Why are people in such a hurry to get Theriot out of town?

[Abe Frohman]

To argue Theriot would have put up a .280/.350 line (or whatever) in the majors when he was 23, given the numbers he put up in A/AA when he was 23, is just crazy. There's simply no basis for that conclusion.

 

I never argued that. I said that he may bounce back next year with those numbers, if he can hold the job.

 

Theriot was never in the Major Leagues when he was 23, so we will never know how he would have done. Cedeno was, and he was horrible. That is ok, because Cedeno has that under his belt now - whatever that is worth.

 

The reality (what I AM arguing) is that Ryan Theriot has been a MUCH better shortstop at the Major League level than Ronny Cedeno has been. IF Theriot had been on the Cubs when he was 23, he probably would have been overmatched, like Cedeno was.

[Guest]

Both players are totally different situations. When Theriot was in the lower minors, he was switch hitting - a failed experiment. Ronny is full of potential, I realize that - all I am saying is that you are NOT going back in time to put Theriot on the big league team just so you can prove that Ronny's crappy full season in 2006 would have been better than Theriots, should he have been in the ML's when he was 23. Like I said - we will never know.

 

Exactly right! Which is why it's not surprising that Cedeno would struggle when he first got to the bigs but as he improved on his plate discipline and other problems, he'd be more prepared. Meanwhile, Theriot has a more advanced approach helped by the fact that he broke in an as an every day player at age 27. That more advanced approach and older age helped him get a .326 OBP.

 

The reason I doubt it is because Theriot has some idea of plate discipline while Cedeno has none. He had a great season in AAA, and I think that it should help him in the future - but I think they are totally different types of hitters. Cedeno is a lot like Shawon Dunston - he has speed, a little pop, and might be a good Major League SS, but he is not going to take a walk, and probably won't have an OB% over .300, unless he hits over .300 - which is a pipedream.

 

IsoD of Ronny at AAA in 2006: .063 (.422 OBP). Seriously? He won't ever take a walk and won't ever have an OBP over .300 in the bigs?

 

Theriot has some plate discipline, and it wouldn't shock me to see him bounce back with a .280/.350 type season with a lot of runs scored and 30+ stolen bases - if he can hold on to the starting SS job.

 

Basically, Cedeno showed me enough in 2006. He has done nothing at the Major League level to show that he is anything but overmatched at the plate. He is a stupid baserunner, and erratic defensively. We are better off with Theriot unless someone else is acquired through trade.

 

And Cedeno can't improve from his first full season in the big leagues. That's because players who improve their plate discipline, hit far better at AAA than they ever have, hit better in the big leagues post-ASB [than Theriot when he was called up (in a limited sample size)] and are two years older and still young at the age of 25 never improve.

 

But Theriot will add 14 points to his BA and 24 points to his OBP in his second full season in the bigs. Got it.

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

[NewUserName]

 

Basically, Cedeno showed me enough in 2006. He has done nothing at the Major League level to show that he is anything but overmatched at the plate. He is a stupid baserunner, and erratic defensively. We are better off with Theriot unless someone else is acquired through trade.

 

 

Funny how many Cub fans were saying the same things about Ryne Sandberg in 82 and 83. Not that I am saying that Cedeno will be as good as Sandberg. Its just amazing how some fans think that if you are 24 and not an All-Star, the Cubs would be better off with the 28 year old who is only marginally better at best.

[Abe Frohman]

Exactly right! Which is why it's not surprising that Cedeno would struggle when he first got to the bigs but as he improved on his plate discipline and other problems, he'd be more prepared. Meanwhile, Theriot has a more advanced approach helped by the fact that he broke in an as an every day player at age 27. That more advanced approach and older age helped him get a .326 OBP.

 

Theriot broke in as an every day player? When?

 

IsoD of Ronny at AAA in 2006: .063 (.422 OBP). Seriously? He won't ever take a walk and won't ever have an OBP over .300 in the bigs?

 

If he does, I'll be very surprised and pleased.

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

 

OK, Ronny did have a great September, all 23 ab's of it. He walked once and k'd 6 times (about the norm). His 2 HR's and 7 RBI were good. If he comes out of Spring Training swinging the bat like that, I'm sure he'll stay at SS or 2B.

[Guest]

Exactly right! Which is why it's not surprising that Cedeno would struggle when he first got to the bigs but as he improved on his plate discipline and other problems, he'd be more prepared. Meanwhile, Theriot has a more advanced approach helped by the fact that he broke in an as an every day player at age 27. That more advanced approach and older age helped him get a .326 OBP.

 

Theriot broke in as an every day player? When?

 

"He broke in as an everyday player," not "he broke in to the majors." As in, his age 27 season was his first season as an everyday player.

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

 

OK, Ronny did have a great September, all 23 ab's of it. He walked once and k'd 6 times (about the norm). His 2 HR's and 7 RBI were good. If he comes out of Spring Training swinging the bat like that, I'm sure he'll stay at SS or 2B.

 

Yeah, it was a limited sample size but you said he's never shown anything at the ML level (by the way, that ignores his 2005 season too).

[Sammy Sofa]

OK, Ronny did have a great September, all 23 ab's of it. He walked once and k'd 6 times (about the norm). His 2 HR's and 7 RBI were good. If he comes out of Spring Training swinging the bat like that, I'm sure he'll stay at SS or 2B.

 

Dear Lord.

 

UNLESS HE IS TRADED, DEROSA IS THE SECOND BASEMAN FOR THE CUBS IN 2008.

 

Sorry for the "shouting," but the running theme amongst Theriot supporters that he or even Fontenot or anyone else should sniff 2nd base over DeRosa is one of the more absurd things in these threads.

[CUBZ99]

Why would you be so willing to have a guy with a OBP over .50 pts higher sit on the bench so you could play a guy with a career .600 OPS try to work it out? Maybe I'm crazy but, .55pts in OBP is a significant difference between players. Cedeno has already had over 500 Abs in one year to stuggle. Last year he had the same shot Theriot had to win the job. This isn't a beauty pagent, you play the player that gives you the best chance to win and so far that has been Theriot. Sure Cedeno can improve, but I'm not against making him earn it, rather than just blindly sticking with him because he looks like he should be a better player.

 

How does Cedeno earn it?

 

Why has Theriot earned *anything* since he's been below average?

 

Neither one has earned anything. However, based upon what we have seen at the majors from both of them Theriot has outperformed Cedeno. Everyone seems to think that by getting to start everyday Cedeno is magically going to transform into a better player. It didn't help him in 2006, and this year he had the same opportunity as Izturis and Theriot to win the starting job. In essesnce your options are between below average and terrible.

[Abe Frohman]

"He broke in as an everyday player," not "he broke in to the majors." As in, his age 27 season was his first season as an everyday player.

 

OK, I guess I read you wrong. I really need to stop posting from work....

 

Yeah, it was a limited sample size but you said he's never shown anything at the ML level (by the way, that ignores his 2005 season too).

 

Well, I was wrong then. He was pretty good at the end of 05 (and this September). He was just soooo bad in 06, and I think a lot of that probably had to do with Dusty Baker/Gene Clines.

 

I guess I am being a little hard on Cedeno. I'd love to see him work out.

 

I think if Theriot didn't have such a horrible September, some of you guys would be singing a different tune. When he went to the leadoff spot from August 6-26, he hit around .320 and scored 14 runs. He was seeming to thrive there, and on 8/28 he was hitting .288 with a .351 OB% for the year (that is with roughly a month left to play). Those numbers certainly don't suck.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Abe Frohman

[CUBZ99]

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

 

Theriot had a .999 OPS in September of 2006. Small sample size.

 

Cedeno had a decent September in 2005 also, and then followed it up with a dud of a season.

[Guest]

Well, I was wrong then. He was pretty good at the end of 05 (and this September). He was just soooo bad in 06, and I think a lot of that probably had to do with Dusty Baker/Gene Clines.

 

Dusty and Gene are awful on a young hitter. Lou came in and quickly identified that Ronny's problem was plate discipline. I'm not the biggest Lou fan around but thank goodness he's here instead of Dusty.

[NewUserName]

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

 

Theriot had a .999 OPS in September of 2006. Small sample size.

 

Cedeno had a decent September in 2005 also, and then followed it up with a dud of a season.

 

 

If the Cubs had a decent option at SS in 2006 and Cedeno spent the season in AAA. Everyone would be talking about Cedeno as a top prospect. Wondering why he isnt getting PT over Theriot. It would be very similar to Soto and Kendall. Instead he was overmatched in the Majors at a young age and this the preception that a lot of fans have of him. I dont think Cedeno is the savior, but he certainly has earned a chance to become the everyday SS.

[Guest]

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

 

Theriot had a .999 OPS in September of 2006. Small sample size.

 

Cedeno had a decent September in 2005 also, and then followed it up with a dud of a season.

 

Indeed, but I was commenting on Abe saying Ronny hasn't shown anything in the big leagues (no matter the sample size). No one is saying Theriot has not shown anything in the big leagues.

[XZero771679666304]

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

 

Theriot had a .999 OPS in September of 2006. Small sample size.

 

Cedeno had a decent September in 2005 also, and then followed it up with a dud of a season.

 

True, but the difference is that Cedeno has performed at a high level at the MiL level before, and is pretty clearly the more talented of the two.

 

Not that it counts for much, but if I had to put money on either one, it would have to be Cedeno.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think if Theriot didn't have such a horrible September, some of you guys would be singing a different tune. When he went to the leadoff spot from August 6-26, he hit around .320 and scored 14 runs. He was seeming to thrive there,

 

What is that thing about ifs and buts?

 

September was hardly his only bad month, it was pretty similar to June. But the point is the more he was exposed, the more his numbers looked like they were supposed to looked. He sucked this year, there's no way around that fact. He had a couple nice stretches, and a fabulous July, but when all was said and done, he sucked. And nobody can pretend they were surprised at where his numbers wound up, considering the type of player he's always been. He is, at his best, a fallback option if nothing else works out at SS.

 

Ronny might be more of a boom or bust player, but I will always take my chances with the guy who at least has a chance to be good, rather than settle for the guy who is a near lock to be bad. I don't want the Cubs to start 2008 with either guy starting. But if it's down to those guys, I think a team that is trying to be very good has to take it's chances on the player who at least stands a chance to help them be very good. Theriot can't, Cedeno might not, but he's got a chance.

 

But if they have to include DeRosa in a trade to get an impact bat somewhere, I wouldn't hesitate to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2nd base, where they could conceivably combine to an OPS somewhere between 760 and 800.

[CUBZ99]

 

By the way, you're right. Cedeno has never shown anything at the ML level to show he is anything but overmatched at the plate - least of all his 1.113 OPS in September.

 

Theriot had a .999 OPS in September of 2006. Small sample size.

 

Cedeno had a decent September in 2005 also, and then followed it up with a dud of a season.

 

 

If the Cubs had a decent option at SS in 2006 and Cedeno spent the season in AAA. Everyone would be talking about Cedeno as a top prospect. Wondering why he isnt getting PT over Theriot. It would be very similar to Soto and Kendall. Instead he was overmatched in the Majors at a young age and this the preception that a lot of fans have of him. I dont think Cedeno is the savior, but he certainly has earned a chance to become the everyday SS.

 

I agree, I hope the Cubs upgrade at SS, but if they don't it would be nice to see one of those guys have a break out year next year.

[fromthestretch]

Why would you be so willing to have a guy with a OBP over .50 pts higher sit on the bench so you could play a guy with a career .600 OPS try to work it out? Maybe I'm crazy but, .55pts in OBP is a significant difference between players. Cedeno has already had over 500 Abs in one year to stuggle. Last year he had the same shot Theriot had to win the job. This isn't a beauty pagent, you play the player that gives you the best chance to win and so far that has been Theriot. Sure Cedeno can improve, but I'm not against making him earn it, rather than just blindly sticking with him because he looks like he should be a better player.

 

How does Cedeno earn it?

 

Why has Theriot earned *anything* since he's been below average?

 

Neither one has earned anything. However, based upon what we have seen at the majors from both of them Theriot has outperformed Cedeno. Everyone seems to think that by getting to start everyday Cedeno is magically going to transform into a better player. It didn't help him in 2006, and this year he had the same opportunity as Izturis and Theriot to win the starting job. In essesnce your options are between below average and terrible.

 

None of them had a legit opportunity. Lou shuffled them around for a bit at the beginning of the season. All of a sudden, Theriot gets a start on 4/13 and gets three hits. After that, he pretty much became the starter. From that day through 5/19, he put up a line of .322/.379/.397, which no one here is complaining about. However, when he put up a line of .183/.240/.247 over the following month, no one else got a chance.

 

Cedeno's "chance" consisted of seven starts, only two of them consecutive, over the course of a month. He slumps, he doesn't get a chance to come out of it. Theriot hits like a pitcher (not named Owings or Zambrano) for a month, and he gets to play through it.

[SouthSideRyan]

OK, Ronny did have a great September, all 23 ab's of it. He walked once and k'd 6 times (about the norm). His 2 HR's and 7 RBI were good. If he comes out of Spring Training swinging the bat like that, I'm sure he'll stay at SS or 2B.

 

Dear Lord.

 

UNLESS HE IS TRADED, DEROSA IS THE SECOND BASEMAN FOR THE CUBS IN 2008.

 

Sorry for the "shouting," but the running theme amongst Theriot supporters that he or even Fontenot or anyone else should sniff 2nd base over DeRosa is one of the more absurd things in these threads.

 

You want absurd, try the redeye where they suggested A-Rod to SS, Theriot to RF.

[bukie]

OK, Ronny did have a great September, all 23 ab's of it. He walked once and k'd 6 times (about the norm). His 2 HR's and 7 RBI were good. If he comes out of Spring Training swinging the bat like that, I'm sure he'll stay at SS or 2B.

 

Dear Lord.

 

UNLESS HE IS TRADED, DEROSA IS THE SECOND BASEMAN FOR THE CUBS IN 2008.

 

Sorry for the "shouting," but the running theme amongst Theriot supporters that he or even Fontenot or anyone else should sniff 2nd base over DeRosa is one of the more absurd things in these threads.

 

You want absurd, try the redeye where they suggested A-Rod to SS, Theriot to RF.

 

Wow, yeah. I mean, A-Rod to SS?

[Rob]

This irrational love of Theriot is exactly the reason I'd rather he just be out of town entirely. People are letting emotions dictate their opinions about the man's potential, and that's where we start getting into trouble with guys "saving" us.

[Chocolate Milk]

Why is this thread 18 pages?

[UBlink]

Why is this thread 18 pages?

 

Because you don't have Premium - it seems so much better when it's only 14 pages. :)

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Why is this thread 18 pages?

 

Because you don't have Premium - it seems so much better when it's only 14 pages. :)

 

"why is this thread 14 pages?" is an equally good question

[jersey cubs fan]

Why is this thread 18 pages?

 

Because you don't have Premium - it seems so much better when it's only 14 pages. :)

 

"why is this thread 14 pages?" is an equally good question

 

Because the team is probably months away from being sold, we're weeks away from any significant roster movement, and it's been over a week since the Cubs' season ended. In other words, there's nothing else to talk about.

[CUBZ99]

This irrational love of Theriot is exactly the reason I'd rather he just be out of town entirely. People are letting emotions dictate their opinions about the man's potential, and that's where we start getting into trouble with guys "saving" us.

 

If you consider the comments in the last few pages about Theriot as love, you have a very low threshold for love. Most of the people who have anything good to say about him just say he may not turn out to be awful or that he is a better option than Cedeno. Hardly could be classified as love.

[Keener98]

Ive asked this question a couple times in this thread to the Theriot supporters, and Im still yet to get an answer.

 

Were those of you who are supporting Theriot, happy with Cesar Izturis?