MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[CubinNY]

The Baltimore Sun believes the Cubs could be offering Sean Gallagher and Matt Murton in return for Brian Roberts.

 

That's not nearly as attractive as the packages ESPN was kicking around. We like Murton, but he's not a difference maker, and Gallagher lacks top-of-the-rotation upside. The Orioles have no reason to move Roberts unless it gets them a top talent, and neither Gallagher nor Murton qualifies. Felix Pie does, but he's not on the table right now, says the Sun.

Source: Baltimore Sun

I like that deal much better. I'd probably do a Sean M., Sean G., Matt M. trade.

[ThePenguin11]

K well this is for multiple discussions.

First off: The Murton thing don't be a jerk and be a smart alec because I said lead off position. he is a lead off hitter which would be nice to have. You cant factor in throwing arm to compare Brian Roberts and Matt Murton they play infield and outfield. Murton is a horrible fielder so don't try to tell me which I don't know how good he is that Roberts can be equal or worse than him.

 

secondly: Sorry for saying you guys just know that a few of you use that with Murton every time there is a post about him

 

thirdly: Pie he might be great in the minors, but you are making an assumption that he is better than 31 other CF's in baseball outside of Taveras that can not possibly be made right now in his career.

 

Leadoff hitter is not a position in the game of baseball.

what is your problem, I made a mistake on saying that if thats your best comeback on trying to make me look bad then u obviously have no case in that argument

 

I think you're still misunderstanding peoples' answers to your post. Being a "leadoff hitter" is not a meaningful role that a player fills. Jose Reyes isn't a good leadoff hitter -- he's a good hitter who bats first in the order. Obviously, he's the "leadoff hitter," but to believe this is a position/role that must be filled is illogical.

 

And I don't mean to sound rude, but without periods and commas, some of your posts are a bit tough to read.

Your not dont worry, but I corrected myself by saying just a leadoff hitter and he came back right after that saying that I said leadoff position which I didnt

 

I think you're missing the point.

 

Know im not I understand what you last two are trying to say, but UsSoccer said that twice to me soley for the purpose to make me sound dumb, which I corrected myself by saying its not a position, but there is a place in the order which is called the leadoff spot or leadoff hitter.

 

 

Hey Tim, completely unrelated, but can we get spell/grammar check from phpbb for Christmas this year?

[Abe Frohman]

Fair enough - we're hardly disagreeing, if at all, I think. Henderson probably would have been just as good hitting 2-8, though, I guess is the mathematical point. He got on base very well and stole a ton of bases efficiently. That's good whenever/wherever you get it.

 

The idea of a leadoff hitter having a certain role... i was gonna jump on you there, until saying that each inning had a leadoff hitter. That's a good point, though it's an aside to most "leadoff hitter" debates.

 

Well, I am sure you agree with me that guys with high OB% are best at the top of the order for a few reasons - most importantly they will get the most plate appearances. That is one reason why I am not a real big fan of Soriano at the top. The SLG% he brings is nice, but a great majority of his HR's could have caused more damage had he been hitting 3-4-5 with high OB% guys scoring on his hits.

 

I am sure that the good "Leadoff" hitter's skill gets lost in the shuffle after the 1st inning - but if they keep getting on base and the sluggers hitting 3-4-5 keep knocking them in, I think it DOES matter where a guy bats in the order (to an extent).

 

I'm sure you agree with that.

[Guest]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

[BigbadB]

And that's part of what people denigrate about making such a big deal about leadoff hitter. He's typically only the leadoff hitter for the first inning. Chances are he comes up in other situations during the game. So why go out of your way to find someone who fits that stereotype instead of just worrying about finding the best eight hitters you can?

 

But apply it to the Cubs, they had Soriano at the top, in front of Theriot for much of the season.

 

If they don't get someone like Roberts, it'll be costing them runs as Soriano isn't their best overall hitter so it doesn't utilize the lineup theory of giving your best hitter the most PAs and it puts a lower OBP guy in front of your best hitters.

 

The Cubs need hitter(s) to get on base and another middle of the order hitter, hopefully Roberts and Fukudome answer the need of OBP and shifting Soriano down to the 5th spot (hopefully) solves the bat in the middle.

 

If all these rumors pan out and the Cubs end up with Roberts, Fukudome and Figgins and if DeRosa can field SS adequately enough to make Theriot the super sub, this Cub team will be scary good. The OBP of the entire line up will be :shock: excellent.

[Guest]

Hey Tim, completely unrelated, but can we get spell/grammar check from phpbb for Christmas this year?

Might I suggest switching to Firefox, that has a spell check built in?

[VanceJergins]

And that's part of what people denigrate about making such a big deal about leadoff hitter. He's typically only the leadoff hitter for the first inning. Chances are he comes up in other situations during the game. So why go out of your way to find someone who fits that stereotype instead of just worrying about finding the best eight hitters you can?

 

But apply it to the Cubs, they had Soriano at the top, in front of Theriot for much of the season.

 

If they don't get someone like Roberts, it'll be costing them runs as Soriano isn't their best overall hitter so it doesn't utilize the lineup theory of giving your best hitter the most PAs and it puts a lower OBP guy in front of your best hitters.

 

The Cubs need hitter(s) to get on base and another middle of the order hitter, hopefully Roberts and Fukudome answer the need of OBP and shifting Soriano down to the 5th spot (hopefully) solves the bat in the middle.

 

If all these rumors pan out and the Cubs end up with Roberts, Fukudome and Figgins and if DeRosa can field SS adequately enough to make Theriot the super sub, this Cub team will be scary good. The OBP of the entire line up will be :shock: excellent.

 

I'd like to replace Figgins with Bradley or Hamilton please.

[CUBZ99]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

 

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

[Geech]

Well, I am sure you agree with me that guys with high OB% are best at the top of the order for a few reasons - most importantly they will get the most plate appearances.

 

Guys that are good hitters are best at the top of the order, however they achieve that.

[Guest]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

 

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

Again, you can't just count sb as doubles, though.

[BleacherBadger]

Hey Tim, completely unrelated, but can we get spell/grammar check from phpbb for Christmas this year?

Might I suggest switching to Firefox, that has a spell check built in?

 

That's why he is where he is, folks.

[BigbadB]

And that's part of what people denigrate about making such a big deal about leadoff hitter. He's typically only the leadoff hitter for the first inning. Chances are he comes up in other situations during the game. So why go out of your way to find someone who fits that stereotype instead of just worrying about finding the best eight hitters you can?

 

But apply it to the Cubs, they had Soriano at the top, in front of Theriot for much of the season.

 

If they don't get someone like Roberts, it'll be costing them runs as Soriano isn't their best overall hitter so it doesn't utilize the lineup theory of giving your best hitter the most PAs and it puts a lower OBP guy in front of your best hitters.

 

The Cubs need hitter(s) to get on base and another middle of the order hitter, hopefully Roberts and Fukudome answer the need of OBP and shifting Soriano down to the 5th spot (hopefully) solves the bat in the middle.

 

If all these rumors pan out and the Cubs end up with Roberts, Fukudome and Figgins and if DeRosa can field SS adequately enough to make Theriot the super sub, this Cub team will be scary good. The OBP of the entire line up will be :shock: excellent.

 

I'd like to replace Figgins with Bradley or Hamilton please.

 

I'd like that too, but it's not likely with this administration. I'm okay with Figgins. I'd imagine by adding Figgins, they could slide Fukudome down towards the middle of the order. And if they had all these guys, Fukudome's OBP hitting down in the order wouldn't actually be a bad thing for once.

[UK1679666180]

 

If all these rumors pan out and the Cubs end up with Roberts, Fukudome and Figgins and if DeRosa can field SS adequately enough to make Theriot the super sub, this Cub team will be scary good. The OBP of the entire line up will be :shock: excellent.

 

Without fleecing the farm, I don't that see that happening. I'm on the fence as far as Roberts becoming a Cub, expecting Fukudome to be a Cub, and not expecting Figgins to be on the Cubs.

 

Roberts and Fukudome allows Pie to hit 8th (saves some $ and players) and gives the Cubs a very good defensive OF.

[Electron Blue]

Fair enough - we're hardly disagreeing, if at all, I think. Henderson probably would have been just as good hitting 2-8, though, I guess is the mathematical point. He got on base very well and stole a ton of bases efficiently. That's good whenever/wherever you get it.

 

The idea of a leadoff hitter having a certain role... i was gonna jump on you there, until saying that each inning had a leadoff hitter. That's a good point, though it's an aside to most "leadoff hitter" debates.

 

Well, I am sure you agree with me that guys with high OB% are best at the top of the order for a few reasons - most importantly they will get the most plate appearances. That is one reason why I am not a real big fan of Soriano at the top. The SLG% he brings is nice, but a great majority of his HR's could have caused more damage had he been hitting 3-4-5 with high OB% guys scoring on his hits.

 

I am sure that the good "Leadoff" hitter's skill gets lost in the shuffle after the 1st inning - but if they keep getting on base and the sluggers hitting 3-4-5 keep knocking them in, I think it DOES matter where a guy bats in the order (to an extent).

 

I'm sure you agree with that.

 

yeah, really nothing in there I wouldn't go along with. Seeing "leadoff guy" just sets off bells in my head at this point, since so few people mean high OBP guy who deserves the most ABs. Really -- and the smarter people on the board may dispute this -- it makes sense to stack the order from highest OBP to lowest (very, very simplified reasoning there).

 

As for the second paragraph, you're almost just saying you want a good hitter to follow every other hitter in your lineup. Which is comparable I think to, "get the best eight hitters regardless of the mold they fit (and get the best hitters the most ABs)."

[ThePenguin11]

Hey Tim, completely unrelated, but can we get spell/grammar check from phpbb for Christmas this year?

Might I suggest switching to Firefox, that has a spell check built in?

 

Good point, but my spelling is superb. Just being a smart alec...

Edited December 6, 2007 by ThePenguin11

[CUBZ99]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

 

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

Again, you can't just count sb as doubles, though.

 

Apparently statistics aren't full proof? For the exact reasons that your stating. Which was precisely my point.

[Abe Frohman]

One of the worst lead off hitters the Cubs have had (excluding Corey Patterson) in the 2000's is Juan Pierre. He's the very definition of the "prototypical lead off guy". And he sucks.

 

Juan Pierre is the prototypical leadoff hitter for dummies who don't understand the value of high OB% at the top of the order. Even stolen bases are not really as important as the "reputation" of a leadoff hitter - and by that I mean a guy who gets on base and distracts the pitcher while he is trying to throw to a guy that can hurt him with the bat.

 

I don't know if any of that made sense.

[VanceJergins]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

 

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

Again, you can't just count sb as doubles, though.

 

Apparently statistics aren't full proof? For the exact reasons that your stating. Which was precisely my point.

 

MAJOR PWNAGE!!!!

[BigbadB]

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

 

14% isn't a pretty good rate. It might be an acceptable rate, but not a pretty good rate. Anytime you are making outs on the basepaths, you are taking a potential run off the board.

 

Now, take that 14% stolen base percentage and remove it from Roberts OBP, because that's a better measure of his OBP.

 

A speedy .350 lead off guy who gets caught stealing a lot is not as valuable as a slow .350 lead off guy who never gets caught stealing.

[Guest]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

 

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

Again, you can't just count sb as doubles, though.

 

Apparently statistics aren't full proof? For the exact reasons that your stating. Which was precisely my point.

You could just utilize more advanced metrics than OPS and that problem is taken care of. SB's and CS are factored into most of them.

[Guest]

Hey Tim, completely unrelated, but can we get spell/grammar check from phpbb for Christmas this year?

Might I suggest switching to Firefox, that has a spell check built in?

 

Good point, but my spelling is superb. Just being a smart alec...

Might I suggest everyone else switching to Firefox, then? :D

[treebird]

Apparently statistics aren't full proof? For the exact reasons that your stating. Which was precisely my point.

 

the stats here are fine so long as you don't try to do things like single + sb = double

 

also, foolproof

[Guest]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

 

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

Again, you can't just count sb as doubles, though.

 

Apparently statistics aren't full proof? For the exact reasons that your stating. Which was precisely my point.

 

MAJOR PWNAGE!!!!

Yeah, okay...

[Outshined_One]

Someone lock this thread, it's gone so far above and beyond its original point.

[VanceJergins]

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

Actually, it's not the same as turning singles into doubles. Doubles also have the benefit of driving in additional runs beyond what singles do.

 

Also, if you're going to list that benefit, you also have to take away the outs from his CS as a negative.

 

Fair enough, take away the CS and count the SB as 2B's i'm sure that his OPS would be far superior. In this case Roberts gets CS 14% that is pretty good rate.

Again, you can't just count sb as doubles, though.

 

Apparently statistics aren't full proof? For the exact reasons that your stating. Which was precisely my point.

 

MAJOR PWNAGE!!!!

Yeah, okay...

 

I thought about adding something else to make it seem more sarcastic....but I knew there were consequences either way.