MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[UMFan83]

Look for this trade to be announced today, so as to not give Brett Favre's retirement its day in the sun.

[Peoriaman]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

[ctcf]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

They apparently also want me to stop being a Cubs fan.

[Moonshot]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

Is this what the O's wanted? Or the O's FANS?? There's a big difference.

[David]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

Ok. I'm just curious. Where are you getting this from?

 

Nobody else (besides delusional O's fans who overvalue Roberts) has seriously suggested that Rich Hill was ever potentially part of a Roberts only deal, AFAIK. I know he was mentioned in some Roberts/Bedard rumors.

 

That aside, there's no way Hill would ever be sent in a deal for Roberts only, anyway, so it's barely worth discussing.

[CubColtPacer]

I guess it needs to be ask again:

 

In what world is Brian Roberts worth 4 players? I wouldn't give up more then 3 players for Roberts. If the Cubs have to give up 4 players, and take back Jay Payton, I would pull Gallagher from the table, IMMEDIATELY.

 

In the baseball world. Using 3-year splits, do you know how many 2B have put an OPS over .800 besides Roberts? Utley, Kent, Cano, and Polanco (Hudson doesn't have the 2005 to qualify, I think from injury, but he should be there). There are other young guys without 3 years that project over .800 in 2008 such as Johnson, Uggla, and Pedroia.

 

Utley and his .900+ OPS is in a tier by himself. Then you have a 6-10 guys who might give you .800+, which should be considered plus production for that position.

 

In the baseball world a guy that gives you plus production at a position and still close enough to age 30 to be relevant has value. Whether your personal baseball beliefs include steals or not, many in the baseball world tack a 50+ steals rider onto an .800+ OPS as additional value.

 

Honestly, I don't get the problem, unless you've been playing too much PS3. 4 players is a lot only if you consider 'proven' MLB numbers in the package. 4 players is not a lot if all would qualify as unproven talent and none qualify as can't miss prospects, and in this case Murton, Cedeno, Gallagher, and one B prospect constitutes a package of unproven every day talent and it does not include a can't miss prospect.

 

Take out Roberts "roid" year of 2005 which his OPS was .902 and he's not in that .800 OPS club either. In fact, if you look at the last 2 years of production and we are focusing on OPS, DeRosa's avg OPS was .802, whereas Roberts' was .783.

 

I'm not going to argue how valuable Roberts is to ANY team, but I will argue just how much of an upgrade he is to THIS team. I realize that he's an incredible leadoff man, and can steal bases, which the Cubs do need, but not in a 2B. If he played SS, do what it takes to get him.

First, welcome to the board. Second, the smack-down.

 

Unfortunately for you, you cannot simply choose to remove a year of player's career to suit your argument and get anywhere, especially around here. And it's a clear overstatement to say 'roid year' when Roberts name has been linked to one usage of hgh publicly. So both sides of your argument really have little relevance and don't contradict anything I previously posted.

 

Not that I disagree with your premise, but if you think Roberts only used HGH one time because that's all the Mitchell report could uncover, I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

I'll disagree with you on that (maybe again?). Why would Roberts admit in casual conversation that he used steroids, then lie about how much he used it? He either would lie about it completely, or he would tell the truth. It simply doesn't make sense that in 2004 he was willing to tell his friend, who he knew to be another steroid user, that he used steroids but then lie about the frequency.

 

Because he's been caught w/ his hand in the cookie jar, and pleading minimal (one-time) use would somehow be better than admitting to continual use? It's more plausible to claim "I made a mistake" if only done once (or a few times); much harder to pass scrutiny when admitting continual use... Obviously I have no clue how many times Roberts used, but I disagree w/ the statement that it's all or nothing in terms of his mea culpa...

 

But he wasn't caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Here is the only evidence against Roberts:

 

According to Bigbie, however, in 2004 Roberts admitted to him that he had

injected himself once or twice with steroids in 2003. Until this admission, Bigbie had never

suspected Roberts of using steroids.

 

So we have two friends talking privately. Roberts wasn't suspected of anything at the time. He had no reason to admit to steroids. If he wanted to cover it up, he easily could have. All he had to do was not tell his friend about his steroid use.

 

Instead, he did. So why would he then lie that he only used it once or twice?

 

His public apology means nothing to me. He easily could have been lying. I just don't see why he would tell so much of the truth to Bigbie, but then lie about a small part of the issue.

[Peoriaman]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

Ok. I'm just curious. Where are you getting this from?

 

Nobody else (besides delusional O's fans who overvalue Roberts) has seriously suggested that Rich Hill was ever potentially part of a Roberts only deal, AFAIK. I know he was mentioned in some Roberts/Bedard rumors.

 

That aside, there's no way Hill would ever be sent in a deal for Roberts only, anyway, so it's barely worth discussing.

 

This has nothing to do with the fans, but with the O's.

 

David, check your in-box.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'll disagree with you on that (maybe again?). Why would Roberts admit in casual conversation that he used steroids, then lie about how much he used it? He either would lie about it completely, or he would tell the truth. It simply doesn't make sense that in 2004 he was willing to tell his friend, who he knew to be another steroid user, that he used steroids but then lie about the frequency.

 

Wow, this post makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't make sense that he'd let a friend know about taking steroids, but lie to the public about how often he used them? Seriously? You don't think that makes sense? Wow.

 

Andy Pettite did the exact same thing by the way. History is littered with people who have been forced to admit a wrong doing but who also downplay the frequency/extent of their wrongdoing.

 

It makes perfect sense why he would try and downplay how often he took them.

[MADD_DOG_31]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

Hill is better and much cheaper than Roberts.....i dont know if Andy would have even asked for him cuz he already knew the answer

[CubColtPacer]

I'll disagree with you on that (maybe again?). Why would Roberts admit in casual conversation that he used steroids, then lie about how much he used it? He either would lie about it completely, or he would tell the truth. It simply doesn't make sense that in 2004 he was willing to tell his friend, who he knew to be another steroid user, that he used steroids but then lie about the frequency.

 

Wow, this post makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't make sense that he'd let a friend know about taking steroids, but lie to the public about how often he used them? Seriously? You don't think that makes sense? Wow.

 

Andy Pettite did the exact same thing by the way. History is littered with people who have been forced to admit a wrong doing but who also downplay the frequency/extent of their wrongdoing.

 

It makes perfect sense why he would try and downplay how often he took them.

 

I don't care what he said publicly. I care what he said to Bigbie. Bigbie said that Roberts told him that he had used it "once or twice" the season before. That makes it completely different from the Pettite situation where there were implications from other people that said that he had been using more than that. Of course Roberts would try to downplay the crime to the public. Why would he try to downplay it to Bigbie?

[Peoriaman]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

Hill is better and much cheaper than Roberts.....i dont know if Andy would have even asked for him cuz he already knew the answer

 

 

The Cubs went to the O's. You had better believe the O's weren't shy about who they wanted from the Cubs. They wanted and asked for Hill. Roberts is an all-star. Just the facts.

[anabiono]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

Ok. I'm just curious. Where are you getting this from?

 

Nobody else (besides delusional O's fans who overvalue Roberts) has seriously suggested that Rich Hill was ever potentially part of a Roberts only deal, AFAIK. I know he was mentioned in some Roberts/Bedard rumors.

 

That aside, there's no way Hill would ever be sent in a deal for Roberts only, anyway, so it's barely worth discussing.

 

This has nothing to do with the fans, but with the O's.

 

David, check your in-box.

 

now we have our very own phantom insider?

 

:confused:

[David]

Well, regardless, the O's could've asked for whatever they wanted. That doesn't mean they ever had a chance in Hell of getting Hill, and obviously, talks have progressed since then and the packages since discussed do not involve him at all.

[Moonshot]

O's wanted Hill and Colvin. If we don't give them Hill, they will want more than 2 players.

 

This guy keeps coming in here at random times and posting stuff like this as though he has some form of inside info. Does anybody know who he is?

 

I am Peoriaman! :)

 

That is what the O's wanted. They call cedeno, Marshall, etc "spare parts". Roberts is an all-star and they want one very good major MLB player in return. That is Hill.

 

Hill is better and much cheaper than Roberts.....i dont know if Andy would have even asked for him cuz he already knew the answer

 

 

The Cubs went to the O's. You had better believe the O's weren't shy about who they wanted from the Cubs. They wanted and asked for Hill. Roberts is an all-star. Just the facts.

 

Roberts was the LONE all-star on a 69 win team. That's like the prettiest ugly chick left in the bar!! Come on.

[Peoriaman]

Well, regardless, the O's could've asked for whatever they wanted. That doesn't mean they ever had a chance in Hell of getting Hill, and obviously, talks have progressed since then and the packages since discussed do not involve him at all.

 

well, I never siad they would get Hill. I said they wanted him and Colvin and the deal stalled. Now they want 4 guys if they can't get those 2.

 

It does matter who the O's want, they have to sign off on the deal just like the Cubs.

 

I am just passing along info, not making any judgements.

[anabiono]

Well, regardless, the O's could've asked for whatever they wanted. That doesn't mean they ever had a chance in Hell of getting Hill, and obviously, talks have progressed since then and the packages since discussed do not involve him at all.

 

well, I never siad they would get Hill. I said they wanted him and Colvin and the deal stalled. Now they want 4 guys if they can't get those 2.

 

It does matter who the O's want, they have to sign off on the deal just like the Cubs.

 

I am just passing along info, not making any judgements.

 

i could care less if they want colvin...but hill is silly...unless we are going to be getting markakis back too...

[CyHawk_Cub]

I guess it needs to be ask again:

 

In what world is Brian Roberts worth 4 players? I wouldn't give up more then 3 players for Roberts. If the Cubs have to give up 4 players, and take back Jay Payton, I would pull Gallagher from the table, IMMEDIATELY.

 

In the baseball world. Using 3-year splits, do you know how many 2B have put an OPS over .800 besides Roberts? Utley, Kent, Cano, and Polanco (Hudson doesn't have the 2005 to qualify, I think from injury, but he should be there). There are other young guys without 3 years that project over .800 in 2008 such as Johnson, Uggla, and Pedroia.

 

Utley and his .900+ OPS is in a tier by himself. Then you have a 6-10 guys who might give you .800+, which should be considered plus production for that position.

 

In the baseball world a guy that gives you plus production at a position and still close enough to age 30 to be relevant has value. Whether your personal baseball beliefs include steals or not, many in the baseball world tack a 50+ steals rider onto an .800+ OPS as additional value.

 

Honestly, I don't get the problem, unless you've been playing too much PS3. 4 players is a lot only if you consider 'proven' MLB numbers in the package. 4 players is not a lot if all would qualify as unproven talent and none qualify as can't miss prospects, and in this case Murton, Cedeno, Gallagher, and one B prospect constitutes a package of unproven every day talent and it does not include a can't miss prospect.

 

Take out Roberts "roid" year of 2005 which his OPS was .902 and he's not in that .800 OPS club either. In fact, if you look at the last 2 years of production and we are focusing on OPS, DeRosa's avg OPS was .802, whereas Roberts' was .783.

 

I'm not going to argue how valuable Roberts is to ANY team, but I will argue just how much of an upgrade he is to THIS team. I realize that he's an incredible leadoff man, and can steal bases, which the Cubs do need, but not in a 2B. If he played SS, do what it takes to get him.

First, welcome to the board. Second, the smack-down.

 

Unfortunately for you, you cannot simply choose to remove a year of player's career to suit your argument and get anywhere, especially around here. And it's a clear overstatement to say 'roid year' when Roberts name has been linked to one usage of hgh publicly. So both sides of your argument really have little relevance and don't contradict anything I previously posted.

 

Not that I disagree with your premise, but if you think Roberts only used HGH one time because that's all the Mitchell report could uncover, I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

I'll disagree with you on that (maybe again?). Why would Roberts admit in casual conversation that he used steroids, then lie about how much he used it? He either would lie about it completely, or he would tell the truth. It simply doesn't make sense that in 2004 he was willing to tell his friend, who he knew to be another steroid user, that he used steroids but then lie about the frequency.

 

Because he's been caught w/ his hand in the cookie jar, and pleading minimal (one-time) use would somehow be better than admitting to continual use? It's more plausible to claim "I made a mistake" if only done once (or a few times); much harder to pass scrutiny when admitting continual use... Obviously I have no clue how many times Roberts used, but I disagree w/ the statement that it's all or nothing in terms of his mea culpa...

 

But he wasn't caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Here is the only evidence against Roberts:

 

According to Bigbie, however, in 2004 Roberts admitted to him that he had

injected himself once or twice with steroids in 2003. Until this admission, Bigbie had never

suspected Roberts of using steroids.

 

So we have two friends talking privately. Roberts wasn't suspected of anything at the time. He had no reason to admit to steroids. If he wanted to cover it up, he easily could have. All he had to do was not tell his friend about his steroid use.

 

Instead, he did. So why would he then lie that he only used it once or twice?

 

His public apology means nothing to me. He easily could have been lying. I just don't see why he would tell so much of the truth to Bigbie, but then lie about a small part of the issue.

 

Perhaps not decisively so, but in this environment, anyone named in a PED investigation are going to be presumed guilty...better to admit fault, yet mitigate blame by admitting to as little as possible... As far as his admission to Bigbie (& I'm no psychiatrist), its plausible that users are in clear states of denial--Exhibit #1: The Rocket...

Edited March 4, 2008 by CyHawk_Cub

[David]

Well, regardless, the O's could've asked for whatever they wanted. That doesn't mean they ever had a chance in Hell of getting Hill, and obviously, talks have progressed since then and the packages since discussed do not involve him at all.

 

well, I never siad they would get Hill. I said they wanted him and Colvin and the deal stalled. Now they want 4 guys if they can't get those 2.

 

It does matter who the O's want, they have to sign off on the deal just like the Cubs.

 

I am just passing along info, not making any judgements.

 

Yea, I realized you never said that. I just wanted to point it out before the overreaction train started going.

[Peoriaman]

Well, regardless, the O's could've asked for whatever they wanted. That doesn't mean they ever had a chance in Hell of getting Hill, and obviously, talks have progressed since then and the packages since discussed do not involve him at all.

 

well, I never siad they would get Hill. I said they wanted him and Colvin and the deal stalled. Now they want 4 guys if they can't get those 2.

 

It does matter who the O's want, they have to sign off on the deal just like the Cubs.

 

I am just passing along info, not making any judgements.

 

Yea, I realized you never said that. I just wanted to point it out before the overreaction train started going.

 

 

Thanks. :)

[ThePenguin11]

I'll disagree with you on that (maybe again?). Why would Roberts admit in casual conversation that he used steroids, then lie about how much he used it? He either would lie about it completely, or he would tell the truth. It simply doesn't make sense that in 2004 he was willing to tell his friend, who he knew to be another steroid user, that he used steroids but then lie about the frequency.

 

Wow, this post makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't make sense that he'd let a friend know about taking steroids, but lie to the public about how often he used them? Seriously? You don't think that makes sense? Wow.

 

Andy Pettite did the exact same thing by the way. History is littered with people who have been forced to admit a wrong doing but who also downplay the frequency/extent of their wrongdoing.

 

It makes perfect sense why he would try and downplay how often he took them.

 

I don't care what he said publicly. I care what he said to Bigbie. Bigbie said that Roberts told him that he had used it "once or twice" the season before. That makes it completely different from the Pettite situation where there were implications from other people that said that he had been using more than that. Of course Roberts would try to downplay the crime to the public. Why would he try to downplay it to Bigbie?

 

Unless Roberts used anabolic steroids, you really could not expect to see an increase due to HGH. It's a common misnomer that HGH is used alone to make a person bigger and stronger. Although a guy like Andy Pettite might have used it to repair muscle tissue, the common use is as a steroid enhancer. From what I'm told by people who have used steroids, step one is to take anabolic steroids and once you've started to reach diminishing returns, you move on to HGH. HGH supposedly allows muscle groups to separate, allowing them to grow even larger. I don't have this on any high authority, but I think it should be noted that one-time usage or even brief, casual usage would not make a player into a substantially better player. If anyone else has a better grasp of this information, I invite your opinion to either validate or correct me.

[TheDude]

While I would normally agree with you as far as picking and choosing our years and sample set to form an argument, in this case, I do not. The facts are, that there is a steroid cloud over Roberts. And in the year in question, he set a career high in OPS. It's a little odd to me, that a guy has a career (to that point) high in OPS of .720, then supposedly one time (right) took steroids and his OPS for that year is .902. And since then hasn't been able to come close to that again. I believe him when he says he took it once. But I think the once is for one season. Regardless, I think that .902 is really skewing his numbers and making him look a little better than he really is, and I do believe he's a great player, but some of the O's fans believe he is a superstar and a baseball savior. I am sorry, but I don't see it.

 

It's not like Roberts hasn't lied before, does anyone else remember the article in ESPN the Magazine back then where Roberts was crediting his contact lenses as the reason for his increased averages? It was right around the time that he would have been using (or used) steroids. I'll try to find that link. Here it is.... http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?id=2134694

Roberts hgh use was in 2003 wasn't it? The admission came in 2005, but the use was in 2003, if I understand it correctly. if I am remembering correctly, the point is moot again.

[David]

Unless Roberts used anabolic steroids, you really could not expect to see an increase due to HGH. It's a common misnomer that HGH is used alone to make a person bigger and stronger. Although a guy like Andy Pettite might have used it to repair muscle tissue, the common use is as a steroid enhancer. From what I'm told by people who have used steroids, step one is to take anabolic steroids and once you've started to reach diminishing returns, you move on to HGH. HGH supposedly allows muscle groups to separate, allowing them to grow even larger. I don't have this on any high authority, but I think it should be noted that one-time usage or even brief, casual usage would not make a player into a substantially better player. If anyone else has a better grasp of this information, I invite your opinion to either validate or correct me.

 

I believe this post is about right. That's about the same that I've heard.

 

A lot of people seem to be confusing HGH with anabolic steroids.

[Moonshot]

While I would normally agree with you as far as picking and choosing our years and sample set to form an argument, in this case, I do not. The facts are, that there is a steroid cloud over Roberts. And in the year in question, he set a career high in OPS. It's a little odd to me, that a guy has a career (to that point) high in OPS of .720, then supposedly one time (right) took steroids and his OPS for that year is .902. And since then hasn't been able to come close to that again. I believe him when he says he took it once. But I think the once is for one season. Regardless, I think that .902 is really skewing his numbers and making him look a little better than he really is, and I do believe he's a great player, but some of the O's fans believe he is a superstar and a baseball savior. I am sorry, but I don't see it.

 

It's not like Roberts hasn't lied before, does anyone else remember the article in ESPN the Magazine back then where Roberts was crediting his contact lenses as the reason for his increased averages? It was right around the time that he would have been using (or used) steroids. I'll try to find that link. Here it is.... http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?id=2134694

Roberts hgh use was in 2003 wasn't it? The admission came in 2005, but the use was in 2003, if I understand it correctly. if I am remembering correctly, the point is moot again.

 

That's my bad then, I thought it was 2005. I stand corrected. Regardless of that though, you have to admit there's something suspicious of his 2005 stats.

[Post Count Padder]

I'll add my two cents despite only quickly reading the previous posts.

 

Yeah, that one season was definitely a fluke, but who's to say he still won't put up at least an .800 OPS? He hits for average and usually has a pretty decent OBP. He won't hit 20 hRs again, but he could still hit 10-12, especially at Wrigley.

[carolinacubbie]

Long time reader, first time poster (mostly to the fact that, I have tried now about five different names to get on here, and finally the mods accepted me) but my opinion on this situation is Roberts would be GREAT for us. I can understand the fact that people try and say that he isn't that much of an upgrade over Derosa, and that is a big maybe, but I can somewhat see where yall are coming from. The thing is though Dero is a unbelievable upgrade over Fontenot or Cedeno on the bench. When it comes to the Soriano situation, if I truly believed Alfonso could move down in the order and still produce like he does in the number one spot, I would want him hitting 4 or 5 strictly so he could drive more runs in. The thing is though it doesn't seem as if he feels comfortable at all hitting there so I say leave him at 1 and bat Roberts in the two hole if we get him. Everyone on here knows come opening day they would love to see Roberts hitting 2nd instead of Theriot, no matter if you are for or against the trade. Plus B Roberts is a South Carolina boy, and I am a huge fan, so I have a little biased opinion when it comes to that. Maybe Justin Smoak can slip to us, or in all seriousness, kind of off topic, (when it comes to this thread, yall have talked about everything, so I don't honestly think anything is off topic) but Reese Havens has been killing it for USC this year, if he keeps doing what he is doing, I would love to see the Cubs draft him at 19. (I think that is their pick???)