SS needs - why Renteria or Tejada?

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Rentería's struggles in Boston were mostly due to a back and leg injury. Boston traded him because they were worried his injuries were going to be chronic, which turned out not be be the case.

[badnews]

Before he went to Atlanta, Renteria was still way more likely to put up a .735 OPS season than anything that stands out. I think before he went to Atlanta his career OPS was .740. With all the Jon Garland for Renteria rumors, I don't think we could match that easily and I wouldn't want to.

[UK1679666180]

If I was the Cubs and knowing their strengths and weaknesses, I would look at Keppinger of the Reds.

 

Everyone knows what Cincy needs, it happens to be one thing the Cubs have more than enough of.

 

Look into it, he's a great #2 type hitter, never overwhelmed me defenisvely like Theriot, but has a better bat than Theriot.

 

If they don't have the money or the resources to get Tejada/Renetria, Keppinger would be at the top of my list.

 

I believe Cincy will go with Alex Gonzalez as their starting SS and they have 2 more years of that bad contract remaining.

[Bruno7481]

If I was the Cubs and knowing their strengths and weaknesses, I would look at Keppinger of the Reds.

 

.

 

Who gave you that crazy idea?

[UK1679666180]

You might've, I don't recall. :)

[nilodnayr]

Before he went to Atlanta, Renteria was still way more likely to put up a .735 OPS season than anything that stands out. I think before he went to Atlanta his career OPS was .740. With all the Jon Garland for Renteria rumors, I don't think we could match that easily and I wouldn't want to.

 

Well we aren't talking about acquiring Renteria 3 years ago, we are talking about him now, coming off of an excellent and a very good two seasons.

 

Like I said, I'm not in love with Marshall, but if I'm ATL why would I rather have Jon Garland than Sean Marshall? Garland has even worse peripherals than Marshall, said his shoulder is "done", and is only under control for 1 year at 12M.

[badnews]

I've outlined above why I don't think Renteria is a good bet to replicate what he did in Atlanta here. I'm not a fan of buying at unconvincing highs. At least to me, I don't think the Cubs are the team where guys who hit their peak come to and continue that peak. Especially from "get more from less" places like Atlanta.

 

Most teams already have a Marshall, and it's hard to see him as the centerpiece of any big deal. Garland has had success in the past and he has the whole "I can Ted Lilly/Bronson Arroyo 2006 My Way Through the NL" thing going for him. Wandy Rodriguez is probably more valued because he's actually shown he can pitch a decent number of innings and can strike more guys out. I just don't buy it - we give Marshall the vote of no-confidence for Trachsel and he's a good trading chip? There's really no reason for the Braves to even value him above Jo Jo Reyes.

[jersey cubs fan]

I've outlined above why I don't think Renteria is a good bet to replicate what he did in Atlanta here. I'm not a fan of buying at unconvincing highs. At least to me, I don't think the Cubs are the team where guys who hit their peak come to and continue that peak. Especially from "get more from less" places like Atlanta.

 

Most teams already have a Marshall, and it's hard to see him as the centerpiece of any big deal. Garland has had success in the past and he has the whole "I can Ted Lilly/Bronson Arroyo 2006 My Way Through the NL" thing going for him. Wandy Rodriguez is probably more valued because he's actually shown he can pitch a decent number of innings and can strike more guys out. I just don't buy it - we give Marshall the vote of no-confidence for Trachsel and he's a good trading chip? There's really no reason for the Braves to even value him above Jo Jo Reyes.

 

Many teams might have a guy like Sean Marshall, but few of those guys have actually had success in the majors. Sean has, and that's a bonus.

 

I disagree with the thinking about Chicago not being a place where guys can continue their peak. Look at Ramirez and Lee, both are better as Cubs than they ever were before. DeRosa had a career year in 2006 and he more or less duplicated that in 2007. Heck, even Jacque Jones had one decent season before reverting back to his subpar ways this year. I do think there is cause for concern with Renteria, only because he's been inconsistent in his career. The thing is though, even if he has an off year, he's going to be a massive improvement over what the Cubs have, barring a complete collapse.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Tejada did have a .799 OPS in the AL East, without having the luxury of hitting against the Orioles pitchers. His post-ASB OPS was 822.

The AL East didn't seem to be a pitching hotbed anymore than any other league... he got to hit against the first half Yankee pitching and Devil Rays relievers too...

 

FWIW, here is the quality of pitchers faced in AVG/OBP/SLG allowed:

 

Edgar Renteria 0.253/0.337/0.404

Ryan Theriot 0.256/0.335/0.405

Miguel Tejada 0.252/0.330/0.398

 

can someone expl;ain these numbers? are they saying Theriot compares well to both Renteria and Tejada?

[jersey cubs fan]

Tejada did have a .799 OPS in the AL East, without having the luxury of hitting against the Orioles pitchers. His post-ASB OPS was 822.

The AL East didn't seem to be a pitching hotbed anymore than any other league... he got to hit against the first half Yankee pitching and Devil Rays relievers too...

 

FWIW, here is the quality of pitchers faced in AVG/OBP/SLG allowed:

 

Edgar Renteria 0.253/0.337/0.404

Ryan Theriot 0.256/0.335/0.405

Miguel Tejada 0.252/0.330/0.398

 

can someone expl;ain these numbers? are they saying Theriot compares well to both Renteria and Tejada?

 

It looks to me like they all faced very similar pitching, so the difference in their numbers is a reflection of the hitters.

[XZero771679666304]

I didnt say they would fall off the earth. What the Cubs would need to be A World Series contender is for them to improve. That is unlikely to happen at their age. I also think its unlikely that either Tejada or Renteria would preform at this highest ability. So whatever resources that it would take to get Renteria or Tejada would be best used in other areas. IMO

 

I honestly think as I have stated in other post is that the Cubs ought to help the Dodgers, by taking a couple of these young malcontents off their hands for a DLee or Soriano. If Frucal has to be thrown in to equal the money for a year I wouldnt mind.

 

If the Cubs replaced their 2007 SS production with a Renteria or Tejada level of production, I don't think they'd need improvement from Soriano and Lee to be among the best NL teams next year. The CF, RF and C situations would need to be stabilized though.

 

I think adding Renteria to the current offense would help a great deal. Also, I think that while you might not get much of a boost OPS-wise from Lee and Soriano, the Cubs will get more home runs and RBI from Lee, and benefit from Soriano not missing a month.

 

And while I am not counting on it, I think Soto will provide a significant boost to the production from the catcher position. RF is something else. Most of me wants to see Murton given the job, but part of me isn't so sure. I'd like to see some guaranteed production there so Pie can be given the CF job without compromising the offense too much. I'm confident Matt can do the job, but not convinced.

 

Pat Burrell intrigues me, but adding both he and Edgar isn't at all likely.

[weis21]

What about Clint Barmes? Colorado has no use for him anymore after Tulowitski's great year. I know he is by far no sure bet, but he put up a .815 OPS this past year at AAA and worth a look IMO. I don't keep up with the minor leagues very much, but I remember him being highly touted a few years back. Is he a legit option?

[jersey cubs fan]

What about Clint Barmes? Colorado has no use for him anymore after Tulowitski's great year. I know he is by far no sure bet, but he put up a .815 OPS this past year at AAA and worth a look IMO. I don't keep up with the minor leagues very much, but I remember him being highly touted a few years back. Is he a legit option?

 

They probably have no use for him because he stinks. .252/.293/.379 for an OPS+ of 66 in 1000 major league PA. And 815 OPS in AAA (Colorado Springs) is nothing. Cedeno blows that away and is 4 years younger.

[weis21]

What about Clint Barmes? Colorado has no use for him anymore after Tulowitski's great year. I know he is by far no sure bet, but he put up a .815 OPS this past year at AAA and worth a look IMO. I don't keep up with the minor leagues very much, but I remember him being highly touted a few years back. Is he a legit option?

 

They probably have no use for him because he stinks. .252/.293/.379 for an OPS+ of 66 in 1000 major league PA. And 815 OPS in AAA (Colorado Springs) is nothing. Cedeno blows that away and is 4 years younger.

 

thanks.

[BigbadB]

Colorado Springs baseball park is an EXTREME hitter's park.

[weis21]

thanks for answering my question, I don't keep up much with the minor leagues. hopefully the cubs can swing a deal for tejada because other than him i don't see many answers.

[badnews]

Many teams might have a guy like Sean Marshall, but few of those guys have actually had success in the majors. Sean has, and that's a bonus.

 

Most of his indicator numbers are mediocre, and again, he seems to hit a wall after a certain number of innings. He's not ideally suited to being a reliever. I don't think any AL team is going to bite. How many NL teams don't have better options?

 

I disagree with the thinking about Chicago not being a place where guys can continue their peak. Look at Ramirez and Lee, both are better as Cubs than they ever were before. DeRosa had a career year in 2006 and he more or less duplicated that in 2007. Heck, even Jacque Jones had one decent season before reverting back to his subpar ways this year. I do think there is cause for concern with Renteria, only because he's been inconsistent in his career. The thing is though, even if he has an off year, he's going to be a massive improvement over what the Cubs have, barring a complete collapse

 

We didn't give up much for Jones, DeRosa, Lee, or Ramirez. We're actually going to give up something for Renteria. Renteria's BABIP this year was .375. We had a cold spring in Chicago this year. Danger, danger Will Robinson.

 

This is a zero sum game. Is Renteria a "massive improvement" if he posts something like a .735 OPS like he typically does, minus Theriot's stolen bases, costs a lot more money, and the talent we trade for him goes on to be really good?

[squally1313]

I think most of us want to see Pie getting the majority of the starts in center field next year, with Soto being the number one catcher. To add another assumption, I think most of us agree that Murton is a better major league hitter than Theriot/Cedeno.

 

With no real center field free agents out there beyond the most likely expensive Andruw Jones coming off his worst season in a while, upgrading right field leaves us with Soto, Pie, and Cedeno/Theriot in the lineup.

 

Soto was amazing the last few weeks of the year, but it's a pretty small sample size. Yes, he tore it up in AAA, but so did Cedeno, and we haven't seen much out of him in the majors yet, admittedly again with a small sample size. Pie is more or less the same thing.

 

Basically my point is that upgrading right field, where as someone pointed out we still OPSed 6th in the NL at the position last year, leaves us with 3 relatively unknowns in the lineup, in addition to Theriot who we pretty much know adds nothing. I personally don't feel comfortable going into 2008 with a $100+ million dollar payroll and having Soto, Pie, Theriot, and Cedeno make up our 6, 7, 8 spots.

 

Yes, trading for Tejada (IMO, clearly the superior choice to Renteria) is a short-term decision, and in a couple years we would be back in the same spot we are now at Short. But the key offensive players, Lee, Ramirez and Sori, are all in their late 20s, early 30s, arguably in the prime, or just past the prime of their careers. With our pitching staff around that same situation, combined with the unclear ownership situation and the amount of money we already have tied into the future, it looks like right now is the time to make a move for the present.

 

Tejada blocks Cedeno, who has done everything he needs to in the minors to deserve a shot with the Cubs, but having him on the bench, compared to Theriot being the first guy off, allows Cedeno to fill in at second and let DeRosa move around where needed. Let Murton get the majority of the starts in right, and if he struggles then you can start platooning him with Jacque, who hopefully would step it up in a contract year. While no one wants to see Marquis in the rotation, he's going to be our number 4 starter for the next 2 years, which means we have a good amount of talent fighting for the number 5 spot. If Marshall's value is high enough to Baltimore, then I think you have to deal him, and hope Hart/Prior/Dempster/etc can come close to his numbers, knowing that you've significantly upgraded your production at Short.