hitter.